Grey Card

[BillN_33]

I'm getting a bit obsessed about different colour sensors, different colours produced by different lenses, colour monitor calibration and grey cards etc.,

Plus going around in circles

Grey Card - prices range from £Nil for a white sheet of paper - £5 from China and over £50 plus taxes etc., for the WhiBal G7 from Japan

anyone use a Grey card regularly i.e. each time you think the light changes

 

[F1.2]

I have a grey card , It's A4 size , Purchased it decades ago from Jessops.
Use it with my 6x6 6x7 cameras and sometimes with my Nikon F3's.

 

[BillN_33]

I have a grey card , It's A4 size , Purchased it decades ago from Jessops.
Use it with my 6x6 6x7 cameras and sometimes with my Nikon F3's.

with film - does it work with film, I thought that the WB in film was just fixed to "Daylight" apart from a few specialist "films" that are fixed in a another type of setting

 

[sk66]

anyone use a Grey card regularly i.e. each time you think the light changes

with film - does it work with film, I thought that the WB in film was just fixed to "Daylight" apart from a few specialist "films" that are fixed in a another type of setting

Sounds like you are wanting to use it to set a custom white balance in camera? I would use an inexpensive white balance cap if that's something you want to do frequently.
Usually a grey card is used to set the exposure; and any greyscale (i.e. white/white balance) card is used to correct the color in post (works for printing film as well)..

You can also use a color checker for this; and some can be used to create a calibrated camera profile for LR/PS/C1... Although "calibrated" might be a bit generous, it's just better overall (a lot like monitor calibration is); and those are even more expensive.

 

[BillN_33]

Sounds like you are wanting to use it to set a custom white balance in camera? I would use an inexpensive white balance cap if that's something you want to do frequently.
Usually a grey card is used to set the exposure. And any greyscale (i.e. white/white balance) card is used to correct the color in post (that works for printing film as well)..

You can also use a color checker for this; and some can be used to create a calibrated camera profile for LR/PS/C1... Although "calibrated" might be a bit generous;,it's just better overall (a lot like monitor calibration is); and those are even more expensive.

as usual Steven thanks - I was thinking about setting the WB especially for portraits as some OOC colours can be "different" to actual

 

[myotis]

I'm getting a bit obsessed about different colour sensors, different colours produced by different lenses, colour monitor calibration and grey cards etc.,

Plus going around in circles

Grey Card - prices range from £Nil for a white sheet of paper - £5 from China and over £50 plus taxes etc., for the WhiBal G7 from Japan

anyone use a Grey card regularly i.e. each time you think the light changes

Grey cards aren't designed to assess colour, even if they provide a rough and ready hack to help assess white balance (albeit in a limited manner). But, hose sold with a promise of narrow tolerances in their colour and reflectance will make it easier to get consistent results over time. As an aside, the "colour" and reflectance of white paper is all over the place.

Grey cards were only meant to offer a standard reflectance to help assess exposure. Even then there are limitations as meters aren't necessarily calibrated to the same reflectance values used by the grey cards. and the different manufacturers calibrate their meters differently, and indeed can use different reflectances for their grey cards

This may not matter that much if you only want a standardised "starting point" to assess differences between sensors or lenses but it would be better to use checker cards with multiple colour swatches for any "serious" assessment of colour.

 

[BillN_33]

Grey cards aren't designed to assess colour, even if they provide a rough and ready hack to help assess white balance (albeit in a limited manner). But, hose sold with a promise of narrow tolerances in their colour and reflectance will make it easier to get consistent results over time. As an aside, the "colour" and reflectance of white paper is all over the place.

Grey cards were only meant to offer a standard reflectance to help assess exposure. Even then there are limitations as meters aren't necessarily calibrated to the same reflectance values used by the grey cards. and the different manufacturers calibrate their meters differently, and indeed can use different reflectances for their grey cards

This may not matter that much if you only want a standardised "starting point" to assess differences between sensors or lenses but it would be better to use checker cards with multiple colour swatches for any "serious" assessment of colour.

so is the answer just to use Auto WB when shooting outside in daylight as I have always done?

