Grey imports snags?

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madmardle

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There is a very big difference in the prices of grey imports and " normal" prices, sometimes as much as £200, at least at the camera I had been considering. (Nikon D7100, £625 as opposed to £839) Apart from the fact that you obviously couldn't send a faulty grey camera back to the official UK importer, what other snags are there? Some of the outfits such as HDEW seem to be UK based although I understand they import from Hong Kong. Why is there such a difference in prices, are they subject to hidden taxes?
Presumably if the camera is OK and doesn't ever develop faults, I ask myself why would anyone pay £500+ for a used camera when a new one could be bought for an extra £100.
Although I have decided against upgrading at the moment, thanks in part to advice received on here, I would be grateful for any thoughts and experiences from members, good or bad, for when I do decide to make the move.
 
There are many pitfalls to buying grey imports. As you say if the camera develops a fault that is when you could run into difficulties. They are cheaper because in the UK VAT is added and import duties. I guess you pay more for peace of mind knowing if it goes wrong it should be a lot smoother process to repair. I personally wouldn't buy electronics as grey imports, many do and have no issues but there are some horror stories out there. Now a lens I may consider.
 
The difference in price is pretty simple, they are, there or thereabouts, minus VAT. Many grey importers will send the goods into the UK 'covertly', labelling them as cheap toy parts etc (well documented in the Shopping section of this very forum), therefore helping you to circumvent the various taxes you as the importer are legally required to pay.

There is nothing stopping you correctly declaring it on arrival and claiming the money back from the store you purchased it from (most say they will reimburse you if this happens), which puts you in the clear legally, but doesn't help in terms of the other issues when buying grey, such as warranties etc.

Technically nothing wrong with importing though, it's up to the individual to weigh up the savings they are making vs the cost of repairs if the store vanishes and you have issues.
 
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HDEW are different to the usual Hong Kong based suspects (many of which are intentionally vague as to where they actually operate from) as they do genuinely operate from within the UK, whilst the products are grey I believe they often (always?) dispatch direct from within the UK, they can also supply VAT receipts, which the likes of Panamoz certainly can't.
 
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Sphinx said:
According to the hdew website it says all products are repaired in uk.

http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/store-policiesfaq-2-w.asp

Might be worth contacting them to double check this.
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HDEW are a UK based company that deals in grey imports, THEY take responsibility and are the legal importer. They also pay the UK vat as they are in the UK.

The others like Panamoz, Digital Rev etc are based in Hong Kong and they use illegal methods to get the goods into the country (and you, as the buyer are responsible for the UK declaration and duty).

They don't pay the vat or duty as it is not their responsibility. Some do promise to refund the duty if you pay it, but to complicate matters they normally falsely declare the item and it's value on the HK customs declaration.

You can do the import and declare the true value, this keeps you legal in the UK or you can import and keep quiet, but you are actually committing a crime by doing so.

It's a choice for an individual to make themselves.
 
I've bought cameras twice from Panamoz and never had any issues (including when using the warranty on one of them).

Yes it's questionable legally, but for me saving £600 on the UK price of a 5dMkiii was well worth it. I think we all pay the government enough tax as it is, so if I can get something cheaper then I will.

Also they took a camera back after 3 months because of a known issue (D600 oil problem) without hesitation, and we're extremely professional when doing so.

I'd certainly not pay the difference for a UK camera when the savings from grey imports are so huge.
 
EspressoJunkie said:
Yes it's questionable legally, but for me saving £600 on the UK price of a 5dMkiii was well worth it. I think we all pay the government enough tax as it is, so if I can get something cheaper then I will.
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It's not "questionable"; it's 100% illegal and you know it. If you want to save money, I suggest you should consider stealing one. It works out much cheaper, and it's just as legal.
 
madmardle said:
There is a very big difference in the prices of grey imports and " normal" prices, sometimes as much as £200, at least at the camera I had been considering. (Nikon D7100, £625 as opposed to £839) Apart from the fact that you obviously couldn't send a faulty grey camera back to the official UK importer, what other snags are there? Some of the outfits such as HDEW seem to be UK based although I understand they import from Hong Kong. Why is there such a difference in prices, are they subject to hidden taxes?
Presumably if the camera is OK and doesn't ever develop faults, I ask myself why would anyone pay £500+ for a used camera when a new one could be bought for an extra £100.
Although I have decided against upgrading at the moment, thanks in part to advice received on here, I would be grateful for any thoughts and experiences from members, good or bad, for when I do decide to make the move.
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It puts the prices up for everyone else in the future.
 
Stuff is more expensive in the UK because it's more expensive to run a business here and maintain a presence. Canon UK is a separate business to Canon-anywhere-else and thus has it's own overheads, premises costs, repair tech costs, marketing costs, management costs, creative costs, rep costs, distribution costs...

By purchasing gear from outside of the UK, Canon UK don't get to write it into their sales figures which ultimately means that their business is less likely to be profitable in this country (if everyone did it). In turn that would mean that Canon UK drop their level of service in all areas, and if EVERYONE bought from outside there would simply not be a Canon presence in the UK (worst case scenario). Where would we get our emergency repairs and last minute bits of kit then?

