Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I‘m not convinced one way or the other. I’m just open to the fact that we dont know the company or vat chains involved. I don’t automatically assume the grey sellers are fraudulent crooks and their customers are crooked smugglers.

I’ve also bought from suppliers mentioned and have never had a customs value form attached never mind undervalued. Thats on probably a dozen items or so over about 10 years. You have your experience, i have mine and they differ in that respect.

With regards a VAT receipt, HDEW provide them i understand if you want/ need one and they stock your requirements. But you are only entitled to a VAT receipt if a company is VAT registered. If they aren’t registered for VAT then you’re not entitled to a VAT receipt. If the supplier chain has a non vat registered company as the party transacting with you then they cant issue a VAT receipt but they may have paid VAT upstream at the transaction with the importer company part of the chain. That VAT is inherent in the cost to you but you cant claim it back as you are transacting with a non VAT registered company. I’m not saying this is how it works but i recognise it could be. Telling me that not being able to get a VAT receipt from a non VAT registered company is proof of fraud is quite the reverse. Getting a VAT receipt from a non VAT registered company would be clear evidence of fraud On the sellers part

if you read panamoz faq’s copied from their website this morning

10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties?

You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed.

under shipping on their faq’s

In addition, all import charges will be covered by us fully, and will be either billed to our shipping account or refunded to you immediately if billed to you. Please contact us by email if you are billed and we will send you a refund in full within 24 hours.

under their t&c’s

Import and Customs Charges

The prices on Panamoz.com are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed. These charges include import taxes and duties, and all associated charges, such as administration fees.


i can see how this could be construed as contradictory if you wish to construe it that way but could also be that a process foul up occassionally means theres an issue with the courier billing customer rather than their shipping account and they’re reassuring you that this is how they deal with it. Global trading isnt always plain sailing.

HDEW provide a VAT receipt that's not valid as it has the wrong VAT number on it.

The vat number on their receipt is for another related company. But not the company you've actually bought it from. Which doesn't match what HMRC require.

 

[sphexx]

Just a thought. It’s been said that HMRC find it fairly impossible to trace and stop these kinds of small transactions. However, they could pick on a few individuals and charge them the maximum possible, plus maybe a prosecution or two if appropriate. Its the sort of thing that’s usually done in tax cases. I wonder if folk here are wise in advertising their activities?

 

[jerry12953]

Even if they could undercut WEX etc by 10% somebody would be doing it right now.

If they were allowed to (see my earlier post about price-fixing)

 

[Norton]

Too risk adverse, so buy UK only

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

If they were allowed to (see my earlier post about price-fixing)

See my maths above, there's no price differential once VAT is added on to panamoz prices. Could be coincidence.

But combined with no VAT receipt and an undervalued package. Probably not.

 

[sphexx]

I‘m not convinced one way or the other. I’m just open to the fact that we dont know the company or vat chains involved. I don’t automatically assume the grey sellers are fraudulent crooks and their customers are crooked smugglers.

I’ve also bought from suppliers mentioned and have never had a customs value form attached never mind undervalued. Thats on probably a dozen items or so over about 10 years. You have your experience, i have mine and they differ in that respect.

With regards a VAT receipt, HDEW provide them i understand if you want/ need one and they stock your requirements. But you are only entitled to a VAT receipt if a company is VAT registered. If they aren’t registered for VAT then you’re not entitled to a VAT receipt. If the supplier chain has a non vat registered company as the party transacting with you then they cant issue a VAT receipt but they may have paid VAT upstream at the transaction with the importer company part of the chain. That VAT is inherent in the cost to you but you cant claim it back as you are transacting with a non VAT registered company. I’m not saying this is how it works but i recognise it could be. Telling me that not being able to get a VAT receipt from a non VAT registered company is proof of fraud is quite the reverse. Getting a VAT receipt from a non VAT registered company would be clear evidence of fraud On the sellers part

if you read panamoz faq’s copied from their website this morning

10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties?

You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed.

under shipping on their faq’s

In addition, all import charges will be covered by us fully, and will be either billed to our shipping account or refunded to you immediately if billed to you. Please contact us by email if you are billed and we will send you a refund in full within 24 hours.

under their t&c’s

Import and Customs Charges

The prices on Panamoz.com are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed. These charges include import taxes and duties, and all associated charges, such as administration fees.


i can see how this could be construed as contradictory if you wish to construe it that way but could also be that a process foul up occassionally means theres an issue with the courier billing customer rather than their shipping account and they’re reassuring you that this is how they deal with it. Global trading isnt always plain sailing.

