Grey imports

[fracster]

and

b) people that buy HK imports and then use them for business (without declaring them)

But,they surely cannot offset those goods against tax if they are imported illegally?

Not an argumentative post,just something that baffles me. Say a sports photographer buys a £6 grand 400 F2.8. If legitimate UK he can offset that against his tax? If he saves a grand by importing his "Toy repair kit" ,or whatever, then surely he cannot offset his imported goods? Thus, not saving a kin thing really.

 

[DemiLion]

But,they surely cannot offset those goods against tax if they are imported illegally?

Not an argumentative post,just something that baffles me. Say a sports photographer buys a £6 grand 400 F2.8. If legitimate UK he can offset that against his tax? If he saves a grand by importing his "Toy repair kit" ,or whatever, then surely he cannot offset his imported goods? Thus, not saving a kin thing really.

You're right - but whomever it is, is still using an unfair advantage to then charge for their services (ie initially cheaper kit -even if it isn't offset).

Mind you, if someone is using undeclared HK imports, do you really think that they are registered with HMRC?

 

[ukaskew]

It's an incredibly delicate issue. My biggest problem is that in the Panamoz thread you get people asking about the positive and negatives of buying from them, anyone who tries to clarify exactly what is going on is quickly pounced upon.

A number of people have been fairly aggressive towards those who point out the tax implications (it was suggested to me that I never post in the thread again!). So, it appears to me, not only is it ok to discuss a highly dubious activity quite openly on the forum, it's almost as if those who are explaining what is actually going on to prospective customers are the ones who are in the wrong.

The irony is this has been highlighted by the administrator himself in this very thread, those who point out what is happening are all of a sudden questioned on their tax situation and previous criminal history! What has that got to do with anything? The fact remains that people are openly discussing tax evasion here.

I have no thoughts either way on this sites advertising activities, but I do feel the rules we all agree to regarding the discussing of illegal activities are being ignored when it comes to the discussion of tax evasion (not grey importing, which is legal).

 

[welshwizard645]

We're all discussing this while UK retailers are disappearing one by one, with Jessops disappearing there is less choice which makes it even more attractive for some to buy from abroad. I've bought some stuff in Japan, because a) I was there, b) I was tempted and c) the the pound was then worth 220 YEN...but as SWMBO has been looking for a 7D recently we notice that UK prices are more or less within £10 of each other, Park said they have no margin on the camera body - it's the same when I look for Nikkor lenses - very very little variation which goes to show how much the manufacturers control the prices. Effectively the UK market is being constricted and thus the chances of a good bargain disappears....

 

[Matt]

It's an incredibly delicate issue. My biggest problem is that in the Panamoz thread you get people asking about the positive and negatives of buying from them, anyone who tries to clarify exactly what is going on is quickly pounced upon.

A number of people have been fairly aggressive towards those who point out the tax implications (it was suggested to me that I never post in the thread again!). So, it appears to me, not only is it ok to discuss a highly dubious activity quite openly on the forum, it's almost as if those who are explaining what is actually going on to prospective customers are the ones who are in the wrong.

The irony is this has been highlighted by the administrator himself in this very thread, those who point out what is happening are all of a sudden questioned on their tax situation and previous criminal history! What has that got to do with anything? The fact remains that people are openly discussing tax evasion here.

I have no thoughts either way on this sites advertising activities, but I do feel the rules we all agree to regarding the discussing of illegal activities are being ignored when it comes to the discussion of tax evasion (not grey importing, which is legal).

so what is the answer? the question of tax evasion only arises when someone asks about importing from outside the EU, and its nearly always someone saying 'but its tax evasion'.

As stated more than once, it is up to the BUYER to declare the goods when they receive them. by stating that it up to them, we are clarifying the position. if we delete every mention of importing then lots of threads will disappear.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Out of interest, did people only 'take offence' at others buying from panamoz (and others) since the recent hoo-hah about starbucks / amazon, or is this a long held conviction?