 

[sk66]

as usual Steven thanks - I was thinking about setting the WB especially for portraits as some OOC colours can be "different" to actual

Usually a white balance reference is placed in the scene for the first image. And that is used to correct the white balance in post... that correction is then applied ("synced" in LR) to all other images from that shoot.

The only requirement for the reference target is that it has equal R/G/B values (i.e. it is some shade of greyscale), and that it doesn't get clipped (i.e. record as pure white/black). Fact is, color is such an *imprecise thing with digital that you can generally use just about anything that appears to be greyscale to get better/close enough results... i.e. the suggestion to use the camera bag lining.

(*much is out of your control)

 

[sk66]

so is the answer just to use Auto WB when shooting outside in daylight as I have always done?

No, not necessarily. For "a shoot" I would use a fixed white balance; that way a single white balance correction can be applied to all images from the session. Auto white balance can shift between images due to the various colors in the scene even if the lighting hasn't changed.

Which white balance you use doesn't really matter if you are recording raw images. It matters more if you are recording jpegs; and it matters a whole lot if recording jpegs and editing them in 8 bit.

 

[myotis]

so is the answer just to use Auto WB when shooting outside in daylight as I have always done?

It depends, I thought you were trying to investigate the nuances of how sensors or and lenses affected colour.

However, if this is about achieving a pleasing white balance, I rarely if ever use auto white balance.

I only shoot raw, so it doesn't matter what the colour balance is in the camera, but I use a fixed white balance for colour consistency when I upload the files, I don't want the camera messing around with the white balance of every picture.

If I'm photographing in warm light, I want a warm light picture or in cool light I want a cool light picture ie I want the overall image colour to reflect the light that existed when I took the picture, not what the camera thinks it should be. Unlike a colour temperature meter where you point it at the light source, the camera is guessing at "a" colour temperature based on the light reflected by the subjects, and this is likely to change with every exposure.

I also often find that the best "white balance" is different in different parts of the picture. ie the foreground might benefit from a slightly warmer white balance, and the background a slightly cooler one. And fleshtones, if there are people in the picture, needing a third colour temperature.

If was doing something where I was controlling the lighting and a grey card could be placed beside the subject, I would consider using it as a starting point reference to help choose an appropriate white balance. I also wouldn't be averse to doing this with people pictures, getting the person to occasionally hold the card so it gets the same light as the person holding it. But simply correcting the white balance for the greycard, doesn't necessarily mean you are going to get the best white balance for the person, even if it gives you a consistent starting point.

If I was doing something scientific/technical that needed "accurate" colours I would use a colour checker card. But for most purposes humans don't like accurate colours as our memory remember colours brighter and more saturated than they really were, and we all see colours slightly differently anyway. So, for all other purposes, I see white balance as a creative, rather than technical, decision.

 

[BillN_33]

It depends, I thought you were trying to investigate the nuances of how sensors or and lenses affected colour.

I was - I have a few different digital camera lens set ups' - 3 x Leica and 2 x Nikon plus a few more "small" fixed lens cameras, (but I have also started using my M6 again to see if it's worth keeping)

I take quite a few images of my grandchildren and I have noticed different "colours" - but also in other shots

all I planned to do was to use a gray card to set the WB in camera for each set up, to get a consistence start point - as a start to examine any visual differences

I always shoot RAW, (NEF and DNG) with jpegs of the same shot - B & W jpegs with the Leica stuff and color jpegs with the D850 - I recently bought a Zf to give Nikon mirrorless a go, and the colours OOC from that sensor are noticeably different, to me anyway, than the other set ups - so that's were my grey card journey began, but from what I have read in this thread it seems to say you may as well just do it in post, (which I have always done), but I thought that there may be a better start point before LR, and if I set the WB using a grey card before each shoot I would have a comparable "start point", between set ups