Thinking more holistically and less about business - taxes pay for us to have the fantastic state support that we currently have. We have free education until we're 18, we have hospitals, we have emergency services. You might think that £600 off your camera is a GREAT deal, but that's £600 you're not putting into the pot to pay for services that you use.
 
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EspressoJunkie said:
Yeah but if I steal one then I might go to jail.....I'm too pretty to survive inside ;-)
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You can actually go to prison for tax evasion. You can also be fined up to £100k from memory? Unlikely in this situation, however it's not actually impossible.
 
CharlotteM said:
You can actually go to prison for tax evasion. You can also be fined up to £100k from memory? Unlikely in this situation, however it's not actually impossible.
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Lol yeah I know I was being facetious. I know some people feel strongly about the whole grey import thing, but being purely selfish (and I realise it is) as I said if I can save myself £600 then I will.
 
EspressoJunkie said:
Lol yeah I know I was being facetious. I know some people feel strongly about the whole grey import thing, but being purely selfish (and I realise it is) as I said if I can save myself £600 then I will.
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I kind of feel like... well... I guess I hope those £600 of services that you've not paid the government for are ones that you don't need!
 
StewartR said:
It's not "questionable"; it's 100% illegal and you know it. If you want to save money, I suggest you should consider stealing one. It works out much cheaper, and it's just as legal.
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Why don't the HMRC clamp down on this type of thing if they know it is going on?
 
Laudrup said:
Why don't the HMRC clamp down on this type of thing if they know it is going on?
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Limited resources (ironically because of govt cuts no doubt), there are thousands of packages coming in every day, they can only check a minute sample, otherwise your parcel would probably be in a year long backlog at a port or airport somewhere.
 
At the end of the day Charlotte has put it dead straight, you need to make the decision on these purchases not on you saving a few pounds and worrying about warranty but the fact you are avaoiding paying tax.

I am a UK company Director and my business imports some items fromoutside of the EU we pay/declare everything full stop because its our legal duty.
As an individual you still have the same responsibilities to do so.
 
StewartR said:
It's not "questionable"; it's 100% illegal and you know it. If you want to save money, I suggest you should consider stealing one. It works out much cheaper, and it's just as legal.
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Can I ask a question ? - If you import the camera via Digtal Rev for example and pay the 20% import duty - is it still classed as illegal even if you have paid the duty?
 
Sphinx said:
Can I ask a question ? - If you import the camera via Digtal Rev for example and pay the 20% import duty - is it still classed as illegal even if you have paid the duty?
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Pay the duty fully legal.
 
If you declare an item's true value and pay the full duty and the Vat due , then its legal - trouble is that in some cases grey items aren't actually cheaper then the Uk market once you've done that

If you only pay the duty based on a false declaration of value by the sender (which some grey importers do - though i'm not saying anything about a specific company) then you are still evading tax and thus still breaking the law if you get caught.

Personally when i buy grey i either buy from a company that has a uk warehouse (so that import is their issue) and which will provide a vat receipt - or i work out what the price plus vat and import duty will be and only buy items offshore if they are stillcheaper once these are taken into consideration.
 
A few years ago I bought a Nikon D200 from Digital Rev. I think the saving was just over £200. Part of the listing was that they would pay any Customs Duty. About a week after receiving the camera I got bill from HMRC, which I paid. Digital Rev quickly refunded what I paid.

All fine and good, but if I had done a bit more research and realised that Nikon wouldn't have touched it if anything would have gone wrong I wouldn't have bought via import. :-( Nothing went wrong while it was my main camera but I think there is something not quite right with it now. Maybe that's because my newer camera is more consistent, but I don't have confidence in it.

I never sold it because I would have taken too much of a loss on it because it was an import. It is now my spare camera when I do some sport. It is mainly used as my time lapse camera now.
 
Sphinx said:
Can I ask a question ? - If you import the camera via Digtal Rev for example and pay the 20% import duty - is it still classed as illegal even if you have paid the duty?
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Also just to pick up the customs duty isnt 20% - customs duty varies depending on the comodity code (which varies depending on whats being bought and where from), but for electronics from outside the EU its usually about 9% (theres various calculators on line) - however on top of customs duty you also have to pay VAT at 20%

so for example a number of grey importers have the 7D available for £575

so total bill will be £575 + Customs duty circa £51.57 + Vat £115 = £741.57

UK price is about £900 so you still make about a £150 saving (depending on whether the importer also charges shipping) - whether that saving is worth the risk regarding warranty etc is a call the individual needs to make themselves

most grey importers say they will refund customs charges - whether they really will reportedly varies from importer to importer - some are basically tellingporkies, some will refund the whole lot without question, and somewill only refund to the value they mark on the parcel. - I'm not saying anything about any specific company.

