'Grey' stock?

Chortes

Chortes

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Chris
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Hi, I'm not sure if this should be in this forum or the Beginners Forum so apologies if I've got this wrong.
I've seen references on various forums to 'grey' equipment / stock / prices and wondered what this referred to. Could someone enlighten me please.

Thanks
 
Hi,
Grey import is any equipment (not just photographic equipment) sold but not through the legitimate means, this does not mean that the equipment is fraudulent, it is original and made by the manufacturer but was intended to be sold in other countries.
Sometimes it is sold cheaper than you could normally buy in the UK.
 
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Graham said:
Hi,
Grey import is any equipment (not just photographic equipment) sold but not through the legitimate means, this does not mean that the equipment is fraudulent, it is original and made by the manufacturer but was intended to be sold in other countries.
Sometimes it is sold cheaper than you could normally buy in the UK.
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Thanks Graham. So not real issues with grey imports?
 
Chortes said:
Thanks Graham. So not real issues with grey imports?
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Depends where you get them from. I have used Panamoz for a lot of stuff (saved a fortune) and they have excellent CS with a 3 year warranty for cameras. Lots on here have used them as well, some members frown upon buying grey but personally I try to get the best bang for buck with my money.
 
Graham said:
Hi,
Grey import is any equipment (not just photographic equipment) sold but not through the legitimate means,.
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Go on then... I will ask.. please explain how it's not legitimate ?
 
I think I can see a can of worms being lined up here.......

Grey imports are very controversial, Chris. Some people are quite happy to make considerable savings with grey imports, despite the relevant taxes and duties not being paid. As long as you use one of the big names you should have no problems. Often their guarantees can be better than the official ones.

Others see it is a form of tax avoidance, leading to the closure of "bricks and mortar" official camera retailers, which can't compete on price with grey importers. However there appears to be a form of price fixing in operation, whereby many items - even those costing thousnds of £'s, are sold at the same price within a few pence across a whole range of official outlets. Whether these prices are set by the retailers or the importers is not clear to me, but they are their own worst enemy and the practice is bordering on illegal (in my opinion).
 
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Furtim said:
The main reason they are cheaper is they are sold via retailers who facilitate you avoiding paying VAT and (if applicable) import duty.
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Which mean the buyer is at fault (for not paying it) not the seller

I used to buy from the most famous UK grey importer KERSO as did many others on this forum.. :)

The biggest problem with UK imports can be the warranty.. your stuck with the sellers warranty as a lot of UK dealers will not honour anything grey

i bought a 6.5 thosuand pound lens from kerso saving about £600 .. But before I did I checked with Canon who informed me they would honour lens warranty from anywhere but only body warranty if a UK reciept ( I think this has changed now) and as a member of the CPS it was important that canon uk would honour any warranty i have.... so thats the biggest problem for me :)
 
I may be wrong but I have been given to understand that when China took over control of Hong Kong from the UK in the late eighties part of the deal was that companies with offices in both countries only had to pay taxes in one of them, so obviously they chose the one with lower taxes, I know that Panamoz have offices in both so they are perfectly legitimate so you are not breaking any laws buying from them, I don't know about any other companies.
I have no doubt these rules were not aimed at saving the likes of us a few quid but to placate the financial sector, I have saved myself quite a lot over the years and I am content that all my transactions have been above board.
 
Chortes said:
Thanks for the feed back, everyone.
I'm considering a Nikon D7200 from e-infinity (https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/2510/nikon_d7200_digital_slr_camera_body_only_kit_box). The only other option I can afford is MPB, used with a shutter use of 20K plus and the a 'saving' of £20.......
Is E-Infinity recognised as a good grey importer?
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A few members of TP have bought from them but there was a thread a while back about 'counterfeit' batteries coming from them.
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorless.688772/page-27#post-8433491
 
KIPAX said:
Go on then... I will ask.. please explain how it's not legitimate ?
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Not through authorised retailers.
Basically.
 
I realise this is quite controversial and everyone has their own thoughts on the subject but the saving is not to be sniffed at and unfortunately I would be buying if I had to pay high street prices.

Thanks to Old Bloke Bob, I'll look into the details of that one.

Thanks everyone, great info.
 
