Grand National - Bet or Boycott?

[rssmrry]

avoiding the answer again.

Anyway, here's the kennel club breed standard for the pug

I don't see any reference to compulsory sores or breathing problems?

If you don't watch it you can't say he's avoiding the answer. Not listening to someone's point doesn't make you right.

 

[neil_g]

But I doubt the majority of the people in the uk (a vast number of which have pets and spend a small fortune keeping healthy and happy) would be happy with what's going on behind the scenes in horse racing.

that seems to be implying that horses are routinely mistreated? a racing trainer facility/stables is like a 5 star luxury hotel for horses. its not in anyone intrest to mistreat a racehorse, a horse that is injured cant race.

The latest I see is he's posted a video that at least one person doesn't want to bother watching. Like I said, it's not just this thread; I've seen this happen a number of times now and it's quite tiresome. Honestly, I think the reason he's taking flack is because people don't like his views, not because he's not quoting sources. This feeling is further reinforced by the suggestion a page or so back that he's somehow not entitled to his views if he eats meat, which is frankly a bit absurd. It's this constant stream of ad hominem tactics which really undermines any constructive discussion.

its an hour long for petes sake, there has to be other sources of the information.. if youre going to pose a "fact" then at least provide the information that can be easily viewed.

 

[dod]

This feeling is further reinforced by the suggestion a page or so back that he's somehow not entitled to his views if he eats meat, which is frankly a bit absurd. It's this constant stream of ad hominem tactics which really undermines any constructive discussion.

I've got a bit of sympathy for that view. I 'd guess it was expressed because, rightly or wrongly, it will be assumed that a vegetarian will be more pro animal and less likely to be objective. :shrug:

I don't necessarily hold that view and if you feel someone is being unfairly treated use the "report post" button.

 

[onona]

Have I entered some sort of time warp here?

You ask me what I'm talking about and then ask me to show where I said "anyone with a view different to mine is being stupid, or is misinformed, or is wrong" ???

If I'm misunderstanding your question then I'm sorry, but I'm just a pore ole country boy.

You really do appear to have misunderstood the point I was making :/

My point being that Simon is being treated as if he's some kind of idiot just because he holds a minority view. People are basically saying he's wrong and that he's clueless, which is silly when you consider that, at the heart of this discussion, it really comes down to personal views, not facts. If Simon doesn't agree with the nature of the industry, why is he being treated like a fool, instead of people just accepting that his view is different to theirs?

 

[simon44]

avoiding the answer again.

Anyway, here's the kennel club breed standard for the pug

I don't see any reference to compulsory sores or breathing problems?

Dod,

All i ask is to have a look. It's an interesting watch. You said i would be sued by the kennel club, because of what i said. You are wrong by telling me that.

If you don't, well that tells me that you won't believe an apple is an apple or a cup is a cup. Which is impossible to debate with.

 

[rssmrry]

that seems to be implying that horses are routinely mistreated? a racing trainer facility/stables is like a 5 star luxury hotel for horses. its not in anyone intrest to mistreat a racehorse, a horse that is injured cant race.

It's what happens when they can't race that people might have problems with. Urgh I've had enough. Like arguing with a brick wall.

And to have dedicated as much time as you lot have to this thread shows that you're a passionate bunch (I would imagine) when it comes to this issue. Surely since this issue is related, it'd be worth watching, it's on my to watch list especially as my Cavalier had a whole load of problems (KC registered) including a heart murmur, severe allergies and spinal problems which forced me to have him put to sleep last year aged just 6. It looks very interesting to say the least.

Anyway I've wasted too much time on this so I'm going to bow out but I think the way the occupants of this thread have turned on Simon and others who share his views is outrageous. Yeah yeah I said it before but I couldn't care less. Have fun

 

[neil_g]

It's what happens when they can't race that people might have problems with. Urgh I've had enough. Like arguing with a brick wall.

i asked earlier whats the answer to the problem then? you need to breed horses to race/compete, not all horses will be suitable, not all horses can be rehomed due to the current economic climate and horse wellfare charities being full.

 

[joescrivens]

Anyway I've wasted too much time on this so I'm going to bow out

I think this is the second time you have said this, but you keep coming back.

 

[London Headshots]

Definitely against the Grand National, and pretty much anything that uses animals in any fashion at all. From sport to agriculture, the entire concept of animal slavery pretty much disgusts me.

Except guide dogs.