It’s a question of understanding the English language! Phrases like All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly using the weasel word covered and not paid clearly indicate that they have not been paid, and we know they cough up when caught.

It’s the usual sort of weasel wording that you see everywhere in adverts or on packaging, foodstuffs, herbal remedies and so on.

They are not crooks as they are outside U.K. jurisdiction and it’s evident to anyone that many/most Chinese firms have great customer service — you can see even in low value items where they just replace stuff as soon as there is a complaint. They seem to be much keener to look after their customers than must U.K. firms,

 

[sphexx]

I remember years ago the French got upset with Japanese video recorders and decided to unpack and inspect every one before allowing them through. So it can be done at least to some degree although how you'd stop companies labelling them as something else matching the size and shape of a video recorder box I don't know.

The French are masters at this. IIRC they were responsible for the limited run time for video on cameras as part of a scheme to protect their video recorder industry.

 

[jerry12953]

I'm amazed that so many "photographers" get so worked up about the ethics of buying their kit through the normal channels or saving some dosh and buying grey.

Why not discuss something worthwhile like er......photography...... or the climate and ecological emergency?

 

[sphexx]

I'm amazed that so many "photographers" get so worked up about the ethics of buying their kit through the normal channels or saving some dosh and buying grey.

Why not discuss something worthwhile like er......photography...... or the climate and ecological emergency?

But who do you think is getting ”worked up”? Would it be OK if I said you are worked up by “so many “photographers” …” ?

 

[Jim_Tod]

I'm talking about Dave from Hackney getting containers of gear shipped over and selling it on legitimately (i.e. VAT included). If that was truly viable the market would be flooded and then you might gradually see bigger players enter the market who can secure even bigger bulk discounts. As far as I can tell, not a single person in the UK is actually doing this on eBay or elsewhere. Even if they could undercut WEX etc by 10% somebody would be doing it right now.

Or a small indie shop struggling but with an established website, ecommerce system etc, deciding to go 'grey' as a last ditch attempt to stay afloat. That's not happened either.

There were stories of people finding all sorts of business opportunities at the end of lockdown 1, sourcing products from Asia and selling them on, creating businesses from essentially nothing.

I find it hard to believe that people genuinely accept that these few companies are massively undercutting UK prices completely legitimately. Logic, a bit of maths, some common sense and not a shred of evidence to the contrary suggest otherwise.

And Dave has a load of global contacts and supply chain dealing with him to do this along with the capital to invest in it. If he did, do you think he’d set up in the UK and limit his sales market to here. Why wouldn’t he set up in Hong Kong and perhaps trade through his company, call it Panamoz or Hdew or e-infinity and sell internationally rather than nationally. Oops someone’s already doing that.

And as i’ve said a number of times on this thread, you think VAT is being avoided but dont know that. You speculate but offer no proof and do not appear to open your eyes to global pricing structures.

A small uk based indie shop doing similar to panamoz et al. Could we set that up together and trade as Cotswold Cameras. Oops no, someone’s already trading in that way in uk under that name

here’s what they say about cost base and how they undercut official channels. I hadn’t read that when i first posted in this thread but it’s confirmed my view of the regional pricing strategy of global manufacturers.

3. Are these 'imports'?
In short, yes they are. Manufacturers want to fix their prices within an area so as to maximise their profits and they know that as European customers we will pay more for goods. We pay more than Asia and the US for identical items. All cameras are imported into the UK, whether it is by us or Canon and Nikon UK. They are all made at the same factories and work in exactly the same way. The only difference is that we provide the warranty on our models. Sometimes our cameras may be provided with an adaptor for the battery charger and a photocopied manual but apart from these differences they are the same. It is up to you to decide if you would prefer the significant savings or not.



I take the view that there’s plenty of grey market evidence across the world to back up my beliefs that importing grey doesn’t mean fraudulent but can result in significant undercutting of official channels- if it didn’t it wouldn’t happen. I refer to my earlier posts of a uk case concerning Tesco and Levi Strauss to show how massive undercutting of official UK pricing can take place. Did you read that?

I take the view that UK pricing is high because the manufacturers think we’ll bear that cost in a way asia and usa wont.

