Grey imports

[Dave *]

My understanding is that if the said Camera or gear was less than two years old (proof of purchase is required) one would have to pay import duty.

That is the rule which applied when I was serving in the Army many moons ago.

I got stung back in 65 when I arrived back in UK from Singapore with a Yasheka which was less than a year old. i could not afford to pay the duty so the Camera was impounded.

6 months, it would appear (it would seem the Army is now exempt from the restriction as well)..

If you’re moving or returning to the UK (including British subjects) from outside the EU, you can import your belongings free of duty and tax provided you’ve lived at least 12 months outside the EU.

Your possessions must have been used for at least six months outside the EU before being imported.

Tax and duty must have been paid on all items being imported (this isn’t applicable to diplomats, members of officially recognised international organisations, members of NATO or British forces and their spouses, and any civilian staff accompanying them).

Articles must be for your personal use, must be declared to customs, and you mustn’t sell, lend, hire out, or otherwise dispose of them in the UK (or elsewhere in the EU) within 12 months, without customs authorisation.

 

[Thats my sock]

By evading tax.

If that means 1 night out less for an umemployed jezza kyle scummer then i'll import every time.

 

[tbm]

I'm potentially in the market for an upgrade from my 7D to a 6D.

I understand that buying a UK model means you can get your camera repaired here in the UK under warrantee/take it back to the shop etc (unless you buy from Jessops/Jacobs or any other UK company that goes bust). However, if for example you buy from DigitalRev, they give you a years warrantee where all you do is send it off to their UK address for repair.

Buying a grey import from Panamoz, for example, is still made by Canon, it still does the same thing, you still get a warrantee for a year and is far cheaper than here in the UK. My understanding is that after the warrantee is up, whether it's a UK model or grey you're still in the same boat?

I see in the classifieds section people are much more inclined to pay more for out of warrantee UK models than greys. Why? Surely they do the same thing. If they break you are no better off with a broken UK model? You've just payed more for the same item?

I imagine this has been covered many times but I couldn't find any answers in the search bar.

Why should I buy a UK 6D over an import? I don't see any reason not to buy an import. Am I missing something?

You could also buy from the UK and get a good deal from Hdew Cameras compared to most other high street shop, if there is any left. They have it at £1419 including a 3 year warranty http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/new-canon-6d-body-only-1167-p.asp and the camera is covered by Canon UK. I've bought around £5K worth of kit from them and had great service from them every time.

I recently bought my 5DII from HDEW on modchild's advice (ta ) - must say so far it's been a superb experience. Good customer service, UK spec charger and European instructions.. the only thing "amiss" is that the box is for a kit with lens not body only (they've obviously been split from a kit since they work out cheaper this way). Personally I'm happy to accept this for a saving of over £100.

I registed the body online earlier in the week with Canon and it was accepted with no issues; so I assume that (as I was told by HDEW) there will be no problems should I need to make a warranty claim with Canon UK. The icing on the cake is that the camera was also sent with an additional 2yrs 3rd party warranty too

Apparently tax on all HDEW supplied items has been paid, and I'd recommend them highly from my experience so far.

Did there used to be a number to report suspected tax dodgers? Or was that just for benefit fraud?

It's all very well everyone getting their moral high horses.. but (not that I'm neccessarily condoning tax evasion) the only difference between tax evasion on an individual and corporate basis appears to be that the buisinesses have the resources to find the legal loopholes to avoid tax (with a quiet nod from the administration behind closed doors) while individuals do not.

And besides, what does it all get spent on anyway? Bailing out bankers perhaps so they can continue to gamble liability-free with other people's money?

I think a lot of us would be more comfortable paying our taxes if we knew that it wasn't being squandered on expenditure that really doesn't benefit society as a whole.

 

[Gaz J]

It's not about "moral high horses" and trying to justify it by saying that taxes are wasted by the government bailing out bankers isn't a justified argument either.

It the HRMC suddenly decided to take a close interest in these companies and turned up at people's door demanding payment of import duties and taxes then it would quickly change the viewpoint of people. They won't because they don't have the resources and this is what these companies rely on. Good luck to anyone who buys grey imports. Perhaps it will ultimately drive down genuine prices as happened with motorcycles.

