Grandma's Shoebox - Creating Heritage

chuckles

Suspended / Banned
Messages
4,470
Name
Barry
Edit My Images
Yes
Creating Heritage by
Barry Cant, on Flickr

Something struck me the other day as I was sorting loads of Photos on my Server based storage. Here Marianne and I have thousands of photos which we're preserving for posterity and yet who will be to see them when we're deceased great-great grandparents?

Go back a hundred years and there are a reasonable set of pictures of our great-grandparents... usually taken by the town's pro. Then go back to our grandparents and you'll probably find a shoebox under the bed full of photos - many of them blurred, camera-shooked and all manner of conditions, but at least there is a record of sorts.

Where does that leave us? Who has prints these days? And usually all the blurred and out of focus shots are 'deleted'.

Simply stated.... Are we leaving enough imaging heritage for our grand-children and their progeny etc, to even know what we looked like?
 
Last edited:
I store all my images electronically, but my wife goes through them periodically and selects some for printing.
Nothing fancy, just so we can add more to the box of photos in the cupboard. :)
 
Not unless we leave hard copies of some kind.

And I think, that's the point. I print quite a bit, but hardly anything of the family :(

I store all my images electronically, but my wife goes through them periodically and selects some for printing.
Nothing fancy, just so we can add more to the box of photos in the cupboard. :)

Yay... well done that lady. Vive The Box
 
The shoebox now contains an Iomega Drive or two.....at least the images won't have yellowed or be torn.

And there are plenty of crappy blurred or over tone-mapped images out there on the net to tell future generations that we were not as good or patient photographers as our Victorian forebears were.
 
But will the drives be readable in 100 years? That's what nobody knows. A yellowed and torn print probably will be.
There will still be nerds with ancient computers. Look at the revival for stuff like Sinclair ZX computers and they are only thirty plus years old, whilst you can still play 78rpm records on some decks which date back 100 years.
 
There will still be nerds with ancient computers. Look at the revival for stuff like Sinclair ZX computers and they are only thirty plus years old, whilst you can still play 78rpm records on some decks which date back 100 years.

Even the spectrum is a fairly specialist bit of kit now. Having to find someone with a functional Iomega drive willing to copy your images to magic crystals is a lot more hassle (and likely expense) than just picking up a print.
 
Print, print and print some more. Photographs are only alive when they are printed..... maybe.:D
 
Death and/or divorce followed by the bonfire are far more likely destinations for your prints from unforgiving relatives/ex spouses cherry picking for valuable bits.
 
But will the drives be readable in 100 years? That's what nobody knows. A yellowed and torn print probably will be.

I had some 'archival' Iomega 100 drives that were unreadable after 4 years :(

There will still be nerds with ancient computers. Look at the revival for stuff like Sinclair ZX computers and they are only thirty plus years old, whilst you can still play 78rpm records on some decks which date back 100 years.

As long as JPG is a readable format true. I recall that "Colusus" the Enigma code busting machine designed by Tommy Flowers and his design was wanted to be rebuilt for the Bletchley Park museum. There were no diagrams and they had to get the remaining engineers to 'remember' and rebuild from scratch.

Print, print and print some more. Photographs are only alive when they are printed..... maybe.:D

Indeed

Death and/or divorce followed by the bonfire are far more likely destinations for your prints from unforgiving relatives/ex spouses cherry picking for valuable bits.

That's what happened to one side of my families photographic records. An uncle 'by marriage, not blood' decided to burn all the family photographs after my aunty died. The children (my cousins) never had a good word to say about him after they found that out. No divorce, just a horrible person.
 
Death and/or divorce followed by the bonfire are far more likely destinations for your prints from unforgiving relatives/ex spouses cherry picking for valuable bits.
And won't they be able to bin the hard drives?
 
Creating Heritage by
Barry Cant, on Flickr

Something struck me the other day as I was sorting loads of Photos on my Server based storage. Here Marianne and I have thousands of photos which we're preserving for posterity and yet who will be to see them when we're deceased great-great grandparents?

