Group dance photography settings help

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kendun

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Dear all,

I have been asked to help out with taking photos of group dances, at my daughter's dance programme. I have been informed that the necessary consent / permission from parents will be arranged by the organisers. I think I'll be assisting the main photographer with taking additional pictures.

I have the following bodies + lenses - Nikon D70 + Nikon 70 -200 2.8 Version 1 , a nikon D7000 + tamron non VC 17 -50 and 50 1.8. I don't have experience of dance photography and have started taking pictures of my daughter practising.

I'd like some help and advice from TP members. I am currenty trying to shoot on shutter priority mode with ISO upto a max of 1600 as RAW images. I am new to shutter priority as I use Aperture priority 98 % of the time and the output isn't what I want. I have tried to search on TP but havent managed to find relevant threads, any links to older threads would be good.

Would manual mode be better? Any suggestions/help aould be appreciated. I look forward to your comments
 
The only advantage in using manual settings in that situation, is that the exposure wont change, shot to shot, because of the subject matter. Provided the light remains the same you will get a full set of tones.

however you still have to establish the correct setting. You can use the camera as an exposure meter to do this.
an incident meter would be better for this, as you could take exposure settings for a few shooting positions before you start, and it gives extremely consistant results.
Then change them on the camera as you move around.
Old fashioned perhaps but it works.
 
Hi terrywoodenpuc, thank you fir your comments and advice. Is an incident meter a light meter? I don't want to be buying anything additional as I'll need to learn to use it as well as , this will probably be a one off .

Do you think sticking to shutter mode is better? Any tips on the settings I could aim for?

I have read on the net about not going less than 1/125 and on the telezoom not less than 1/400 due to crop factor.
 
Are these going to be shot inside? Do you have a flash or are you just going to rely on higher ISO? If it's the latter, you could try manually setting the shutter speed and aperture you want and the putting ISO on auto (with a pre-set upper limit which produces usable shots).
 
kendun said:
Dear all,

I have been asked to help out with taking photos of group dances, at my daughter's dance programme. I have been informed that the necessary consent / permission from parents will be arranged by the organisers. I think I'll be assisting the main photographer with taking additional pictures.

I have the following bodies + lenses - Nikon D70 + Nikon 70 -200 2.8 Version 1 , a nikon D7000 + tamron non VC 17 -50 and 50 1.8. I don't have experience of dance photography and have started taking pictures of my daughter practising.

I'd like some help and advice from TP members. I am currenty trying to shoot on shutter priority mode with ISO upto a max of 1600 as RAW images. I am new to shutter priority as I use Aperture priority 98 % of the time and the output isn't what I want. I have tried to search on TP but havent managed to find relevant threads, any links to older threads would be good.

Would manual mode be better? Any suggestions/help aould be appreciated. I look forward to your comments
Click to expand...

Are they on stage with lights?
 
kendun said:
Hi terrywoodenpuc, thank you fir your comments and advice. Is an incident meter a light meter? I don't want to be buying anything additional as I'll need to learn to use it as well as , this will probably be a one off .

Do you think sticking to shutter mode is better? Any tips on the settings I could aim for?

I have read on the net about not going less than 1/125 and on the telezoom not less than 1/400 due to crop factor.
Click to expand...


I think you are going to have to define the setting and conditions you will be in, a bit more, before we can give any useful hints.

Lighting, distance and freedom to move your position etc.
 
Dude, The question is almost impossible to answer. The lighting conditions are the lowest common denominator here (as always). Also, are you trying to shoot one dancer on a stage at a time or the whole troop? What kind of shots are you trying to achieve? How will they be used? If you're assisting why not contact the main photographer and ask him what he wants you to do. When you're there, copy his settings etc?

I've shot at many live gigs and never used shutter priority always AV (with an eye in the viewfinder watching shutter speeds) but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If lighting is changing constantly then so will your settings requirements and quickly if in manual. Flash is usually a no no at any live performance so high iso is often your friend. If outdoors during the day then no problem. If indoors, then no-one here will be able to help you exactly.

If generic advice is what you're after and its indoors then; I set iso as high as camera will give me good results for the medium the pics are intended then open up lens as wide as it will go and hopefully can pull back both from there during the show. Not rocket science but it works....mostly. High f numbers are usually hard to achieve indoors at a show with lights. The dance shows my daughter has been in I have been glad I'm not taking pics at as the light has been appalling!!! Single spot focussing on the faces and if they're moving lots then servo can help...