 

[big soft moose]

If that means 1 night out less for an umemployed jezza kyle scummer then i'll import every time.

but it doesnt - it simply means that eventually tax will have to be increased and everybody who does pay it will suffer

come to that schools, doctors, fire , police, roads etc etc etc is al paid for out of taxation, its not all about benefits cheats

and by the way if you recieve a box from panamoz marked 'toy parts' but which actually contains a camera, and you don't report the mis description and pay the correct import dutie, then you are conspiring to evade tax which is a serious criminal offence.

Leaving aside the point that its your duty to pay tax , there is also the point that sooner or later HMRC wil catch and prosecute someone for this, and every time you do it you run the risk of it being you.

 

[Ash.]

I could almost gaurentee that those who aren't buying a grey import don't do so because they want to line the tax offices bank account, rather they just want manufacturers warrenty, or don't want to buy from HK - which is fair enough.

I'm not saying evading tax is right, but if you could avoid paying tax, and still get full warrenty, I'm pretty sure nearly everyone would do it...

 

[big soft moose]

If that means 1 night out less for an umemployed jezza kyle scummer then i'll import every time.

but it doesnt - it simply means that eventually tax will have to be increased and everybody who does pay it will suffer

come to that schools, doctors, fire , police, roads etc etc etc is al paid for out of taxation, its not all about benefits cheats

and by the way if you recieve a box from panamoz marked 'toy parts' but which actually contains a camera, and you don't report the mis description and pay the correct import duty, then you are conspiring to evade tax which is a serious criminal offence.

Leaving aside the point that its your duty to pay tax , there is also the point that sooner or later HMRC wil catch and prosecute someone for this, and every time you do it you run the risk of it being you.

I don't have a problem with buying grey so long as correct import tax etc is paid (as with hdew, and i believe kerso and possibly Drev) but misdescribing items to get them in cheap is not on

 

[avarice08]

If that means 1 night out less for an umemployed jezza kyle scummer then i'll import every time.

After a 15 hour day yesterday...which seems to be becoming the norm of late!

 

[graphilly]

I recently bought my 5DII from HDEW on modchild's advice (ta ) - must say so far it's been a superb experience. Good customer service, UK spec charger and European instructions.. the only thing "amiss" is that the box is for a kit with lens not body only (they've obviously been split from a kit since they work out cheaper this way). Personally I'm happy to accept this for a saving of over £100.

I registed the body online earlier in the week with Canon and it was accepted with no issues; so I assume that (as I was told by HDEW) there will be no problems should I need to make a warranty claim with Canon UK. The icing on the cake is that the camera was also sent with an additional 2yrs 3rd party warranty too

Apparently tax on all HDEW supplied items has been paid, and I'd recommend them highly from my experience so far.




It's all very well everyone getting their moral high horses.. but (not that I'm neccessarily condoning tax evasion) the only difference between tax evasion on an individual and corporate basis appears to be that the buisinesses have the resources to find the legal loopholes to avoid tax (with a quiet nod from the administration behind closed doors) while individuals do not.

And besides, what does it all get spent on anyway? Bailing out bankers perhaps so they can continue to gamble liability-free with other people's money?

I think a lot of us would be more comfortable paying our taxes if we knew that it wasn't being squandered on expenditure that really doesn't benefit society as a whole.

Are you talking about registering with CPS or just registering it on the normal warranty system?

The online system doesn't do any form of checking to verify where the camera was bought or even if it was a genuine serial number.

It might only be when you come to get Canon to repair it that they refuse to do so.

 

[Dave *]

Are you talking about registering with CPS or just registering it on the normal warranty system?

The online system doesn't do any form of checking to verify where the camera was bought or even if it was a genuine serial number.

It might only be when you come to get Canon to repair it that they refuse to do so.

I'm pretty sure HDEW is grey stock sourced outside the UK or EU after reading their website.