 

[Matt]

to further clarify

Buying from outside the UK/EU is not illegal

so if someone buys from DR, Panamoz, One Stop or any other offshore outfit, they are not breaking the law
if, however, when the package arrives, and is mislabelled, then it is THE BUYER who needs to declare the goods. You can then claim the duty from the seller as they state they will refund any charges.

that is the correct way to import, if you dont do that then you are evading tax.

im not sure what bit of the above is discussion of illegal activities, if we remove all references to importing then the above now says

so if someone buys from DR, Panamoz, One Stop or any other offshore outfit, they are not breaking the law
if, however, when the package arrives, and is mislabelled, then it is THE BUYER who needs to declare the goods. You can then claim the duty from the seller as they state they will refund any charges.

that is the correct way to import.

there isnt much difference, or should more of that be censored?

discussion of file sharing and other naughties are prohibited as we, as forum administrators, would be at fault for allowing the links. it isnt illegal to buy products from where you want, its what YOU do when it arrives at YOUR HOUSE that is the issue, nothing to do with the internet.

 

[Stuart M]

Not really photography related, I know, but some years ago I had to import a lathe part from the US because I couldn't find one available in the UK. HMRC themselves sent me a bill for the import duty costs and only released the item to me once I'd paid it.

 

[big soft moose]

With Digital Rev, the Tax is billed directly to them. As I understand, they get away with most of their imports being untaxed. They add a small amount onto their price that reflects the 'average' number of times they are caught out, so that you never have to pay the full-whack

given that matty is absolutely right about the indivual being liable for the import tax , i have to wonder whats going on here (as per David's description)

What exactly are D'rev adding to their prices for ?

Also although the individual is responsible for the tax, if the company misdescribes the parcel they are still 'conspiring to evade..' although theres not much HMRC can do to a HK based company anyway

 

[Matt]

Out of interest, did people only 'take offence' at others buying from panamoz (and others) since the recent hoo-hah about starbucks / amazon, or is this a long held conviction?

many of the people who were outraged by Starbucks where actually in Starbucks at the time the story broke, must have been a shock for them.

Not really photography related, I know, but some years ago I had to import a lathe part from the US because I couldn't find one available in the UK. HMRC themselves sent me a bill for the import duty costs and only released the item to me once I'd paid it.

HK has different trade agreements with the UK as it used to be part of the UK.

 

[big soft moose]

Not really photography related, I know, but some years ago I had to import a lathe part from the US because I couldn't find one available in the UK. HMRC themselves sent me a bill for the import duty costs and only released the item to me once I'd paid it.

thats because lathe parts tend to come in a bleddy great crate via shipping agent and its obvious what it is - camera equipment tends to come in the post in anonymous (or miscdescribed) parcels which is why a lot of people are getting away with avoiding paying the import tax

 

[Matt]

given that matty is absolutely right about the indivual being liable for the import tax , i have to wonder whats going on here (as per David's description)

What exactly are D'rev adding to their prices for ?

Also although the individual is responsible for the tax, if the company misdescribes the parcel they are still 'conspiring to evade..' although theres not much HMRC can do to a HK based company anyway

if you press DR for an answer, they will tell you that they will pay any taxes that you have to pay.

There did used to be special conditions for countries in HK for sending items to the UK, that agreement may well be the reason that packages from there come in the way that they do. It might be worth researching what that agreement is/was as it may well render all these discussions as pointless.

 

[paulminus273]

I don’t know if it is relevant but it appears that panamoz export to mainland Europe then to the uk, as there is no tax liability from the EU this may be a legal loophole

 

[ukaskew]

so what is the answer? the question of tax evasion only arises when someone asks about importing from outside the EU, and its nearly always someone saying 'but its tax evasion'.

As stated more than once, it is up to the BUYER to declare the goods when they receive them. by stating that it up to them, we are clarifying the position. if we delete every mention of importing then lots of threads will disappear.