(I usually take a couple of cameras with me and a recently used the Leica Q and the Zf with the 40mm f2 Z lens together as it were - (the rendering? of the colours in LR OOC), between the 2 were noticeable different)

 

[myotis]

I was - I have a few different digital camera lens set ups' - 3 x Leica and 2 x Nikon plus a few more "small" fixed lens cameras, (but I have also started using my M6 again to see if it's worth keeping)

I take quite a few images of my grandchildren and I have noticed different "colours" - but also in other shots

all I planned to do was to use a gray card to set the WB in camera for each set up, to get a consistence start point - as a start to examine any visual differences

I always shoot RAW, (NEF and DNG) with jpegs of the same shot - B & W jpegs with the Leica stuff and color jpegs with the D850 - I recently bought a Zf to give Nikon mirrorless a go, and the colours OOC from that sensor are noticeably different, to me anyway, than the other set ups - so that's were my grey card journey began, but from what I have read in this thread it seems to say you may as well just do it in post, (which I have always done), but I thought that there may be a better start point before LR, and if I set the WB using a grey card before each shoot I would have a comparable "start point", between set ups

(I usually take a couple of cameras with me and a recently used the Leica Q and the Zf with the 40mm f2 Z lens together as it were - (the rendering? of the colours in LR OOC), between the 2 were noticeable different)

This is probably more than just a white balance issue, and related to the camera profiles your software is applying.

The SOOC jpegs are always going to be different, because each camera maker tries to out guess what kind of colours, contrast and saturation its customers will like and build those colours into the Jpeg style options. Even with raw files, every camera produces raws with slightly different starting points, and then you rely on how the software makers want to interpret those characteristics when applying their camera profile to the file.

However, the gey card approach might be a reasonable starting point, and you might not need to do this more than once. You can create a different preset for the corrections needed for each camera, and get LR to automatically apply the appropriate preset on import.. But a correction based on the grey card might not apply the correction needed for skin tones., or greens etc, because you are only correcting a single point. Nonetheless, it might be worth looking into before trying something more complicated.

You might not even need a grey card, just look at the raws as they open in LR and use the color calibration sliders to try and match the colour characteristics. You could also try the different profiles that LR offers. And then save whatever you end up with as a custom import for each camera.

You can also build custom profiles, which would make a better job of matching colours and contrast across the spectrum of colours (not just the midtones). The calibrite color checker passport will allow you to build custom camera profiles and there is also Lumariver https://www.lumariver.com/ which is a slightly more sophisticated profile builder. You can also buy Profiles that are meant to be consistent across different cameras. e.g. https://www.cobalt-image.com/.

DXO is meant to produce consistent results across all camera bodies if you use their custom profiles instead of the profiles they offer to emulate different camera manufacturer profils. I thought this was what the Adobe color profiles did, but obviously not and as I find the Adobe standard profiles rather unpleasant I haven't given them much attention.

I always start from a linear profile which is flat and fairly colourless, so the differences you are experiencing are far less noticeable, and I tend not to take photos that need colour matched. I'm not sure I've ever used SOOC Jpegs.

Maybe someone with more experience of dealing with the problem will be able to suggest a good solution.

 

[BillN_33]

This is probably more than just a white balance issue, and related to the camera profiles your software is applying.

The SOOC jpegs are always going to be different, because each camera maker tries to out guess what kind of colours, contrast and saturation its customers will like and build those colours into the Jpeg style options. Even with raw files, every camera produces raws with slightly different starting points, and then you rely on how the software makers want to interpret those characteristics when applying their camera profile to the file.

However, the gey card approach might be a reasonable starting point, and you might not need to do this more than once. You can create a different preset for the corrections needed for each camera, and get LR to automatically apply the appropriate preset on import.. But a correction based on the grey card might not apply the correction needed for skin tones., or greens etc, because you are only correcting a single point. Nonetheless, it might be worth looking into before trying something more complicated.

You might not even need a grey card, just look at the raws as they open in LR and use the color calibration sliders to try and match the colour characteristics. You could also try the different profiles that LR offers. And then save whatever you end up with as a custom import for each camera.