Go back a hundred years and there are a reasonable set of pictures of our great-grandparents... usually taken by the town's pro. Then go back to our grandparents and you'll probably find a shoebox under the bed full of photos - many of them blurred, camera-shooked and all manner of conditions, but at least there is a record of sorts.

Where does that leave us? Who has prints these days? And usually all the blurred and out of focus shots are 'deleted'.

Simply stated.... Are we leaving enough imaging heritage for our grand-children and their progeny etc, to even know what we looked like?


I've still got every file I intentionally stored since the 80s. All transferred from media to media as formats become obsolete. There will always be a means to do this. Only a few months back I found some od Kodal Photo CDs... now defunct. I found some free software to convert them to TIFFs in around 10 minutes.

I have .IFF files from my old Amiga days, Music files from 20 years ago, all my photographic work since I went digital.

The fact is, I've lost more negatives than I've lost digital files. I have a robust 2 stage, fully redundant back up system. I've only ever unintentionally lost work, way back when like most people, I didn't have back up. It was a commercial job, and it cost me money and rep... I learned fast.

After a system search (including all servers and computers on the network) here's the findings.

Oldest music file = 1993
Oldest graphics file = 1987
Oldest raw file = 2002
Oldest Word file = 1986

These are file creation dates, so some of the media that's been digitised is even older than that. I've got scans from negative taken in the 70s that have outlived the negatives themselves. I've got digitised artwork from originals that have been lost or damaged. The oldest actual artefact created by me on this computer is a drawing I made as a child, long since lost, but survives on my home network. It's the cartoon I have as an avatar.... around 1982ish.

The oldest file on my system is nearly 30 years old. There's no reason to suspect it will not be here in another 30 years. People are becoming more and more digitally aware, and when I die, I can be pretty certain those I leave behind will be searching through my machine for photos, music and personal belongings. Whether THEY will take care of those files remains to be seen, but there's no real reason to suspect that we will lose images from our past because they're no longer on a piece of paper, or a negative.

Printing is not the answer, as most people's home ink jets are not archival stable any way, and will fade horribly in 20 years time. Only silver based prints have proven to stand the test of time (before the pedants start, yes, I'm aware there are other archival stable photographic methods - but they're not mainstream)

Archiving to optical media is a poor option too, as they can become problematic after a few years. The answer is to store them on your live, up and running system, and have decent, redundant back up. You'll know if you have a hard drive failure, and you'll do something about it. A CD in a drawer somewhere.... well, you've no idea if it works or not until you get it out years later - to late then though, as by that time, it will be the only copy because you THOUGHT you had backed it up. Back up isn't back up if it's only in one place.

There are enough people who know what they are doing to carry the digital legacy forward... don't worry. It's safer than a shoe box too.
 
Last edited:
There will still be nerds with ancient computers.

Looks like you're right. :D

I've still got every file I intentionally stored since the 80s. All transferred from media to media as formats become obsolete. There will always be a means to do this. Only a few months back I found some od Kodal Photo CDs... now defunct. I found some free software to convert them to TIFFs in around 10 minutes.

I have .IFF files from my old Amiga days, Music files from 20 years ago, all my photographic work since I went digital.

The fact is, I've lost more negatives than I've lost digital files. I have a robust 2 stage, fully redundant back up system. I've only ever unintentionally lost work, way back when like most people, I didn't have back up. It was a commercial job, and it cost me money and rep... I learned fast.

After a system search (including all servers and computers on the network) here's the findings.

Oldest music file = 1993
Oldest graphics file = 1987
Oldest raw file = 2002
Oldest Word file = 1986

These are file creation dates, so some of the media that's been digitised is even older than that. I've got scans from negative taken in the 70s that have outlived the negatives themselves. I've got digitised artwork from originals that have been lost or damaged. The oldest actual artefact created by me on this computer is a drawing I made as a child, long since lost, but survives on my home network. It's the cartoon I have as an avatar.... around 1982ish.

