Grey Card & White Balancing

Rob.Marsh

Rob.Marsh

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Now my understanding and my ability (what little I currently have) has led me down the path to wanting to be able to completely understand and nail white balancing.

I am currently using AWB and adjusting in PP as I shoot RAW.

Does anyone have any recommended reading white balancing, and can anyone recomment the best type of grey card for an amateur/newb to use?

Thanks

Rob M
 
the 5D manual says it's best to use a 25% grey card IIRC
 
Thats interesting, I always thought 18% grey was what is required. :shrug: now I am more confused!
 
I always thought it was 18% as well. Not sure about the best card to use, I assumed that they were all 18%. You need to remember to meter off the card in the same light that is falling on your subject.
 
It's 18%.

TBH Rob, I do the same as you; shoot in RAW under sunny WB and if I don't like the colours, then I use the excellent custom WB pipette in Adobe Lightroom to select an area of the picture that is about 18% grey, check the colour on the square loupe grid, then click and the WB is pretty much spot on corrected :)
 
For white balance readings it doesn't really matter what %age the card is, as long as the card is a true neutral gray.
 
Thanks all for your thoughts and help.

maddog.mark said:
I always thought it was 18% as well. Not sure about the best card to use, I assumed that they were all 18%. You need to remember to meter off the card in the same light that is falling on your subject.
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markta said:
It's 18%.

TBH Rob, I do the same as you; shoot in RAW under sunny WB and if I don't like the colours, then I use the excellent custom WB pipette in Adobe Lightroom to select an area of the picture that is about 18% grey, check the colour on the square loupe grid, then click and the WB is pretty much spot on corrected :)
Click to expand...

Thats exactly the same as what I do, just in elements. I have struggles at times though when no grey colours are present. Thats what got me thinking about all this really.

Nod said:
For white balance readings it doesn't really matter what %age the card is, as long as the card is a true neutral gray.
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I thought that the definition of neutral grey was the 18% grey. You live and learn!

AliB said:
The inside of lowepro bags are 18% grey, handy eh? :)
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Cool quirk, hats off to lowepro! Trouble is I don't have a lowepro :bang:

Apparently the iphone has a grey card app that makes the screen show 18% grey. Thats pretty cool, but I don't have an iphone either! DOH!!
 
Grey cards are 18% Don't get confused, the primary reason for a grey card is to determine exposure. Shooting a grey card wont set the wb for you unless you use that shot in your camera as a custom wb shot or use that grey card image in processing to set the wb for other shots (with the eye dropper for example).

Pretty good explanation HERE
 
so why does the 5D instruction specifically state that a grey card will give better accuracy when setting custom WB then?
 
i have a cheapo ebay WB cap, doesnt fit all my lenses but i jsut hold it infornt of the lens, set to manual, take a shot and set it

works a charm

but usualy adjust it in CS3 anyway
 
pearce_jj said:
so why does the 5D instruction specifically state that a grey card will give better accuracy when setting custom WB then?
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Because it will. :thinking: But you then have to set that shot up within your camera as the custom wb shot. All subsequent shots then have the wb set from that grey card shot.
 
Apologies from me as well if the info I've given is incorrect...

I've always (due to the genre of subjects I'm into), pointed the camera towards a mid tone like grass to take a reading there before locking exposure, obviously, if I'm shooting into the sky, I find that +1 exposure compensation is usually correct to give a correct all round exposure....

For WB, as stated above, I use Lightroom to determine correct WB if the custom WB looks better..

Well I've learnt something today if 18% isn't the correct midtone for exposure :)
 
Thanks for that link CT, answers a fair few quetions there. One that I do have now though, and its purely from not knowing elements 6 too well that its come about. The article shows you how to save level profiles in photoshop, is this also possible in elements?

I think what I'll do is get a grey card from when I start trying portrait stuff, and stick to PP'ing it in other situations.

Thanks again CT!
 
The 18% grey card that Kodak introduced was purely for reference purposes and really has nothing to do with determining exposure with SLR metering systems.