If fast movement then don't be obsessed with 'freezing' everything as motion helps give a sense of movement etc which is what dance is all about. Zoom is better than prime given moving fingers is easier than moving positions at the event. If you can move around then do so a lot to avoid 'same' pics, close to stage is also better as obstructions are a pain therefore wider lens is handier but depends on venue set up and organisers importance of the pics. Also, be aware of the patrons, if in front keep low and move around to avoid hacking parents off!

Finally, if a show with altering lights etc then forget any light meter settings from the start. Conditions will constantly change dramatically and access anyway to the venue beforehand with the appropriate lighting conditions is usually nigh on impossible. Trust your camera's metering and have some fun.

There, easy huh?
 
Thank you everyone for your comments and advice. I have quoted everyone, i think....

It's an indoor dance programme, in a school with stage lights predominantly focussed from the top I think. I was a visitor last year and don't remember any lighting from a floor level.Flash will not be allowed. I think I will have the freedom to move along as long as I am not blocking the views of parents.

Predominantly, I'll be shooting the whole troop, the odd performance will be a single dancer . Rich,Terry,Shaheed and Ian thank you for your advice guys. I will use AV as that's what I am normally used to, I thought dance being a fast action performance shutter priority was the natural mode. I am trying to access the main photographer to ask for tips, havent managed to contact the person yet - I have texted the organisers and waiting to hear
 
As above, we have no way of telling you 'settings' because we're not there.

But one tip I will give.
If you decide that your max ISO is 1600 and there's not enough light for a decent shutter speed, you'll have a load of clean but blurry images. You'd be better at max ISO where you can get sharp noisy images. NR software can help a bit, but no parent will complain about some noise on an otherwise perfect picture of their child. The same can't be said if you turn their child into a blurry blob. Only photographers care about noise.
 
Phil V said:
As above, we have no way of telling you 'settings' because we're not there.

But one tip I will give.
If you decide that your max ISO is 1600 and there's not enough light for a decent shutter speed, you'll have a load of clean but blurry images. You'd be better at max ISO where you can get sharp noisy images. NR software can help a bit, but no parent will complain about some noise on an otherwise perfect picture of their child. The same can't be said if you turn their child into a blurry blob. Only photographers care about noise.
Click to expand...
Thank you Phil,I'll increase the ISO a tad more and see how the images are.
 
Phil V said:
You might not need to, but it's a daft assumption to have in mind a max ISO before you turn up.;)
Click to expand...

Phil, I have been out of the hobby for a while now and am trying to get back into it, so very , very rusty now and any help /advice is definitely appreciated. Thank you for the help :)
 
If a troop then you'll have to increase the aperture and it'll likely be dark. Take phils advice and pump that ISO up! Best to try to get each dancer separately if not too many, or when they line up! Get to the front, keep moving and keep your head down. Back and knees won't know what's hit em!
 
Rich_Ellis said:
If a troop then you'll have to increase the aperture and it'll likely be dark. Take phils advice and pump that ISO up! Best to try to get each dancer separately if not too many, or when they line up! Get to the front, keep moving and keep your head down. Back and knees won't know what's hit em!
Click to expand...
Will do Rich. Going to search for some relatively cheap noise removal software as well
 
kendun said:
Dear all,

I am currenty trying to shoot on shutter priority mode with ISO upto a max of 1600 as RAW images. I am new to shutter priority as I use Aperture priority 98 % of the time and the output isn't what I want. I have tried to search on TP but havent managed to find relevant threads, any links to older threads would be good.

Would manual mode be better?
Click to expand...

kendun said:
Hi terrywoodenpuc, thank you fir your comments and advice. Is an incident meter a light meter? I don't want to be buying anything additional as I'll need to learn to use it as well as , this will probably be a one off .

Do you think sticking to shutter mode is better? Any tips on the settings I could aim for?

I have read on the net about not going less than 1/125 and on the telezoom not less than 1/400 due to crop factor.
Click to expand...

It's going to be a challenging but fun shoot. It's likely to be fairly dim with constantly changing lights, white balance all over the place and lots of motion. Now probably isn't the time to learn to use an incident meter or manual mode.