I don't have the answer, unfortunately. I just find it frustrating that the very people who are calmly and simply clarifying what is going on (when people ask what the pluses and minuses are) are the ones taking the flak around here. If people want to use these companies that's up to them, but trying to justify it is just plain bonkers, particularly when UK prices are dragged into the argument.

The amount of mis-information floating around is scary, we've had people likening it to buying alcohol in France. The water is well and truly muddied (particularly with DR, I've got no idea what they're doing) and ironically enough grey imports are painted in a bad light because of what is essentially a completely different issue (mis-labelling of goods).

 

[Spuff]

if you press DR for an answer, they will tell you that they will pay any taxes that you have to pay.

There did used to be special conditions for countries in HK for sending items to the UK, that agreement may well be the reason that packages from there come in the way that they do. It might be worth researching what that agreement is/was as it may well render all these discussions as pointless.

I posted about this earlier in this thread:

It is the importer (customer) that is responsible for the payment of VAT and Customs Duty (if applicable) but there are some regions, specifically Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand and the Channel Islands where a Memorandum of Understanding exists.

This means that some traders are able to charge, collect and pay VAT to HMRC for goods purchased by mail order. These traders are issued with a unique authorisation number which must be shown on packaging (or customs declaration) and should also show "Import VAT prepaid".

If any of the companies mentioned above are using this method then it should be easy to verify from the packaging received. If customs declarations are labelled as "gifts" or undervalued then it is fairly obvious what is happening.

A guarantee that VAT will be paid "if caught" (my words) in the absence of the MoU, does not constitute a tax payment regime.

 

[Matt]

thanks Spuff, thats the fella, memorandum of understanding, duty rate from HK for camera equipment is £0, so its only VAT that is chargeable, unless prepaid. which it apparently is...

its a minefield of a subject.

 

[ukaskew]

its a minefield of a subject.

It most certainly is, but I will say I've imported hundreds of things from all over the world through reputable companies over the years and it's always been very clear from the attached documentation where you - as the importer - stand, as you would expect given that it's your responsibility. Normally this means a bill (fully broken down based on the value of the goods and any service charge) but occasionally if duty has been pre-paid it's also very clear. This was most definitely not the case when I ordered from Panamoz.

 

[fracster]

You're right - but whomever it is, is still using an unfair advantage to then charge for their services (ie initially cheaper kit -even if it isn't offset).

Mind you, if someone is using undeclared HK imports, do you really think that they are registered with HMRC?

I guess not.

 

[Im Bald Ok]

Anyway...If i buy from DigitalRevs eBay site, many people have paid import tax on the items they buy. So my last question is, how much import tax do you have to pay on £1250 worth of gear? Or is it not as simple as that?

 

[Nod]

Not sure which of the Far Eastern lot is doing it but I see that one of the FE$ based companies is offering a tenner incentive to people who say nice things about them on forums. Anyone here benefitting?

 

[Dave *]

Anyway...If i buy from DigitalRevs eBay site, many people have paid import tax on the items they buy. So my last question is, how much import tax do you have to pay on £1250 worth of gear? Or is it not as simple as that?

Their offer to pay any incurred tax is only via their website.

If you buy via their eBay sales you are liable for all costs without any form of compensation from them.

 

[Im Bald Ok]

I know i'll be liable to pay fees, hence my question. Their eBay site price is close to £150 cheaper, so if import tax is less than that it's cheaper and legal.

 

[Spuff]

I know i'll be liable to pay fees, hence my question. Their eBay site price is close to £150 cheaper, so if import tax is less than that it's cheaper and legal.

Well VAT alone would be £250. The courier would probably have some form of admin fee. Customs duty - don't know whether it applies without looking it up.