I believe that common sense isnt very common and is simply biased from an individuals world view and beliefs. Telling me that logic, common sense and no evidence prove me wrong doesn’t actually prove me wrong. I’ve explained scenarios backed up with evidence of similar parallel situations but……

 

[SFTPhotography]

Is it your money? It will be money that has been earned working in a high wage economy, or by owning a house with an artificially high price, or has been left, and if you have so much that you can buy lots of cameras, or go on foreign holidays, when 95% of the world’s population cannot, why have you got so much money?

Why are you so interested in what someone else has. It doesn't make your lot in life amd better or any worse.

 

[Pound Coin]

I'm amazed that so many "photographers" get so worked up about the ethics of buying their kit through the normal channels or saving some dosh and buying grey.

Why not discuss something worthwhile like er......photography...... or the climate and ecological emergency?

Because if VAT is collected properly, there is more money available to combat the Climate Emergency.

 

[Pound Coin]

Why are you so interested in what someone else has. It doesn't make your lot in life amd better or any worse.

You started it by indicating that you considered money to be yours. Money is an artificial construct. You want more than others, you have made that clear, but you haven't explained any you want more.

 

[sphexx]

And Dave has a load of global contacts and supply chain dealing with him to do this along with the capital to invest in it. If he did, do you think he’d set up in the UK and limit his sales market to here. Why wouldn’t he set up in Hong Kong and perhaps trade through his company, call it Panamoz or Hdew or e-infinity and sell internationally rather than nationally. Oops someone’s already doing that.

You are completely missing the point .

 

[SFTPhotography]

Because if VAT is collected properly, there is more money available to combat the Climate Emergency.

What emergency.

More people die due to cold weather events than warm weather ones. Cases of flu and other respitory illnesses soar in cold weather.

There's a very valid argument for saying global temperatures need to rise and rise much faster than they're supposedly rising.

Yes, some wild life will suffer but other species, especially aquatic life will thrive. Arguably some coastal areas may be lost but there's vast areas of this earth uninhabitable due to cold climates- suddenly they will become a lot more habitatable.

 

[SFTPhotography]

You started it by indicating that you considered money to be yours. Money is an artificial construct. You want more than others, you have made that clear, but you haven't explained any you want more.

My money is mine and it is good and right to try and retain as much of it as humanly possible.

How would you maintain, preserve or grow wealth otherwise?

 

[Jim_Tod]

HDEW provide a VAT receipt that's not valid as it has the wrong VAT number on it.

The vat number on their receipt is for another related company. But not the company you've actually bought it from. Which doesn't match what HMRC require.

Which is what i said in an earlier thread that i‘ve always assumed hdew keep a vat registered subsidiary. I dont know their internal workings as to where and when transactions are routed to define anend of chain supplier but it also sounds similar to pc world approach that you ask for a vat receipt you get directed to their internal vat receipt providing subsidiary as a business customer

 

[Pound Coin]

My money is mine and it is good and right to try and retain as much of it as humanly possible.

How would you maintain, preserve or grow wealth otherwise?

It is off topic, but you value your wealth over life on earth?

 

[Pound Coin]

What emergency.

More people die due to cold weather events than warm weather ones. Cases of flu and other respitory illnesses soar in cold weather.

There's a very valid argument for saying global temperatures need to rise and rise much faster than they're supposedly rising.

Yes, some wild life will suffer but other species, especially aquatic life will thrive. Arguably some coastal areas may be lost but there's vast areas of this earth uninhabitable due to cold climates- suddenly they will become a lot more habitatable.

Again, off-topic, but it nicely shows up where you come from to other posters.

 

[sphexx]

This whole thread is an illustration of there’s none so blind as will not see .

And now we’ve got the climate change deniers etc on board, there seems be some overlap there.

I give up.

 

[Jim_Tod]

It’s a question of understanding the English language! Phrases like All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly using the weasel word covered and not paid clearly indicate that they have not been paid, and we know they cough up when caught.

It’s the usual sort of weasel wording that you see everywhere in adverts or on packaging, foodstuffs, herbal remedies and so on.

They are not crooks as they are outside U.K. jurisdiction and it’s evident to anyone that many/most Chinese firms have great customer service — you can see even in low value items where they just replace stuff as soon as there is a complaint. They seem to be much keener to look after their customers than must U.K. firms,

there would be no convincing you that alternatives to cheating by grey suppliers are available would there.

 

[jerry12953]

It is off topic, but you value your wealth over life on earth?