One giveaway

UK Cashback schemes

PLEASE NOTE THAT OUR NIKON AND CANON PRODUCTS DO NOT QUALIFY FOR NIKON UK OR CANON UK CASHBACK OFFERS OR OTHER PROMOTIONS WHICH NIKON OR CANON LIMIT TO SELECTED UK RETAILERS.

Canon, for example, don't restrict retailers, just that the kit is sourced from one of the EU Canon distributors and sold by a retailer in the UK or ROI.

1.4 All products must be purchased within the UK or ROI from a UK or ROI retailer and must have been supplied and distributed to retailers by Canon UK Ltd or Canon group companies located in the European Economic
Area.

 

[graphilly]

I'm pretty sure HDEW is grey stock sourced outside the UK or EU after reading their website.

One giveaway



Canon, for example, don't restrict retailers, just that the kit is sourced from one of the EU Canon distributors and sold by a retailer in the UK or ROI.

Yes I am pretty sure they do. I was only highlighting the point that registration online doesn't necessarily mean that Canon UK will accept it for warranty repair or even a paid repair.

 

[Dave *]

Yes I am pretty sure they do. I was only highlighting the point that registration online doesn't necessarily mean that Canon UK will accept it for warranty repair or even a paid repair.

Sorry if I gave you the idea I was disputing your point. I agree with your post completely.

 

[Wilkol]

There is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is legal, the other one isn't.

I find it almost comical that there was such a moral outrage about the Starbucks, amazon etc tax issue, yet many will happily buy dodgy grey imports when it saves them a few quid.

 

[big soft moose]

There is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is legal, the other one isn't.
.

indeed and importing electronic equipment in boxes with the contents misdescribed is evasion , and definitely illegal

 

[Ash.]

There is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is legal, the other one isn't.

I find it almost comical that there was such a moral outrage about the Starbucks, amazon etc tax issue, yet many will happily buy dodgy grey imports when it saves them a few quid.

But there's nothing to say that those buying grey imports are the same people complaining about starbucks etc (unless people want to do some serious digging through other threads) and thus, there's no hypocricy, or anything comical.

indeed and importing electronic equipment in boxes with the contents misdescribed is evasion , and definitely illegal

Whilst true, I don't see why (not just you) but people are so bothered what other people get up to?

I'm not saying it's right, but it doesn't affect you. Some of these threads put me off forums, where photography seems to become more about people bickering and spouting drivvel instead of enjoying their hobby.

As someone who's been studying Business economics for several years now, I'd like to point out that there are far far worse issues economically than grey imports. even a few £million a year evaded isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of the economy. Having said that, I must state again that it doesn't make it right.

 

[Gaz J]

The OP asked for people's opinions. That's what he has got. Some are happy to do it. Some arent.

I'm sure ,as has been stated previously, that many more people's objections would become more muted if the warranty was world wide no questions asked.

A few million quid evaded isn't a big deal??? Seemed a big deal when Starbucks came under fire. And they were doing it legally.

 

[Im Bald Ok]

The OP asked for people's opinions. That's what he has got. Some are happy to do it. Some arent.

...and i'm happily reading all the opinions

 

[big soft moose]

Whilst true, I don't see why (not just you) but people are so bothered what other people get up to?

Becauses its wrong

If you or anyone else feels the need to do something that is ethically wrong and illegal , then if you really must, just do it, don't post about your intention to do it on a forum and expect everyone to approve.

At the end of the day the point of internet fora is discussion , so if someone posts essentially "I intend to evade tax today" they can hardly be suprised when this is discussed and in part condemned.

 

[cowboy]

Nobody has said they are buying photographic equipment labelled as toys to evade tax.

I bought a lens from a HK retailer with a uk address, the lens came to me from the uk address therefore they would be liable for any import tax as my lens was sent from one uk address to another.

 

[big soft moose]

Nobody has said they are buying photographic equipment labelled as toys to evade tax.
.

anyone who shops at panamoz allegedly is doing though (other - though not all- grey retailers also follow this practice) - also some claim to have a uk address , but actually only have a post resante facilities with their warehousing being overseas (meaning the buyer is still liable for the import tax).

at the end of the day imo there in nothing wrong with importing equipment from overseas if you can get it at a cheaper than uk price once import tax is paid (as is often the case with goods from america thanks to the straight $ to £ conversion of prices), but buying goods and conspiring to evade import tax is wrong and illegal, while buying goods where the importer has evaded isnt necessarily illegal (unless you know it to be the case) but still isnt right.