The oldest file on my system is nearly 30 years old. There's no reason to suspect it will not be here in another 30 years. People are becoming more and more digitally aware, and when I die, I can be pretty certain those I leave behind will be searching through my machine for photos, music and personal belongings. Whether THEY will take care of those files remains to be seen, but there's no real reason to suspect that we will lose images from our past because they're no longer on a piece of paper, or a negative.

Printing is not the answer, as most people's home ink jets are not archival stable any way, and will fade horribly in 20 years time. Only silver based prints have proven to stand the test of time.

Archiving to optical media is a poor option too, as they can become problematic after a few years. The answer is to store them on your live, up and running system, and have decent, redundant back up. You'll know if you have a hard drive failure, and you'll do something about it. A CD in a drawer somewhere.... well, you've no idea if it works or not until you get it out years later - to late then though, as by that time, it will be the only copy because you THOUGHT you had backed it up. Back up isn't back up if it's only in one place.

There are enough people who know what they are doing to carry the digital legacy forward... don't worry. It's safer than a shoe box too.
 
There will still be nerds with ancient computers.

I have a collection of old Macs in the loft (including an original Mac 128K, a IIfx and some early PowerPC models) partly there in case I need to run an old version of Aldus Freehand or some such software to read an obsolete file format.
 
Last edited:
I have a collection of old Macs in the loft (including an original Mac 128K, a IIfx and some early PowerPC models) partly there in case I need to run an old version of Aldus Freehand or some such software to read an obsolete file format.

Still got one of these :)

macintosh_case.jpg
 
That's ok for us... we're all (most anyway) on this site because we're photographers and have embraced the modern way.

What a about Joe/Jane public? The discarded mobile phones with their archives? I think generally, we may place ourselves in the 25% of those who knows what to do. (y)

A friend of mine showed me her camera after talking about a holiday 3 years ago - it contained all her holiday snaps on the memory card and it also her current photos! These are the people I'm talking about. :thinking:
 
A friend of mine showed me her camera after talking about a holiday 3 years ago - it contained all her holiday snaps on the memory card and it also her current photos! These are the people I'm talking about. :thinking:
I know people like that :LOL: and my reaction is the same as yours. :thinking:
 
What a about Joe/Jane public? The discarded mobile phones with their archives? I think generally, we may place ourselves in the 25% of those who knows what to do. (y)

That's still just under 2 billion people.. don't worry.
 
That's ok for us... we're all (most anyway) on this site because we're photographers and have embraced the modern way.

What a about Joe/Jane public? The discarded mobile phones with their archives? I think generally, we may place ourselves in the 25% of those who knows what to do. (y)

A friend of mine showed me her camera after talking about a holiday 3 years ago - it contained all her holiday snaps on the memory card and it also her current photos! These are the people I'm talking about. :thinking:

Are these really going to be significant records for the future?

Maybe if the current liking for Holgas etc, they will be, but in future Getty et al will hold the significant and so called important photographic records and Flickr the rest?
 
I don't think this thread refers to globally important photographs, they'll never be in much danger, but to individual family histories.

And what are the chances of a future Vivian Maier's hard drive being discovered in an auction?
 
I don't think this thread refers to globally important photographs, they'll never be in much danger, but to individual family histories.

And what are the chances of a future Vivian Maier's hard drive being discovered in an auction?


Quite high I reckon. If I found an old computer the first thing I'd do is see what's on the hard drive. In fact, that IS what I do when I fond an old computer.
 
I don't think this thread refers to globally important photographs, they'll never be in much danger, but to individual family histories.

And what are the chances of a future Vivian Maier's hard drive being discovered in an auction?

I was reminded of how important under the bed, shoebox photos really are when there were numerous programmes last year detailing the records of World War I. It's all passing from living memory and all we have is the written word, paintings, sketches and photos.

Shoebox photos of the 40's and 50's may not be of artistic merit but perhaps the only record of parents, children and relatives - even the way we lived - many of them under/over exposed out of focus images but nonetheless important.
 