He does.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

@Jim_Tod

Words directly from the owner of Cotwsold Cameras posted in this thread https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/cotswold-cameras.544425/

I'd prefer this not to turn into a free for all so will clarify for all and then people can make a decision for themselves without the need for others to guess what is going on.

Our company is structured offshore as Alistair rightly says.

We do this so that we can operate outside UK VAT restrictions and offer cheaper prices.

Our intention is to offer customers a choice.
If you value the manufacturers warranty then buy UK stock from the many stockists.
If you would prefer to save money and buy imported goods but want the reassurance of UK customer service and a UK warranty as well as a 14 day money back return policy then you can shop with us.

No, you won't get a VAT receipt so if you are intending to claim VAT back then look elsewhere but for non business or non VAT registered business customers we are an option.

Choice is a great thing and we are just one of many but we aim to offer great service, no matter what.

No need to draw your attention to the VAT aspects

 

[jerry12953]

I'll rephrase the point I made above......

Why not discuss the contribution that photographers make to climate and ecological destruction by their activities ? For example buying photographic equipment, all the necessary IT hardware, driving, air travel........?

And does tacking an ecological message on to their work even begin to counteract all that damage?

Just a thought.

 

[Jim_Tod]

You are completely missing the point .

You are completely missing the point .

the point being that if i was going to open up a global business trading through grey imports i wouldn’t look to open it in the uk and sell only in the uk?

the point being that cotswold cameras do it from a uk base and explain how they do it and theres no imoort or duty charges to the end customer

it’s perhaps a coincidence that it’s a guy called Dave who owns Cotwsold Cameras. Dont know where he stays though.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Which is what i said in an earlier thread that i‘ve always assumed hdew keep a vat registered subsidiary. I dont know their internal workings as to where and when transactions are routed to define anend of chain supplier but it also sounds similar to pc world approach that you ask for a vat receipt you get directed to their internal vat receipt providing subsidiary as a business customer

The VAT receipt has to have the VAT number on it of the company you were dealing with. If it has the vat number of a separate company, even a subsidiary or parent then it's not a valid vat receipt.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

the point being that if i was going to open up a global business trading through grey imports i wouldn’t look to open it in the uk and sell only in the uk?

the point being that cotswold cameras do it from a uk base and explain how they do it and theres no imoort or duty charges to the end customer

it’s perhaps a coincidence that it’s a guy called Dave who owns Cotwsold Cameras. Dont know where he stays though.

The point being that if you buy it from Cotswolds and they arrange to import it for you, then you're the importer and should still be declaring it.

Cotswold's clarification proves what we've been saying. It's cheaper because there's no vat being added at the point of sale.

 

[Jim_Tod]

@Jim_Tod

Words directly from the owner of Cotwsold Cameras posted in this thread https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/cotswold-cameras.544425/




No need to draw your attention to the VAT aspects

Is it illegal?

is it any different to how i’ve described businesses structuring companies around global importation and being unable to give you a vat receipt

do they say they operate fraudulently?

if it’s a legal structure with legal practices in terms of taxes and operation then its a legal option. No different than structuring Amazon or Google, just a different scale

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You lose the manufacturers warranty as it's not made for that market. So he's correct in that sense.

Not usually in the case of lenses they are mostly covered by the makers international warranty. and are valid anywhere.

 

[Pound Coin]

Is it illegal?

is it any different to how i’ve described businesses structuring companies around global importation and being unable to give you a vat receipt

do they say they operate fraudulently?

if it’s a legal structure with legal practices in terms of taxes and operation then its a legal option. No different than structuring Amazon or Google, just a different scale

Not really, Amazon, Apple etc., you get a VAT receipt that is valid. (and you pay VAT)

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The point being that if you buy it from Cotswolds and they arrange to import it for you, then you're the importer and should still be declaring it.

Cotswold's clarification proves what we've been saying. It's cheaper because there's no vat being added at the point of sale.

How Cotswold do it only applies to them and their terms and conditions. You can not interpolate that to any one else.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

How Cotswold do it only applies to them and their terms and conditions. You can not interpolate that to any one else.

And Panamoz, from whom I've had undervalued packages from.

 

[SFTPhotography]

I'll rephrase the point I made above......

Why not discuss the contribution that photographers make to climate and ecological destruction by their activities ? For example buying photographic equipment, all the necessary IT hardware, driving, air travel........?