 

[tbm]

Are you talking about registering with CPS or just registering it on the normal warranty system?

The online system doesn't do any form of checking to verify where the camera was bought or even if it was a genuine serial number.

It might only be when you come to get Canon to repair it that they refuse to do so.

Registering with the normal warranty system, here.

I wasn't aware that no checking was done on the serial; although I'd have thought some system would be in place to do this. I was assured by HDEW that the camera would qualify for a proper UK warranty and I've read elsewhere that Canon will honour the warranty if you can provide them with a purchase receipt from a UK business (which I have).

As you say though, the proof will be found if I need to use the warranty. Hopefully based on the performance of my other Canon bodies, I won't need to

 

[Matt]

i do wonder how many of the people getting their knickers in a knot about people buy from HK or other countries are whiter than white. never downloaded a track illegally? running a dodgy version of some software, or bobbed along at 50 instead of 40?

simple solution to all this, declare the tax on import, or buy from jacobs jessops erm... Warehouse Express

 

[big soft moose]

never downloaded a track illegally? - no
running a dodgy version of some software, - nope
or bobbed along at 50 instead of 40? - erm yes , but not routinely, nor would i suggest to anyone else that its a good idea.

that aside its a little odd that an administrator dismisses concerns about tax evasion as ' people getting their knickers in a knot' when the forum rules say

Prohibited content - Discussion of, encouraging of, or admitting to illegal activities,

so discussing file streaming or hackintosh is a big no no , but its fine to admit to and encourage people to evade uk import tax isnt that a little erm ... inconsistent ?

 

[viv1969]

never downloaded a track illegally? - no
running a dodgy version of some software, - nope
or bobbed along at 50 instead of 40? - erm yes , but not routinely, nor would i suggest to anyone else that its a good idea.

that aside its a little odd that an administrator dismisses concerns about tax evasion as ' people getting their knickers in a knot' when the forum rules say



so discussing file streaming or hackintosh is a big no no , but its fine to admit to and encourage people to evade uk import tax isnt that a little erm ... inconsistent ?

Good luck Pete.

 

[Matt]

never downloaded a track illegally? - no
running a dodgy version of some software, - nope
or bobbed along at 50 instead of 40? - erm yes , but not routinely, nor would i suggest to anyone else that its a good idea.

that aside its a little odd that an administrator dismisses concerns about tax evasion as ' people getting their knickers in a knot' when the forum rules say



so discussing file streaming or hackintosh is a big no no , but its fine to admit to and encourage people to evade uk import tax isnt that a little erm ... inconsistent ?

I havent encouraged people to evade tax nor have I said I agree with it. wipe the froth off your face and read it again.

 

[Matt]

and FYI, buying from abroad is NOT tax evasion, its what happens when the package arrives that is the discussion point.

 

[dmo]

If the service exists it should be used. Abroad-buyers are taking a bigger risk anyway, using a service with a shady rep, no warranty, and unverifiable until the transaction's completed. Risk + reward.. if the risk was low I'm sure we'd all be using it, and the price would be higher. Simple supply/demand logic..

 

[big soft moose]

@Matty no , you havent - i never said that you personally had

what i'm saying is that the rules say its against the rules to discuss, admit to, or encourage any form of illegal activity.

tax evasion is clearly an illegal activity ,so what i'm questioning is why with your admin hat on you (or any other mod/admin) feel its okay for people to discuss buying from panamoz etc (or any importer who mislabels products in order to avoid correct taxation) ? (and thats a genuine question - i'm looking for clarification , not an argument)

and while you havent explicitly said you agree with it, TP admin havent taken action to prevent such discussion , wheras if someone were to start a thread on ways to commit insurance fraud, evade software copyright, or make a hackintosh installation it would probably last five seconds

edit: and per your second point , i agree that buying from abroad isnt tax evasion - if you read my earlier posts you'll see i havent got a problem with it if import duty is correctly paid - what i'm talking about is recieving a package mislabelled 'toy parts' which actually contains camera equipment and not reporting it - that is "conspiring to evade import duty" and could get someone into a lot of trouble if they got caught

 

[DemiLion]

and FYI, buying from abroad is NOT tax evasion, its what happens when the package arrives that is the discussion point.