Where the confusion may have come in, is that if used to take a reflective reading using a hand held exposure meter it is designed to give the same reading as an incident light one

It is useful in setting an accurate white balance
 
CT said:
Grey cards are 18% Don't get confused, the primary reason for a grey card is to determine exposure....
Click to expand...

Chappers said:
The 18% grey card that Kodak introduced was purely for reference purposes and really has nothing to do with determining exposure with SLR metering systems.

Where the confusion may have come in, is that if used to take a reflective reading using a hand held exposure meter it is designed to give the same reading as an incident light one

.....
Click to expand...

:bang: I thought i had it sussed
 
Sorry Rob,I don't use elements, but I'm glad it's helped.

WB is fairly simple really. If we take a shot indoors under tungsten light, we've all see the awful orange cast you get over everything. We see this all the time, but our brains ignore it as we're used to seeing indoor situations as normal. As soon as we're presented with a 2D image taken under that light, the orange cast becomes obvious and leaps out at us though.

If we take a shot of a grey card under orange light, it will have the same orange cast over it as everything else in the room. However, if we now use that shot to set the custom wb shot in the camera, we're effectively telling the camera..." this is 18% grey (an absolute value which the camera 'knows') please ignore the orange cast."

When the camera 'knows' what 18% grey looks like, then all other colours fall into place too, and the orange cast is nuked. :)
 
CT said:
Sorry Rob,I don't use elements, but I'm glad it's helped.

WB is fairly simple really. If we take a shot indoors under tungsten light, we've all see the awful orange cast you get over everything. We see this all the time, but our brains ignore it as we're used to seeing indoor situations as normal. As soon as we're presented with a 2D image taken under that light, the orange cast becomes leaps out at us though.

If we take a shot of a grey card under orange light, it will have the same orange cast over it as everything else in the room. However, if we now use that shot to set the custom wb shot in the camera, we're effectively telling the camera..." this is 18% grey (an absolute value which the camera 'knows') please ignore the orange cast."

When the camera 'knows' what 18% grey looks like, then all other colours fall into place too, and the orange cast is nuked. :)
Click to expand...

Thats pretty much how I understood it. I just want to make sure that I do and find out what people think the best way to set up the WB. The reason being I have just made myself up a "strobist kit" to go into the portrait style, and the last thing i need whilst trying to get to grips with that is dodgy white balance!!
 
Chappers said:
Where the confusion may have come in, is that if used to take a reflective reading using a hand held exposure meter it is designed to give the same reading as an incident light one
Click to expand...
Yes, because that's all the white incident dome does - reduces the light reaching the meter to 18%, so it's the same as metering on an 18% grey card.
 
I often set wb just by using degs Kelvin if your camera will let you. On the lowest setting (usually around 2800K) it's pretty good under tungsten light, but you can tweak the figure as desired. When you set the wb in Kelvin you set an absolute known value for wb. Try it - you'll be surprised.
 
CT said:
I often set wb just by using degs Kelvin if your camera will let you. On the lowest setting (usually around 2800K) it's pretty good under tungsten light, but you can tweak the figure as desired. When you set the wb in Kelvin you set an absolute known value for wb. Try it - you'll be surprised.
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My GX-10 has the ability to set in kelvin so I'll have a play tonight then. I guess then its a case of experience to work out what temp works for what situation.

Cheers CT

*EDIT*

Just found this scale to give people an idea of the Kelvin scale and situations LINK
 
Rob.,

Thanks for the link, and that seems like a nice table.

Question, seeing that the temp. for candlelight is in the region of 1000 ~ 2000K, how do I go about adjusting for this as my camera (D300) only goes down to 2500!
 
Wail said:
Rob.,

Question, seeing that the temp. for candlelight is in the region of 1000 ~ 2000K, how do I go about adjusting for this as my camera (D300) only goes down to 2500!
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I suppose you'd have to hope that your processing package allows you to adjust wb down to that level, although I suspect the lowest kelvin setting wouldn't be far away.

Or shoot B&W. :lol:
 
Seriously, I keep meaning to have a look at an Expodisc for wb. I only hear good things about them.
 