Chortes said:
Thanks for the feed back, everyone.
I'm considering a Nikon D7200 from e-infinity (https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/2510/nikon_d7200_digital_slr_camera_body_only_kit_box). The only other option I can afford is MPB, used with a shutter use of 20K plus and the a 'saving' of £20.......
Is E-Infinity recognised as a good grey importer?
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E-infinity are ok but you got to look at the customer service they provide, for example, 1 year warranty.
2 you have to send your item back at your expense then wait for your item to go back to China get repaired and then sent back to you. Could take 2-3 weeks.
Panamoz on the other hand,
3 year warranty and all repairs are done in the UK by whoever you send it to and you get the money back before (i believe) before repair is done.
 
gramps said:
How are they "not authorised", where do the likes of Panamoz get their stock from?
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Its not worth getting worked up on this subject. Case ends.
 
gramps said:
How are they "not authorised", where do the likes of Panamoz get their stock from?
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Canon for example has authorised UK dealers. My local camera shop cant sell Canons officially as there are rules and regs from Canon (plus stock levels etc) they dont have the turnover. They can supply Canons but cant buy from Canon direct. I don't think Nikon has the same system but there will be "official" Nikon dealers I'm sure and some sort of "official" listing.
The way around these "rules" is they buy overseas from I'm guessing a wholesaler in China or somewhere else. As mentioned this often affects the warrenty and there is the possible tax issue.
Personally I like to buy from my local dealer who is very helpfull and always good for a chat.
 
Has anyone been faced with a VAT bill when ordering from E-Infinity? They pay the import tax but don't state anything on VAT payments.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Canon for example has authorised UK dealers. My local camera shop cant sell Canons officially as there are rules and regs from Canon (plus stock levels etc) they dont have the turnover. They can supply Canons but cant buy from Canon direct. I don't think Nikon has the same system but there will be "official" Nikon dealers I'm sure and some sort of "official" listing.
The way around these "rules" is they buy overseas from I'm guessing a wholesaler in China or somewhere else. As mentioned this often affects the warrenty and there is the possible tax issue.
Personally I like to buy from my local dealer who is very helpfull and always good for a chat.
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Nikon have a similar 'cartel' of shops all selling equipment at the same price, some of which I have used (e.g. LCE, Jessops, John Lewis, Clifton Cameras) but many people dislike the hypocrisy of 'the system'. :)
 
All comes down to your view on the whole tax avoidance question
Some of the most self righteous people on here happily avoid UK duties and then spout all their make Britain great again crap.
No real answer, just comes down to how you feel on the matter
 
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FWIW as regards Panamoz
I bought my camera and lens from them and Tina in CS was great, I explained I was unhappy with the lens performance as I felt it was soft. She told me to pack it up with plenty of bubble wrap and they would send me the return documents which I printed out. There was actually about 8 pages of invoices for customs / vat / delivery and so on and the lens was sent to Kwun Tong, Hong Kong. After a few days I received a brand new lens via TNT which I thought was great service, would highly recommend Panamoz from my personal experience.
 
Chortes said:
I realise this is quite controversial and everyone has their own thoughts on the subject but the saving is not to be sniffed at and unfortunately I would be buying if I had to pay high street prices.
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You're mixing up two separate things, grey import just means you imported something from somewhere other than the manufacturer's preferred local channels which they don't like mostly because it messes with their local pricing, sometimes different regions have different specifications/features etc. They obviously don't want you to be doing this but have limited means to stop you as it's not wrong in any way, most common things are not offering warranty support across regions or minor things like preventing you changing language on the device etc.

The controversial part is tax evasion, yes it's normally what's happening when these discussions pop up but it's entirely possible to import something and pay all relevant taxes just the same as thousands of companies do every day without any issue.
 
One question not asked is, Do you want to put your hard earned money into a UK official dealership so they make a fat profit, or do you want to keep `more money into your own pocket?
Companies go under all the time, Jacobs for one and the old Jessops for another. I don't feel sorry for them. What they don't seem to realise is that with the internet they are now competing on a world wide scale. Before it was one local camera store against another local camera store. Cut prices or go under, plenty of internet companies only too willing to get your custom.
If you go to an authorised camera dealer and they close down what then? no recourse back to the dealership they have gone. Look at the problems caused with cameras in for repair and the shop closed, how do you get your camera back, loads of people had great difficulty I understand.

example new Nikon D810 uk price £2598 I got mine as a grey import for £1609 from ireland brand new in nov 2017, that included p/p as well. Still on ebay for around £1700 obviously again grey imports. Almost £900 markup is taking the p***
 