Yup, you're absolutely right. It's the non-declaration that's the naughty bit.

 

[ZoneV]

I havent encouraged people to evade tax nor have I said I agree with it. wipe the froth off your face and read it again.

That's a bit punchy isn't it?

He didn't say YOU encouraged people to evade tax. Perhaps you should wipe the froth from your eyes and read his post again?

 

[Matt]

@Matty no , you havent - i never said that you personally had

what i'm saying is that the rules say its against the rules to discuss, admit to, or encourage any form of illegal activity.

tax evasion is clearly an illegal activity ,so what i'm questioning is why with your admin hat on you (or any other mod/admin) feel its okay for people to discuss buying from panamoz etc (or any importer who mislabels products in order to avoid correct taxation) ? (and thats a genuine question - i'm looking for clarification , not an argument)

and while you havent explicitly said you agree with it, TP admin havent taken action to prevent such discussion , wheras if someone were to start a thread on ways to commit insurance fraud, evade software copyright, or make a hackintosh installation it would probably last five seconds

edit: and per your second point , i agree that buying from abroad isnt tax evasion - if you read my earlier posts you'll see i havent got a problem with it if import duty is correctly paid - what i'm talking about is recieving a package mislabelled 'toy parts' which actually contains camera equipment and not reporting it - that is "conspiring to evade import duty" and could get someone into a lot of trouble if they got caught

No, we dont condone tax evasion. We dont stop people talking about importing goods as that isnt illegal, As ive said in many other threads, it is YOU the buyer that is responsible for the import tax, so if a thread is left running, someone will post to remind people that they are liable.

now when you start to type the next post demanding that we remove all advertising from any of the companies that do it, take a moment to write to ebay, various photographic magazines, several other internet forums, google and anywhere else that those companies advertise. :| we actually ended one agreement because of possible problems with the way they were doing business, so how about you email us if you feel that your morals are being eroded further, as arguing with moderating decisions in public is against the rules.

 

[Matt]

That's a bit punchy isn't it?

He didn't say YOU encouraged people to evade tax. Perhaps you should wipe the froth from your eyes and read his post again?

that aside its a little odd that an administrator dismisses concerns about tax evasion

well as im one of the administrators of the forum, i'd say the implication is quite clear. ive said my piece, if people have an issue, they need to take it up with the companies that post the packages, not us.

 

[big soft moose]

jeez chill winston

I never mentioned advertisers, no where on this thread (or indeed any thread) have i demanded or even suggested, that you remove adverts from grey importers, who you allow to advertise is entirely your call - also i agree that its the person importing who's liable for import tax. Nor have I at any point in this thread argued with a moderating decision.

All I was questioning was your description of those (not just me) who have a legitimate concern about tax evasion in what seemed to be dismissive terms - you've clarified that you are happy for people to highlight that import duty is due on such threads so i'm guessing that this was one of those 'internet missing body language occasions' and as this appears to be a touchy subject i'm happy to leave that there

 

[Gaz J]

i do wonder how many of the people getting their knickers in a knot about people buy from HK or other countries are whiter than white. never downloaded a track illegally? running a dodgy version of some software, or bobbed along at 50 instead of 40?

If you make this statement then you make it outside your position of Administrator. If you want to broad brush people because you don't like or agree with what they have to say that's fine. To then start wielding a big stick and quoting the rules when someone takes issue with what you post is unfair.

 

[big soft moose]

If you make this statement then you make it outside your position of Administrator. If you want to broad brush people because you don't like or agree with what they have to say that's fine. To then start wielding a big stick and quoting the rules when someone takes issue with what you post is unfair.