 

[modchild]

Since reading one of these marathon threads regarding import duty last year, and this one today, I have checked the 2 items I have bought from Panamoz and both parcels were labelled as Camera Accessories. 1 was a lens and the other was a ringflash, so both were described correctly with a large value in Yen (I don't know what it converted to in sterling) and still both times no duty was requested. In these instances neither Panamoz or myself have tried to evade anything and in these cases I can only assume some sort of duty was paid or some agreement was used to make the import.

I don't know about anyone else buying from Panamoz getting mislabelled parcels, until I read the first thread last year I hadn't checked what the parcels were labelled as as I wasn't that interested. However, some prices from Panamoz are so good that even with paying VAT the purchase would still be less than buying from some of the UK vendors.

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid. By now everyone should know the rules for importing and why can't people just leave it to individuals to do what they should without taking the moral high ground.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Since reading one of these marathon threads regarding import duty last year, and this one today, I have checked the 2 items I have bought from Panamoz and both parcels were labelled as Camera Accessories. 1 was a lens and the other was a ringflash, so both were described correctly with a large value in Yen (I don't know what it converted to in sterling) and still both times no duty was requested. In these instances neither Panamoz or myself have tried to evade anything and in these cases I can only assume some sort of duty was paid or some agreement was used to make the import.

I don't know about anyone else buying from Panamoz getting mislabelled parcels, until I read the first thread last year I hadn't checked what the parcels were labelled as as I wasn't that interested. However, some prices from Panamoz are so good that even with paying VAT the purchase would still be less than buying from some of the UK vendors.

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid. By now everyone should know the rules for importing and why can't people just leave it to individuals to do what they should without taking the moral high ground.

By taking the high ground they can look down on others...

 

[DemiLion]

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid.

Exactly the route that I'm planning to take, as long as they provide me with a VAT receipt!

 

[admirable]

Has anyone bought Nikon gear and successfully claimed the 2 year warranty?

 

[graphilly]

Since reading one of these marathon threads regarding import duty last year, and this one today, I have checked the 2 items I have bought from Panamoz and both parcels were labelled as Camera Accessories. 1 was a lens and the other was a ringflash, so both were described correctly with a large value in Yen (I don't know what it converted to in sterling) and still both times no duty was requested. In these instances neither Panamoz or myself have tried to evade anything and in these cases I can only assume some sort of duty was paid or some agreement was used to make the import.

I don't know about anyone else buying from Panamoz getting mislabelled parcels, until I read the first thread last year I hadn't checked what the parcels were labelled as as I wasn't that interested. However, some prices from Panamoz are so good that even with paying VAT the purchase would still be less than buying from some of the UK vendors.

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid. By now everyone should know the rules for importing and why can't people just leave it to individuals to do what they should without taking the moral high ground.

I would hazard a guess that your lens parcel was possibly incorrectly labelled. I am of the understanding that lenses should be labelled as camera lenses.

For countries where import duty applies, there are different rates of duty applied for different items. The difference between 'camera lens' and 'camera accessory' will be quite different.

 

[Dave *]

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid.

I'm a little sceptical if that is completely true with regards to HDEW, if it was so, why do they have the following disclaimer in their terms?

You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.

Legally, they are acting as an agent and the buyer is the importer. Seems a strange thing to say :shrug:.

Or have I misinterpreted their meaning?

 

[admirable]

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid.

Are you saying you have a VAT receipt with their VAT number showing the VAT has been paid?

 

[Musicman]

On a somewhat related matter, UK government have closed the LCVR VAT loophole that allowed them to ship CDs and DVDs to the UK without charging VAT and it's no surprise that Play.com announced today they are closing their retail business

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-20953357

Online retailer Play.com is to shut down its retail business to become a marketplace-only, from March.

The Jersey-based firm blamed the move on the ending of Low Value Consignment Relief, which allowed items less than £15 to be sold to the UK VAT-free.

All 147 staff in Jersey are to be made redundant as well as 67 in its Cambridge and Bristol offices.

Play.com will now become more like a shopping centre, no longer selling directly to customers.