On the whole though its wise to budget as though they won't so that you are pleasantly suprised if they do

Lastly just to mention thast many importers offer a discount if you pay by Bank transfer - this is fine if you trust the company, but it offers the least consumer protection, so if you arent 100% sure of the supplier its better to pay by credit card or paypal
 
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StewartR said:
It's not "questionable"; it's 100% illegal and you know it. If you want to save money, I suggest you should consider stealing one. It works out much cheaper, and it's just as legal.
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Whats a guy supposed to do, take a look at this, look under the quick overview section http://panamoz.com/index.php/digital-cameras/nikon/nikon-d800-slr-digital-camera-body-only.html Where also clearly states the prices include VAT

Or this http://panamoz.com/index.php/digital-cameras/nikon.html?dir=desc&order=price Where it also clearly states the prices include VAT

Now me and you can wink and nudge all we want but to the general internet shopper, well whats he to do, do you label him a criminal because he quite rightly thought the VAT has been paid
 
If he can produce paperwork that clearly shows that he thought he paid the vat (like a shipping invoice with the VAT ammount on it) it is unlikely that HMRC will pursue him - they may have some words to say to the supplier (unless of course the supplier has a uk base and is in fact Vat registered)

A good check is to ask the supplier for thier Vat number before you place an order - anyone who is vat registered won't have a problem supplying this and indeed should issue a vat receipt with it on as well
 
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Gary Coyle said:
Now me and you can wink and nudge all we want but to the general internet shopper, well whats he to do, do you label him a criminal because he quite rightly thought the VAT has been paid
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It's a fair question Gary, and I don't have a good answer.

The person here who mentioned buying from that retailer clearly believed he had evaded a large amount of tax, so I don't think a claim of innocence or ignorance would wash in his particular case. But in general, yes, it's a major problem. There are retailers who are misleading buyers into thinking that a transaction is completely legal, and - as you say - how are they supposed to know better?
 
Laudrup said:
Why don't the HMRC clamp down on this type of thing if they know it is going on?
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They do now & again. It seems to go through phases though.
Presume they're always on the look-out in general & do manage to catch out a very small % every day, but a few months ago they seemed to be `targeting` certain sellers, panom0z was certainly mentioned at the time. Maybe once the level of interest by purchasers from certain sellers reaches a certain point, the sellers `details` get flagged up?
Also individuals reporting concerns to HMRC & maybe even the logistics companies themselves have legal requirements of notification, especially if they suspect anything dodgy?

Who remembers procamerash0p :) or even BIG Norman :LOL:
 
big soft moose said:
If he can produce paperwork that clearly shows that he thought he paid the vat (like a shipping invoice with the VAT ammount on it) it is unlikely that HMRC will pursue him - they may have some words to say to the supplier (unless of course the supplier has a uk base and is in fact Vat registered)

A good check is to ask the supplier for thier Vat number before you place an order - anyone who is vat registered won't have a problem supplying this and indeed should issue a vat receipt with it on as well
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Who on earth does that though Pete, the savvy guy like me and you might but what about the other 99% of the general public who just go online to shop and simply click and buy.
 
To be honest that's their problem - and one they'll need to discuss with HMRC if they get caught. - generally speaking though unless someone gets reported to the HMRC the only way they'll get caught is if the goods are stopped at customs, and all that happens then is they get impounded until the bill is paid. (the other potential cock up is someone running a business who puts the acquisytion of grey kit on his tax return - but you'd have to be fairly daft to do that)

I'd hope that there are enough of these threads arround on photo forums and the net in general that even a simple internet search would bring one up - and if someone buys from an internet shop without first checking its credentials then its really a case of more fool them
 
What does hurt is when you're charged £8 to pay the duty/vat owing.......when it's only £3 (fully declared genuine import amount)
 
braveboy2012 said:
Lots of valid points made here. I'm off to think about buying off amazon while sipping my starbucks coffee...
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When were Amazon or Starbucks found guilty (or even accused) of tax evasion?
 
StewartR said:
It's a fair question Gary, and I don't have a good answer.

The person here who mentioned buying from that retailer clearly believed he had evaded a large amount of tax, so I don't think a claim of innocence or ignorance would wash in his particular case. But in general, yes, it's a major problem. There are retailers who are misleading buyers into thinking that a transaction is completely legal, and - as you say - how are they supposed to know better?
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Yeah I knew exactly what I was doing! Unless the customs people are reading this, in which case I didn't have a clue.....honest!

But Gary makes a valid point though, these sites do make it seem like everything is above board.
 
mrgubby said:
I'd always thought the difference between avoidance and evasion was a good accountant .....
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Nail.......................head:)
 
mrgubby said:
I'd always thought the difference between avoidance and evasion was a good accountant .....
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Jimmy Carr thought that. So did Chris Moyles. They weren't right, and nor are you.
 
mrgubby said:
I'd always thought the difference between avoidance and evasion was a good accountant .....
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Definitely true, a good accountant will always know what is legal and what is illegal and should never allow his client to commit tax evasion.

The accountant doesn't make money from the ex-client in jail or made bankrupt by HMRC ;).
 
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