Thanks for the support Gaz but to be fair to matty , i mentioned his position in my reply to that , which was a daft thing to do on my part, because as you say it was probably a personal, rather than official post , plus i quoted from the rules so its fair enough for him to respond in kind.

lack of body language on fora plays a big part in minor misunderstanding blowing up into full blown arguments - but i'm a big boy and happy not to hold it against him so its probably best if we regard this a dead issue (I'd guess that various previous threads about vat and grey import etc have made this whole feild a touchy subject in the staff room)

(I'm sure Matty realises really that the admin and mod team here have my full support, and nothing ive posted above was supposed to be an actual criticism of him or them, and if it came over that way i apologise - they do a difficult and thankless job extremly well and we are lucky to have them)

 

[Gaz J]

Discussion is good and so is reasoned argument. I think that posters to this thread have done it in a reasonable and mature way. This is a contentious issue for some people. I must admit that I have a deep mistrust of companies of this type and would rather pay more to get uk stock. But that's me. I have no doubt that the moderators on the forum have an unenviable job in deciding whether to step in or not on this subject and others.

 

[Matt]

If you make this statement then you make it outside your position of Administrator. If you want to broad brush people because you don't like or agree with what they have to say that's fine. To then start wielding a big stick and quoting the rules when someone takes issue with what you post is unfair.

fair point...but as pete says....

Thanks for the support Gaz but to be fair to matty , i mentioned his position in my reply to that , which was a daft thing to do on my part, because as you say it was probably a personal, rather than official post , plus i quoted from the rules so its fair enough for him to respond in kind.

lack of body language on fora plays a big part in minor misunderstanding blowing up into full blown arguments - but i'm a big boy and happy not to hold it against him so its probably best if we regard this a dead issue (I'd guess that various previous threads about vat and grey import etc have made this whole feild a touchy subject in the staff room)

(I'm sure Matty realises really that the admin and mod team here have my full support, and nothing ive posted above was supposed to be an actual criticism of him or them, and if it came over that way i apologise - they do a difficult and thankless job extremly well and we are lucky to have them)

this is a very annoying subject as it feels like people having a go at us for having advertisers from HK. My apologies for being a touch too spikey.

Discussion is good and so is reasoned argument. I think that posters to this thread have done it in a reasonable and mature way. This is a contentious issue for some people. I must admit that I have a deep mistrust of companies of this type and would rather pay more to get uk stock. But that's me. I have no doubt that the moderators on the forum have an unenviable job in deciding whether to step in or not on this subject and others.

normally its pretty easy to know what needs moderating and what doesnt, this is a hard subject as its down to the buyer to ensure its all above board. if we removed all discussion on importing then it would be a more difficult area to police than the classifieds section.

 

[ZoneV]

well as im one of the administrators of the forum, i'd say the implication is quite clear. ive said my piece, if people have an issue, they need to take it up with the companies that post the packages, not us.

With respect, Matty, you're reading more into this than is implied. The only implication is that buyers openly talk on the forum about not having to pay tax/duty items on items bought offshore, and sometimes even mention receiving mislabelled packages from offshore companies. I'm sure no-one is implying anything against you or the site (well I certainly am not), only that this behaviour does not fit with the forum's rule regarding discussing illegal activities.

(Edit: Started before the previous post appeared.)

 

[big soft moose]

Just to be clear , i have no issue with importing per se - ive bought a fair bit of grey over the years , and not just camera equipment either.( power tools are another clasic example). The state of pricing in the UK ofen means grey can be cheaper even including import tax.

My issue is only with firms/people who conspire to evade customs duty by miscdescribing packages and/or just not declaring it correctly.

 

[DemiLion]

this is a very annoying subject as it feels like people having a go at us for having advertisers from HK. My apologies for being a touch too spikey.

Tbh you made your position clear on this when you ended the advertising deal with another HK supplier.

I can understand that you're between a rock & a hard place at times, but I reckon that your stance of 'caveat emptor' is a decent one.

The only two issues that I have are

a) people that promote the HK suppliers on here claiming that the tax is paid- generally it isn't

and

b) people that buy HK imports and then use them for business (without declaring them)


neither of which the TP admin can influence!