And does tacking an ecological message on to their work even begin to counteract all that damage?

Just a thought.

Don't you drive some dirty diesel guzzling campervan in the very pursuit of taking pictures?

Glass houses and stones.

 

[ukaskew]

the point being that if i was going to open up a global business trading through grey imports i wouldn’t look to open it in the uk and sell only in the uk?

Again missing the point. Dave isn't going to be sat at home in the UK, open a global business, shipping all over the world with offices in HK right off the bat with his £20k capital or whatever.

However if the price differentials really are that great, even with VAT paid, anyone with a few quid floating about could source a case of Sony A7IIIs outside of official Sony channels and ship them over, make a killing on eBay, buy another batch and so on and grow from there.

I do remember the Scottish seller importing from the US, that we have a single example (who as far as I'm aware no longer trades) in the past decade says it all really. Even then the VAT aspect was rather suspect.

If an individual can reliably and legally undercut UK RRPs and ship next day delivery from within the UK, they'd be doing it.

 

[sphexx]

Is it illegal?

is it any different to how i’ve described businesses structuring companies around global importation and being unable to give you a vat receipt

do they say they operate fraudulently?

if it’s a legal structure with legal practices in terms of taxes and operation then its a legal option. No different than structuring Amazon or Google, just a different scale

No one has said direct importation is illegal! Any illegality would come from failure to declare it. And no one has greatly criticised anyone for doing it. The howls of anguish have come from the importers! I dont know what that says but it’s interesting.

Edit, typo.

 

[Jim_Tod]

No one has said direct importation is illegal! Any illegality would come from failure to declare it. And no one has greatly criticised anyone for doing it. The howls of anguish have come from the importers! I dint know what that says but it’s interesting.

Sure it's not voices in your head as I'm not really hearing howls of anguish

You have an interpretation and I have an interpretation of what might be occurring. Yours appears quite narrow - grey sellers are crooks and grey purchasers are smugglers even if the sellers t&c's note they deal with import and duty. Mine allows for your position but also recognises that other possibilities exist as to how the costs can be lower than official importation channels. I've provided examples of that including a well publicised case between two massive companies. I'll assume you're just trolling now as you don't appear to hear anything other than a narrow perspective which only agrees wholly with you.

 

[nandbytes]

For example,

WEX Sony A1 £6499 with a 1 year warranty

Panamoz £5380 + vat = £6456 with a 3 year warranty

Sony regularly run offers where they give free extended warranty card with their FF cameras. And if they aren't, if you ask nicely a number of shops will throw them in for free and especially if have a good relationship with them.
All my Sony lenses (all UK bought) have 2 extended warranty too. Sigma and tamron provide 5 years warranty anyway (though unlike Sony and panamoz they aren't transferable).
All in all the 3 years warranty at least for someone shooting with Sony isn't that big an attraction tbh

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

Puzzled! This has been a most enjoyable and educational thread so far. I never realised that all you smugglers were so keen to believe you weren’t that. I thought you were enjoying beating the Revenue men and thwarting the monopolistic tendencies of the global capitalist system whereas most just seem keen to claim all the VAT has been paid.

I believe I am a smuggler.last lifetime I was with long John baldry ,sorry silver lol

 

[sphexx]

I believe I am a smuggler.last lifetime I was with long John baldry ,sorry silver lol

None of the smugglers here seem to live up to Kipling’s Gentlemen

IF you wake at midnight, and hear a horse's feet,
Don't go drawing back the blind, or looking in the street,
Them that ask no questions isn't told a lie.
Watch the wall my darling while the Gentlemen go by.

 

[Adamcski]

Well this thread turned out like the ones on my watch and precious metal forums lol.

It is interesting to see the difference of opinions on these issues though.

I've not used grey market as I only have a Canon M50 mkii and a few lenses which were brought from John Lewis lol.

Still think it's wrong to call those who purchase grey 'smugglers' when there will be those throwing stones from glass houses that deliberately pay themselves low PAYE and dividends to avoid paying the tax they would have done (and the NI) if they were PAYE.

I have two ltd companies and take income as PAYE before anyone suggests otherwise, just my 2k divided allowance...and this was pre IR35. They are two different companies in different areas also.

One individual is purchasing grey to avoid / evade tax (morals being questioned) knowingly...LTD owners choosing pay structures that are legal, but doing so to deliberately reduce their tax / NI contributions...could also be seen as a moral issue..

Just my 2p