You can also build custom profiles, which would make a better job of matching colours and contrast across the spectrum of colours (not just the midtones). The calibrite color checker passport will allow you to build custom camera profiles and there is also Lumariver https://www.lumariver.com/ which is a slightly more sophisticated profile builder. You can also buy Profiles that are meant to be consistent across different cameras. e.g. https://www.cobalt-image.com/.

DXO is meant to produce consistent results across all camera bodies if you use their custom profiles instead of the profiles they offer to emulate different camera manufacturer profils. I thought this was what the Adobe color profiles did, but obviously not and as I find the Adobe standard profiles rather unpleasant I haven't given them much attention.

I always start from a linear profile which is flat and fairly colourless, so the differences you are experiencing are far less noticeable, and I tend not to take photos that need colour matched. I'm not sure I've ever used SOOC Jpegs.

Maybe someone with more experience of dealing with the problem will be able to suggest a good solution.

Thank you

The Leicas have a couple of grey card options in the menu that can be set and used and built into the user profile or whatever, or just used as a once off

not sure about the Zf - I'll have to look

 

[sk66]

I was - I have a few different digital camera lens set ups' - 3 x Leica and 2 x Nikon plus a few more "small" fixed lens cameras, (but I have also started using my M6 again to see if it's worth keeping)

I take quite a few images of my grandchildren and I have noticed different "colours" - but also in other shots

all I planned to do was to use a gray card to set the WB in camera for each set up, to get a consistence start point - as a start to examine any visual differences

I don't think there's any real benefit to using a grey card to set a custom white balance in each camera... I don't see that as being any different than setting them all up to the same fixed white balance (i.e. 5000k for sunlight); because I suspect they will all still generate different results anyway.

If your goal is to generate as similar results as possible ("correct" colors) I think your best bet is to just include a reference in the first image with each camera. Then LR's WB adjustment will correct them all to the same degree (exposures may be different). And, if you wanted to fine tune that for personal preference you could; and then sync the adjustments to all other images.

 

[myotis]

Thank you

The Leicas have a couple of grey card options that can be set and used and build into the user profile or whatever, or just use as a once off

not sure about the Zf - I'll have to look

You can set the white balance from a grey card in Nikon cameras using he direct measurement option, but my feelings are that the issue is more to do with camera profiles than white balance. It wll be interesting to see how much adjusting white balance with a grey card helps.

 

[BillN_33]

Thanks guys

maybe I'll just get rid of the Zf - I was happy before that came along - (or maybe I just need to see what the in camera settings are)

 

[myotis]

Thanks guys

maybe I'll just get rid of the Zf - I was happy before that came along - (or maybe I just need to see what the in camera settings are)

For in camera settings, you should also look at the Nikon picture control editor;

Nikon Picture Control Editor

Nikon picture control editor. The web application lets you view and edit nikon camera styles directly in a web browser. Follow picture control parameters can be modified: custom curve, gamma, sharpness, saturation, hue, etc

nikonpc.com

 

[TimHughes]

which picture profiles are you using in the cameras? usually, there are ways to amend the tweak the wb and profiles in the cameras. in my experience getting different models, even from the same manufacturer can be quite a pain. using a color checker would help get the colors matched see

View: https://youtu.be/4nptTlshWdc?si=CFKxKbzDel-BuYCU

 

[myotis]

Thanks guys

maybe I'll just get rid of the Zf - I was happy before that came along - (or maybe I just need to see what the in camera settings are)

To add to my last post on Nikon Picture Controls for SOOC images. This chap, a Leica user/enthusiast who has added a Zf and Z6 to his leicas, has produced LR presets for the Nikons that allow him to match the "Leica look" that he gets with his LR presets for his Leicas..