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old bloke said:
I may be wrong but I have been given to understand that when China took over control of Hong Kong from the UK in the late eighties part of the deal was that companies with offices in both countries only had to pay taxes in one of them, so obviously they chose the one with lower taxes, I know that Panamoz have offices in both so they are perfectly legitimate so you are not breaking any laws buying from them, I don't know about any other companies.
I have no doubt these rules were not aimed at saving the likes of us a few quid but to placate the financial sector, I have saved myself quite a lot over the years and I am content that all my transactions have been above board.
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The companies are legitimate, and you are not breaking any laws when buying from them if you correctly declare the value of the goods as the importer and pay the required taxes.

If however you fail to make the correct declaration, rely on the companies declaration (often incorrect), and don't pay the duty, then, well - you are breaking the law. Whether it's material enough for anyone to be bothered is a matter for personal concience.
 
realspeed said:
One question not asked is, Do you want to put your hard earned money into a UK official dealership so they make a fat profit, or do you want to keep `more money into your own pocket?
Companies go under all the time, Jacobs for one and the old Jessops for another. I don't feel sorry for them. What they don't seem to realise is that with the internet they are now competing on a world wide scale. Before it was one local camera store against another local camera store. Cut prices or go under, plenty of internet companies only too willing to get your custom.
If you go to an authorised camera dealer and they close down what then? no recourse back to the dealership they have gone. Look at the problems caused with cameras in for repair and the shop closed, how do you get your camera back, loads of people had great difficulty I understand.

example new Nikon D810 uk price £2598 I got mine as a grey import for £1609 from ireland brand new in nov 2017, that included p/p as well. Still on ebay for around £1700 obviously again grey imports. Almost £900 markup is taking the p***
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Its not the shop at fault here, the UK distribution channels also cause the price to be hiked. An authorised dealer has to buy their stock through the manufacturers official distribution. Most of the 'new' camera equipment in bricks and mortar shops is on single digit margins, some not even that, the shop gets an annual cashback depending how much they have sold during the year. The manufacturers need to look at themselves with regard to this. I certainly wouldn't want to run a business with a decreasing market turnover on single digit margins, along with being forced to hold a certain stock level to gain 'authorised status'
 
old bloke said:
I may be wrong but I have been given to understand that when China took over control of Hong Kong from the UK in the late eighties part of the deal was that companies with offices in both countries only had to pay taxes in one of them, so obviously they chose the one with lower taxes, I know that Panamoz have offices in both so they are perfectly legitimate so you are not breaking any laws buying from them, I don't know about any other companies.
I have no doubt these rules were not aimed at saving the likes of us a few quid but to placate the financial sector, I have saved myself quite a lot over the years and I am content that all my transactions have been above board.
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That's very interesting, I've not seen that before. Do you have any links to info regarding this? I always assumed that, as they always massively under price items on the shipping info that they are avoiding duty.
 
gramps said:
Nikon have a similar 'cartel' of shops all selling equipment at the same price, some of which I have used (e.g. LCE, Jessops, John Lewis, Clifton Cameras) but many people dislike the hypocrisy of 'the system'. :)
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Mr Perceptive said:
Its not the shop at fault here, the UK distribution channels also cause the price to be hiked. An authorised dealer has to buy their stock through the manufacturers official distribution.
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These two comments seem to confirm what i was saying above: which is that in effect price fixing is going on amongst the main official outlets. Whether that is imposed upon them by the official importers or by agreement amongst themselves I don't know but it is bordering on being illegal. Between them the official importers and the official outlets are their own worst enemy. There is no competition at all in some cases. No wonder people buy grey!
 
I bought my Olympus EM5MK2 kit from HDEW and the body came with a 3 year warranty and saved hundreds.

Service was spot on and I'll probably be getting my EM1 MK2 from there as well.

Be stupid not to really.
 
footman said:
What about serial numbers, is it possible to detect grey imports with information given to HMRC by the manufacturers?
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I believe that you can see where a product was 'destined for' based on serial numbers. I've never been stopped by customs at the airport but of course it could happen, but I wouldn't have the receipt for anything on me, so I wouldn't be able to prove where anything was bought really. If you've bought online you could always show them the order confirmation email on your phone, whether that would suffice or not I have no idea.
 
Let's be honest HMRC and the equipment manufacturers could stop this whole scenario almost overnight if there was the will to do so.
 
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