I would definitely use spot metering to ensure that the subjects were correctly exposed - I find it more predictable than the other metering modes. I'd shoot raw to get a bit of latitude. As already said, don't restrict yourself to ISO 1600.

As a rough guide, to fill the frame with someone walking and freeze their motion then you'll need upwards of 1/250s. To freeze the extremities of a dancer mid jump - again, if they're filling a fair portion of the frame - then you'll need 1/2000s. You'll get away with rather slower if you can time your shot so you get them at the peak of a jump, and slower still for wider shots.

Aiming for some deliberate blur is a good call, though you'll probably want to ensure that faces are fairly sharp.

One last tip - don't just repeat the shots of the other photographer. See whether you can do something different; perhaps shoot from the side of the stage (if your camera is fairly quiet).
 
good grief :) OK in my opinion.....

your in a school hall.. the lights are constant. there are multiple dancers.....

Set you camera to Manual.. do NOT set to shutter priority or any other semi auto mode as two many things on stage can fool the camera and you will end up with too dark and overly light pictures..as well as good ones.. Set to manual and they will be all good or all bad haha

Do not shoot at side or front of stage.. get yourself to the back of the room in an elevated position.. find out first if anything natural you can climb on.. if not then take a step ladder... This way you will get all dancers left to right but more important front to back.. the dancers at the back cant be photographers from front or side of stage.. take a wide and a ZOOM lens so you can do a few close ups as well..

One thing.. you say your assisting the official photogrpaher... you should really be taking advice from him not us:)

heres one I did under very demanding lights with massive spotlight in one part and dark areas in the other...
lancs_tel.jpg
 
Last edited:
KIPAX said:
good grief :) OK in my opinion.....



Set you camera to Manual.. do NOT set to shutter priority or any other semi auto mode as two many things on stage can fool the camera and you will end up with too dark and overly light pictures..as well as good ones.. Set to manual and they will be all good or all bad haha

One thing.. you say your assisting the official photogrpaher... you should really be taking advice from him not us:)
Click to expand...

Getting the details of the main photographer is being a bit tricky now, I'll be meeting the organisers over the weekend hopefully as comms about the main tog have ceased.... My gut feeling's that the main tog has dropped out .... I have made it clear that I was willing to help not be the main tog, lets see what the plans are ..
 
kendun said:
Getting the details of the main photographer is being a bit tricky now, I'll be meeting the organisers over the weekend hopefully as comms about the main tog have ceased.... My gut feeling's that the main tog has dropped out .... I have made it clear that I was willing to help not be the main tog, lets see what the plans are ..
Click to expand...


Have they got you interested then elbowed the main guy to save some money.....erk :)
 
KIPAX said:
Have they got you interested then elbowed the main guy to save some money.....erk :)
Click to expand...

It's a charity group/show and the main chap would have been doing it voluntarily,someone did it voluntary last year. I suspect the lack of payment/ money may be the cause here, I'm hoping to get an update over the weekend. If they me to be th emain photographer, I will make it clear that it's going to be hit and miss and ask whether they are willing to take the chance.

Kipax, I found your photos quite impressive. If I may ask, what shutter/aperture settings have you used for these shots? are these photos in a thread on TP?
 
www.kipax.com/schools

18th march 2015 :) All exif in place

Like I say.. lighting was all over the place if you look with very dark mostly to right and edges with massive spotlight middle left... really really difficult to work with :(
 
KIPAX said:
www.kipax.com/schools

18th march 2015 :) All exif in place

Like I say.. lighting was all over the place if you look with very dark mostly to right and edges with massive spotlight middle left... really really difficult to work with :(
Click to expand...

Kipax, I am getting quite nervous now.. if an experienced photographer like you found it very difficult, I think it's just a no brainer for me - I may very politely back out, if there isn't a main photographer. I don't want parents to be upset if photos aren't what they expected ...

How do I view the for your pics? Flickr used to be straightforward, is it something similar on your website?

Thank you for your help sir
 
kendun said:
Kipax, I am getting quite nervous now.. if an experienced photographer like you found it very difficult, I think it's just a no brainer for me - I may very politely back out, if there isn't a main photographer. I don't want parents to be upset if photos aren't what they expected ...

How do I view the for your pics? Flickr used to be straightforward, is it something similar on your website?

Thank you for your help sir
Click to expand...


oh dear.. mine was a really awkward venue.. the chances are you will have even lighting accross the stage.. these tried to be fancy ith spotlights.. Keep in mind everyhting is relative.. whatever you get will be miles betetr than anyhting they could get on the own....