SHOP - Leica Blog (Matt Osborne)

"Enjoy fast pain-free editing with presets"

mrleica.com

He also some videos on when he first tried the Z6/Zf and discusses how they compare to his Leicas, but I haven't searched out these links for you :-(

And to add to my earlier suggestion of creating camera profiles with a colour checker, this video augments the one that Tim posted, but with a specific focus on creating camera profiles:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLQTSQBd2jc

 

[LeeRatters]

You need to do more than just a custom WB.

I have a LR profile/preset than I use most of the time for my Sony bodies. I have done for quite a while now. When I bought (added) an X100f at the beginning of the year, and used the same profile, things were noticeably different. I had to tweak HSL, curves, etc to get them closer and "good enough" - I typically use a daylight WB most of the time, but the auto in the Fuji is pretty good imo.

 

[Mostly Vintage Cameras]

Colour management extends from image capture through to editing including monitor calibration and onto printer calibration if you make prints. One simple, low cost "thing" like a grey card cannot cover all of this, assuming you really want to nail it down properly.
Your best option would be to spend 30 mins or so talking to Datacolour on the telephone. They are very helpful and if nothing else you will come away with a lot ok knowledge.
Datacolor UK Ltd


Suite 11, Unit 16 Leeway Estate
Newport
NP19 4SL


Phone: 44 161 9299441

 

[BillN_33]

You need to do more than just a custom WB.

I have a LR profile/preset than I use most of the time for my Sony bodies. I have done for quite a while now. When I bought (added) an X100f at the beginning of the year, and used the same profile, things were noticeably different. I had to tweak HSL, curves, etc to get them closer and "good enough" - I typically use a daylight WB most of the time, but the auto in the Fuji is pretty good imo.

Thanks guys - really good illustrations and suggestions

Lee - I realise this - included in my LR workflow is Calibration to adjust the RGB colours and colour grading and HSL to adjust the individual colours - what I am considering with this grey card thread is what the manufacturer camera defaults are, and I am trying to see if I can get more of a standardised output as a start point for LR - but the LR workflow is becoming more and more complicated as (maybe because Adobe are introducing Ai into the Develop module), and there are more and more possibilities to change colours, (if we are just considering colour change), and play around with what I think that I saw. - (but these adjustments can just send me/you around in circles)

as far as LR is concerned I think, as has been suggested, pre-sets are a (simple/qick) answer

as far as what comes out of the camera is concerned, the manufacturers defaults, I just need to look at that further

 

[BillN_33]

For in camera settings, you should also look at the Nikon picture control editor;

Nikon Picture Control Editor

Nikon picture control editor. The web application lets you view and edit nikon camera styles directly in a web browser. Follow picture control parameters can be modified: custom curve, gamma, sharpness, saturation, hue, etc

nikonpc.com

which picture profiles are you using in the cameras? usually, there are ways to amend the tweak the wb and profiles in the cameras. in my experience getting different models, even from the same manufacturer can be quite a pain. using a color checker would help get the colors matched see

View: https://youtu.be/4nptTlshWdc?si=CFKxKbzDel-BuYCU

To add to my last post on Nikon Picture Controls for SOOC images. This chap, a Leica user/enthusiast who has added a Zf and Z6 to his leicas, has produced LR presets for the Nikons that allow him to match the "Leica look" that he gets with his LR presets for his Leicas..

SHOP - Leica Blog (Matt Osborne)

"Enjoy fast pain-free editing with presets"

mrleica.com

He also some videos on when he first tried the Z6/Zf and discusses how they compare to his Leicas, but I haven't searched out these links for you :-(

And to add to my earlier suggestion of creating camera profiles with a colour checker, this video augments the one that Tim posted, but with a specific focus on creating camera profiles:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLQTSQBd2jc

You need to do more than just a custom WB.

I have a LR profile/preset than I use most of the time for my Sony bodies. I have done for quite a while now. When I bought (added) an X100f at the beginning of the year, and used the same profile, things were noticeably different. I had to tweak HSL, curves, etc to get them closer and "good enough" - I typically use a daylight WB most of the time, but the auto in the Fuji is pretty good imo.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to answer