Last edited:
I was reminded of how important under the bed, shoebox photos really are when there were numerous programmes last year detailing the records of World War I. It's all passing from living memory and all we have is the written word, paintings, sketches and photos.

Shoebox photos of the 40's and 50's may not be of artistic merit but perhaps the only record of parents, children and relatives - even the way we lived - many of them under/over exposed out of focus images but nonetheless important.



We're all getting all wound up about "shoeboxes". The only reason we only have shoeboxes of photos from the 40s is because that's all there was! That's how people kept photos... either that or in albums.

If there were digital files in the 40s, I'm fairly sure we'd have digital files from the 40s today.

Talk of obsolescence and redundant formats is nonsense. I've migrated from format to format loads of times. Many people do. How many millio9ns of files were transferred from floppy to zip, then from zip to CD, then CD to DVD.. also, at any stage, those files would also be on the person's hard drives too.

They will survive. This is just knee jerk scaremongering.

I know for a fact that the Lancashire Archives are digitising everything, and are also now collecting and collating digital content from users, the public, and also orphan images from the web.
 
Last edited:
Birmingham library are digitising most of their images, but that's to do with ease of reference, retrieval and distribution.

Personally I produce albums or book of events, like a special holiday, as an additional viewing platform. Something nice about retrieving a book from the shelf.
 
---Clip---

They will survive. This is just knee jerk scaremongering.

---clip ---

'Shoebox' was just a generic collective for the 'family archive'.

You're getting too wrapped up in the technicalities and the world of professional media - not Aunty Nell's photos of their family venture in Venice .

And I've never jerked a knee or scared a monger in me life!
 
It seems to me that the big difference between then and now is neatly encapsulated in "shoebox". In those days, a film might remain in the camera from one annual holiday to the next (or so reports at the time suggested) meaning perhaps 36 photos per year. And that's assuming 35mm. I recall a cousin used a folding camera, and the number of exposures was less. It was possible to store that whole archive in a shoebox (or two). I have the combined achives from 4 homes now (parents and close aunts) and they take up less space than my negative files for 35mm! Being of a manageable size makes it more likely that they will be looked at.

Faced with several thousand photos, how many will have the will to look through them (given that there will be hundreds of near duplicates) to pick out the signifcant and interesting ones from the records of all the meals taken in a restaurant or the muliple sunsets? The sheer quantity seems to me to be the biggest stumbling block to the survival; and this would apply to paper as well as electonic versions. Prints are easily and quickly scanned (I mean by eye, not Epson :D) and so far more likely to be examined than a hard disk that requires a computer. And if not examined for enough years, it may indeed require a trip to a museum to read them.

Old photos may end up in junk shops/antique dealers (particularly if in a nice album. A second hand hard drive will probably be wiped and reused in preference to bought, viewed and stored for posterity.
 
I'm sure relatives will rifle through your heard drives once you're gone... if only to see what kind of porn you were into :)
 
Talk of obsolescence and redundant formats is nonsense. I've migrated from format to format loads of times. Many people do. How many millio9ns of files were transferred from floppy to zip, then from zip to CD, then CD to DVD.. also, at any stage, those files would also be on the person's hard drives too.

They will survive. This is just knee jerk scaremongering.

With due respect, David, you are computer savvy and no doubt have an archive of work. My guess is that the majority of people don't worry about such things. They imagine that once something is stored on a disc or drive that's all they have to do with it forever. After all, once a photo is in a shoebox it's there until the box is binned.

My negatives are filed neatly, my slides are numbered and could be put back in order, but my digital stuff is all over the place. I never migrate stuff because I'm bone idle. I'm sure casual family photographers are even more lackadaisical!

For those who missed it - here are some photos I found in a shoebox.
 
We have a large archive of images from the late 70s to the early 2000s, plus family photos that my mother sorted and passed on. There's a bit of a gap, because we effectively stopped film photography for a few years, and the little digital we had was very poor. More recently we've been creating albums and printing/sorting images again. Mut I'm sure many ordinary people will have effectively no family photograpic history, especially with the modern inclination to bin everything that's a bit low-tech but not 'old'.
 