I prseumed you would have an EXIF viewer plugin in your browser so you can right click any picture and see everything.. I use FXiF on firefox.. there all free and emans you can just right click a picture online and see all the exif :)
 
KIPAX said:
oh dear.. mine was a really awkward venue.. the chances are you will have even lighting accross the stage.. these tried to be fancy ith spotlights.. Keep in mind everyhting is relative.. whatever you get will be miles betetr than anyhting they could get on the own....

I prseumed you would have an EXIF viewer plugin in your browser so you can right click any picture and see everything.. I use FXiF on firefox.. there all free and emans you can just right click a picture online and see all the exif :)
Click to expand...

Thank you for the help Kipax. I will download an exif viewer plugin.

Even if another parent helped out with a DSLR, that would take a lot of pressure off me. Lets see :).
 
KIPAX said:
good grief :) OK in my opinion.....

your in a school hall.. the lights are constant. there are multiple dancers.....

Set you camera to Manual.. do NOT set to shutter priority or any other semi auto mode as two many things on stage can fool the camera and you will end up with too dark and overly light pictures..as well as good ones.. Set to manual and they will be all good or all bad haha

Do not shoot at side or front of stage.. get yourself to the back of the room in an elevated position.. find out first if anything natural you can climb on.. if not then take a step ladder... This way you will get all dancers left to right but more important front to back.. the dancers at the back cant be photographers from front or side of stage.. take a wide and a ZOOM lens so you can do a few close ups as well..

One thing.. you say your assisting the official photogrpaher... you should really be taking advice from him not us:)

heres one I did under very demanding lights with massive spotlight in one part and dark areas in the other...
Click to expand...

Hi Kipax,

I have been going through the photos in detail.It has been very ,very useful. Did you use spot metering?

Looks like you have constantly kept changing the shutter speed? This is where your experience helps. With me having used semi auto modes for a long time, I'll need to practise a bit.It looks like you predominantly used the Zoom lens,don't think there's any with your wide lens in this set. It has been very useful for me to decide which lens on which body etc. I would have planned to have stood in the fron to keep clicking away, but the views from your position's good. The seating's higer than the stage, it's like a lecture theatre.

I'll be practising in manual mode when my daughter's dancing to be prepared.

Thank you once again Kipax. It's really, really refreshing to see you share your exif, when a quite a few togs on this forum prefer not to. For learners like me, it's really invaluable to look at the exif.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
The only advantage in using manual settings in that situation, is that the exposure wont change, shot to shot, because of the subject matter. Provided the light remains the same you will get a full set of tones.

however you still have to establish the correct setting. You can use the camera as an exposure meter to do this.
an incident meter would be better for this, as you could take exposure settings for a few shooting positions before you start, and it gives extremely consistant results.
Then change them on the camera as you move around.
Old fashioned perhaps but it works.
Click to expand...

Ha! exactly how i do this type of thing :D
 
Hi folks,
A bit of feedback from me.

I did end up being one of the main photographers, as 'main' tog dropped out on the day..... it was another parent and me managing the photography on the day. It was bloody hard and an experience I wouldn't want to repeat, if I was being paid for this kind of photography.

While the main stage light stayed constant, one of the focus lamps was not working, leading to a bright light on one side of the stage and a dark area in the other. So pictures were either overexposing or underexposing.Some exposure compensation helped.I did take on board your advice about going to as high as ISO and that meant that the photos weren't blurred. I have emailed all the photos to the organisers.Will try to post some pictures later.
Trying to take pictures while being mindful of viewers/parents and not getting in their way etc was tricky. I did go back to take pictures from a height but it was too close for 70-200 and too far for my 17-50.An intersting and very helpful learning experience ......

Thank you everyone for helping me and providing advice.
 
Ah!
Next time you're asked for shots during the production. The time to take them is during technical rehearsals, then you don't have to worry about the audience.
 
Phil V said:
Ah!
Next time you're asked for shots during the production. The time to take them is during technical rehearsals, then you don't have to worry about the audience.
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,
I did take shots during the rehearsals,but the kids weren't wearing the costumes. It wasn't a proper dress rehearsal, more of a reharsal to get kids used to the space available on the stage etc. It's been a very useful learning experience overall.
 
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