 

[joescrivens]

pretty much anything that uses animals in any fashion at all.

how about leather? leather shoes, couches etc anything like that?

 

[dod]

If you don't watch it you can't say he's avoiding the answer. Not listening to someone's point doesn't make you right.

I will watch it, just not right now

Remember, the claim was

The kennel club through their legislation, demand that they have breathing problems and are afflicted with sores due to the folds in the skin. A breeder lobbied them to oust this and was ostracised from the kennel club.

I want to see something from the Kennel club backing that up. I don't really want to have to waste an hour of my life watching something that I suspect will turn out to be anecdotal at best. Their standard actually specifically states:

Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work.

and

Nose black, fairly large with well open nostrils.

hardly demanding breathing problems.

 

[mxfun]

This thread's turned into a bit of a joke.... Eh?

 

[cambsno]

Why can't people just agree to disagree? The world would be a pretty boring place if we all held the same views.

Because the people disagreeing with things often want them banned (fox hunting, horse racing etc...)

I find that anyone seriously complaining against the GN (and who said fox hunting was cruel) is a total hypocrite if they do not complain against things like fishing, keeping pets at home (i dont mean dogs or cats but things like hamsters or snakes confined to cages) or any other exploitation of animals.

In fact, I would argue that if you eat meat, or wear leather products, or even drink wine (fish scales are used in the process) then you are a hypocrite if you moan about humans exploiting animals.

 

[dod]

Dod,

All i ask is to have a look. It's an interesting watch. You said i would be sued by the kennel club, because of what i said. You are wrong by telling me that.

If you don't, well that tells me that you won't believe an apple is an apple or a cup is a cup. Which is impossible to debate with.

I actually said that if you can't prove what you said you run that risk.

 

[treeman]

This thread is very long, would someone care to give me a quick summary please

 

[neil_g]

This thread is very long, would someone care to give me a quick summary please

some people say the GN is evil, some spout rubbish, horsey lot come in with informed arguments, hell breaks loose.

that okay?

 

[joescrivens]

This thread is very long, would someone care to give me a quick summary please

here goes.

A few people here have the opinion that the GN is cruel yet are hypocrites because they are fine with other cruelties to animals.

Thats the basic jist of it

 

[simon44]

I actually said that if you can't prove what you said you run that risk.

Point taken, I look forward to your opinions on the video.

You can hear a pug before you see it. The breathing is very laboured.

 

[treeman]

some people say the GN is evil, some spout rubbish, horsey lot come in with informed arguments, hell breaks loose.

that okay?

here goes.

A few people here have the opinion that the GN is cruel yet are hypocrites because they are fine with other cruelties to animals.

Thats the basic jist of it

Thank you, I suspected that was the way it was going.

 

[Spuff]

how about leather? leather shoes, couches etc anything like that?

Joe, you keep missing the point on this one. As has already been posted, more eloquently than I can put it, being a meat eater or user of animal products does not preclude someone from having a view which is anti Grand National specifically, or anti the horse racing industry in general.

An equally fallacious point (although not made by you) is the one that horses have a choice when it comes to making a jump i.e. the concept that a horse has developed the mental capacity to assess the risk and potential consequences of its actions!

 

[joescrivens]

Joe, you keep missing the point on this one. As has already been posted, more eloquently than I can put it, being a meat eater or user of animal products does not preclude someone from having a view which is anti Grand National specifically, or anti the horse racing industry in general.

An equally fallacious point (although not made by you) is the one that horses have a choice when it comes to making a jump i.e. the concept that a horse has developed the mental capacity to assess the risk and potential consequences of its actions!

yet nobody can explain to me what the difference is.

How can you be happy that an animal is bred just for you to eat it. Yet not happy that an animal is used for food after it has been previously used for something else like racing. What's the difference?

 

[neil_g]

An equally fallacious point (although not made by you) is the one that horses have a choice when it comes to making a jump i.e. the concept that a horse has developed the mental capacity to assess the risk and potential consequences of its actions!

have you never seen a rider go out the front or side door when a horse refuses to jump?

 

[London Headshots]

how about leather? leather shoes, couches etc anything like that?

I'm against leather in theory. The reality is that we currently do not have a material that is as versatile as leather, or one as easily acquired or manufactured.

However, as more and more synthetic substances are produced that can compete with leather, I would like to see the use of it as a material phased out.

But really, all I did there was just humour you, because anyone who isn't bent on arguing could quite easily see that I was talking about the domestication of living creatures, or the use of them for purposes of sport and entertainment.