With due respect, David, you are computer savvy and no doubt have an archive of work. My guess is that the majority of people don't worry about such things. They imagine that once something is stored on a disc or drive that's all they have to do with it forever. After all, once a photo is in a shoebox it's there until the box is binned.

My negatives are filed neatly, my slides are numbered and could be put back in order, but my digital stuff is all over the place. I never migrate stuff because I'm bone idle. I'm sure casual family photographers are even more lackadaisical!

For those who missed it - here are some photos I found in a shoebox.

I wish we could all come back to this in a hundred years! By the way - your link in the linked URL didn't work for me :(

We have a large archive of images from the late 70s to the early 2000s, plus family photos that my mother sorted and passed on. There's a bit of a gap, because we effectively stopped film photography for a few years, and the little digital we had was very poor. More recently we've been creating albums and printing/sorting images again. Mut I'm sure many ordinary people will have effectively no family photograpic history, especially with the modern inclination to bin everything that's a bit low-tech but not 'old'.

Which is kind of the point I was trying to make.
 
Then go back to our grandparents and you'll probably find a shoebox under the bed full of photos - many of them blurred, camera-shooked and all manner of conditions, but at least there is a record of sorts.

Exactly the kind of photographs which get routinely deleted now. When you look at old photographs, it isn't the composition or the sharpness or the tonality which gets your attention, it's the content.

Something which was fairly mundane at the time takes on an extra level of interest with the passage of time. Things like fashions, old cars, shop fronts, etc. become interesting 50 - 100 years later.

We are in danger of deleting everything which might actually be of interest to people many years from now (well, perhaps not everything).

Also, I think most people have old family photographs from many years ago but probably could not find their digital files from ten years ago (I'm think more about Mr Joe Average here rather than a forum of photo enthusiasts).



Steve.
 
Last edited:
Exactly the kind of photographs which get routinely deleted now. When you look at old photographs, it isn't the composition or the sharpness or the tonality which gets your attention, it's the content.

We mentioned a while back to the daughter of friends that we had a picture of her when she was about 2 years old, and were eventually able to find, scan and send it to her. She was really pleased despite it being blurry and a bit muted - I had taken it with a Cosmic Symbol (Russian rangefinder type) camera when I was 17. Her parents weren't really photographically inclined, and she had very few images from that era, but loved it despite the technical failure.
 
How long are the current prints going to last?

My solution is to put stuff everywhere, DVDs, pen drives, hard drives and more recently in flickr and googledrive. They may be big evil mega-corporations run by Dr Evil but OTOH they know more than I do about image formats and back-ups. I guess if jpeg ever becomes obsolete they will offer me a tool to convert my stuff. If they go bust I still have the DVDs, pen drives, hard drives so I am no worse off. Assuming they don't go bust passing the photos on to my kids is a mouse click away.
 
How long are the current prints going to last?

My solution is to put stuff everywhere, DVDs, pen drives, hard drives and more recently in flickr and googledrive. They may be big evil mega-corporations run by Dr Evil but OTOH they know more than I do about image formats and back-ups. I guess if jpeg ever becomes obsolete they will offer me a tool to convert my stuff. If they go bust I still have the DVDs, pen drives, hard drives so I am no worse off. Assuming they don't go bust passing the photos on to my kids is a mouse click away.

And what about the out of focus, blurred ones we now delete? Years ago you paid Boots (other processors were an option) a small fortune yet you still hung on to the finished product.
 
How long are the current prints going to last?

My solution is to put stuff everywhere, DVDs, pen drives, hard drives and more recently in flickr and googledrive.

Prints are probably going to last longer than any digital copies. It doesn't matter how good you are at backing things up and making sure you have multiple copies. Once you are gone, this will stop.


Steve.
 
It is 800 years today since the Magna Carta was produced. I understand a 1st digital copy that was created is semi obsolete unless a new version has been created?

The original Hard Version is still in good condition!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top