 

[Musicman]

thanks Spuff, thats the fella, memorandum of understanding, duty rate from HK for camera equipment is £0, so its only VAT that is chargeable, unless prepaid. which it apparently is..

Duty on digital cameras is 0%

However...

Duty on camera lenses is 6.7%

and

Duty on 35mm film cameras is 4.2%

http://www.dutycalculator.com/

N.B. VAT is also chargeable on the duty levied.

 

[HoppyUK]

<snip>

I have bought grey imports through Hdew Cameras too and I have received a receipt showing all the necessary taxes have been paid.

<snip>

Quite so. But if the goods are imported through a certain route then they can be legally sold without paying VAT, maybe duty too. It's a legal loophole. Saying that all taxes have been paid is the usual phrasing, but ask the specific question 'has VAT been paid?' and you may get a different answer - if they reply at all.

Exactly the route that I'm planning to take, as long as they provide me with a VAT receipt!

Please let us know. Seriously, please do - it's the key point!

 

[Musicman]

I don&rsquo;t know if it is relevant but it appears that panamoz export to mainland Europe then to the uk, as there is no tax liability from the EU this may be a legal loophole

If they're landing the goods in Europe and reselling them from there, then, as the importer, *they* should be paying applicable duty and VAT in that country which is the point of entry into the EU for the goods.

They should then charge applicable VAT to the consumer in the UK (usually the VAT rate prevailing in the EU state in which they're operating). They can then offset one against the other in their VAT return.

Otherwise, if for example, the goods just get routed via Frankfurt by the shipping company, the UK consumer is still the legal importer and nothing changes from the discussions about shipping directly from Hong Kong.

 

[MartynK]

HK has different trade agreements with the UK as it used to be part of the UK.

When was Hong Kong part of the UK?

 

[Musicman]

When was Hong Kong part of the UK?

It wasn't.

Prior to 1997 it was a British Dependent Territory (for which it was self-governing except in foreign policy for which the UK was responsible) and before 1981 it was a Crown Colony.

 

[MartynK]

It wasn't.

Prior to 1997 it was a British Dependent Territory (for which it was self-governing except in foreign policy for which the UK was responsible) and before 1981 it was a Crown Colony.

Yip, I know. I served with the RHKP in the 70s, but I wondered if someone knew something I didn't!

 

[HoppyUK]

Quite so. But if the goods are imported through a certain route then they can be legally sold without paying VAT, maybe duty too. It's a legal loophole. Saying that all taxes have been paid is the usual phrasing, but ask the specific question 'has VAT been paid?' and you may get a different answer - if they reply at all.

Please let us know. Seriously, please do - it's the key point!

Further to this, there's a post on this thread http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=275803&page=23 showing a recent invoice from HDEW for a Canon 5D3, VAT paid at 20%.

Edit: TBH, I'm not sure why there's such a fuss from distributors about warranty work, regardless of where and how a product has been purchased. The problem is all theirs, and the parent company, and the solution is in their hands.

The distributor's argument is that since they've not supplied the product, and therefore received no profit from the sale, any warranty work is not their problem. However, the parent company has received their cut, so why not simply carry out the repair FOC and send a recharge note back to Japan to cover the work?

They may then kick up a fuss and say that UK retailers can't compete with grey traders, but that's the parent company's fault. They know exactly who they sell which products to, at what cost, where they end up being sold and at what prices - they can control that at source. If they really wanted to that is... I'm not sure they do.

 

[DemiLion]

Further to this, there's a post on this thread http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=275803&page=23 showing a recent invoice from HDEW for a Canon 5D3, VAT paid at 20%.

Yup. I'd seen Tim posting about this a while ago which is why I'm prepared to consider them!

I'll post if it turns out that they cant provide one, rather than the other way around!

 

[Im Bald Ok]

Interestingly they also give a 3 year warranty compared to digitalrev and panamoz' 1 year.