CT said:
Seriously, I keep meaning to have a look at an Expodisc for wb. I only hear good things about them.
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But the only problem with them is that you really have to stand next to the subject as if you were holding a lightmeter to get an incident reading, so they have limitations.

I guess this is why they are highly popular in the studio
 
Interesting thread, I've ben having a play around with this myself.

So far, I've found the following.

Taken 3 shots indoor under normal "lightbulb" light.

1 on Auto white balance, 1 on the tungsten setting and one setting manually using a grey lowepro divider to set the base.

The auto looks its usual dreadful self, the tungsten looks much less yellow but still artificial. The manual one looks like its been taken in natural daylight, almost a little cold looking. I guess in this test the most ideal setting would be somewhere between tungsten setting and the manual grey card method, perhaps this is where knowing your degrees Kelvin comes in?

Interesting though and certainly puts you right off using auto setting indoors.
 
GEH007 said:
Interesting though and certainly puts you right off using auto setting indoors.
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Dead right! Auto wb works fine for daylight and flash which are the same colour temp, but on any of the other settings DSLRs leave a lot to be desired, in fact it's one of the things they get regularly panned for in reviews.
 
markta said:
But the only problem with them is that you really have to stand next to the subject as if you were holding a lightmeter to get an incident reading, so they have limitations.

I guess this is why they are highly popular in the studio
Click to expand...
Makes sense - I've never used one.
 
CT said:
Dead right! Auto wb works fine for daylight and flash which are the same colour temp, but on any of the other settings DSLRs leave a lot to be desired, in fact it's one of the things they get regularly panned for in reviews.
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Exactly.

I seem to recall reading that Canon get a caning for their auto handling in tungsten light, they're not kidding!! Bit of a letdown on a 40D but I dont supppose others are any different, at least you learn to use the camera properly.
 
markta said:
But the only problem with them is that you really have to stand next to the subject as if you were holding a lightmeter to get an incident reading, so they have limitations.
Click to expand...



Errrrr... no you don't !!!

You only have to point them towards the light source, if that's the Sun you don't move at all; if tungsten light, just point it at the light. If the same type/temp of light is pointing at you as is hitting them - you're sorted

Can't think of any circumstances this year where the Expo hasn't been a doddle to use, Weddings, Studio or Landscapes alike

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
Errrrr... no you don't !!!

You only have to point them towards the light source, if that's the Sun you don't move at all; if tungsten light, just point it at the light. If the same type/temp of light is pointing at you as is hitting them - you're sorted

Can't think of any circumstances this year where the Expo hasn't been a doddle to use, Weddings, Studio or Landscapes alike

DD
Click to expand...

have just read the instructions and you're right :):bonk: Just testing :lol:

Blimey, I've had a poor week here, getting a few things wrong :bang: Although I'm not an expert by any means, I should get out more :D:lol:

Sorry again, I think I'll definately lie low for a while and get some fresh air :coat: :)
 
Thanks everyone for you thoughst and help so far. This sure has been an interesting read.

DD, as I am starting out with my strobist gear and makeshift home type studio for portrait/people shots, would you recomment then getting an expodisc for white balance?
 
Chappers said:
The 18% grey card that Kodak introduced was purely for reference purposes and really has nothing to do with determining exposure with SLR metering systems.
Click to expand...


i might have missed the point here ( usually do ) so why do i point my slr at a grey card to determine the exposure ,?
 
Rob.Marsh said:
Thanks everyone for you thoughst and help so far. This sure has been an interesting read.

DD, as I am starting out with my strobist gear and makeshift home type studio for portrait/people shots, would you recomment then getting an expodisc for white balance?
Click to expand...

'recommend' is a strong word

Is an Expo useful - yep - sure is, and it's easy to use too

Can you live without it - yep - sure can, you just need to decide what's 'white' or even 'grey' and batch process on that basis

If you have the £70 ish burning a whole, then why not (just buy a big one so it'll cover all of your smaller lenses too)

DD
 
Better yet, you can get Expodisc-like lens covers from any good Hong Kong supplier for as little as £4!
 
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