 

[London Headshots]

Oh, forgot to add, I'm also against the mass production of livestock, and the eating of meat in general. However, I'm aware that we live in an imperfect world, and until technology is capable of replacing meat in terms of nutrients, texture, taste, and sensation, I'll continue to be a carnivore.

 

[joescrivens]

I'm against leather in theory. The reality is that we currently do not have a material that is as versatile as leather, or one as easily acquired or manufactured.

However, as more and more synthetic substances are produced that can compete with leather, I would like to see the use of it as a material phased out.

But really, all I did there was just humour you, because anyone who isn't bent on arguing could quite easily see that I was talking about the domestication of living creatures, or the use of them for purposes of sport and entertainment.

Oh, forgot to add, I'm also against the mass production of livestock, and the eating of meat in general. However, I'm aware that we live in an imperfect world, and until technology is capable of replacing meat in terms of nutrients, texture, taste, and sensation, I'll continue to be a carnivore.

so you are against these things but you choose to still have them in your life? that's kind of hypocritical dont you think?

 

[treeman]

Oh, forgot to add, I'm also against the mass production of livestock, and the eating of meat in general. However, I'm aware that we live in an imperfect world, and until technology is capable of replacing meat in terms of nutrients, texture, taste, and sensation, I'll continue to be a carnivore.

Dude, that has to be the lamest argument ever for not wanting to give up meat but supposedly against the mass production of livestock.

Be honest with yourself, you care less about animal cruelty than you do your desire for meat.

Or are you just trolling?

 

[London Headshots]

so you are against these things but you choose to still have them in your life? that's kind of hypocritical dont you think?

Yeah, I think it's really hypocritical, what's your point? I'm a human being, and I'm completely imperfect, concerned primarily with my own comfort above all else, but never without the niggling sensation that everything I'm doing is to the detriment of the planet and the future generations that will walk it.

I think I'm pretty much normal. However, I must say it's a pleasure to meet you, Joe, the first person who could ever pick holes in someone with a clear conscience.

 

[London Headshots]

Dude, that has to be the lamest argument ever for not wanting to give up meat but supposedly against the mass production of livestock.

Be honest with yourself, you care less about animal cruelty than you do your desire for meat.

Or are you just trolling?

Why is it a lame argument? I do care less about animal cruelty than I do for my own desire for meat. I said that in my second post. Please don't make me repeat myself, though, because I feel I was succinct enough originally.

 

[simon44]

I think I'm pretty much normal. However, I must say it's a pleasure to meet you, Joe, the first person who could ever pick holes in someone with a clear conscience.

We have a reincarnation of Oscar Wilde here.

 

[treeman]

Why is it a lame argument? I do care less about animal cruelty than I do for my own desire for meat. I said that in my second post. Please don't make me repeat myself, though, because I feel I was succinct enough originally.

No, you didn't say that in your second post, you said "we live in an imperfect world". If you had said "I'm imperfect and care less for animals than........" Then your argument would have not been lame.

I happen to agree with you, but I blame it squarely on my own shoulders and no one else's. It's my own choice to eat meat, though I regulate how often I eat it and the quality, in terms of welfare, of the meat I eat.

 

[Spuff]

have you never seen a rider go out the front or side door when a horse refuses to jump?

Of course but surely you're not telling me a horse refuses a fence because it understands what the consequences and risks of jumping it will be?

It's purely an instinctive response and nothing to do with the cognitive processes required to make a choice.

 

[cambsno]

Joe, you keep missing the point on this one. As has already been posted, more eloquently than I can put it, being a meat eater or user of animal products does not preclude someone from having a view which is anti Grand National specifically, or anti the horse racing industry in general.

An equally fallacious point (although not made by you) is the one that horses have a choice when it comes to making a jump i.e. the concept that a horse has developed the mental capacity to assess the risk and potential consequences of its actions!

People who are anti the GN are using an animal cruelty/explotation point of view, so it seems strange you are happy for other animals to be kept cruelly or exploited.

Horses do have a choice. As has been mentioned, they do jump in the wild, they do refuse jumps, and I am sure if you were to ride one off the cliffs of Dover it would stop!!! All animals have the capacity to assess risk, otherwise they would never live more than a few weeks!

 

[cambsno]

Oh, forgot to add, I'm also against the mass production of livestock, and the eating of meat in general. However, I'm aware that we live in an imperfect world, and until technology is capable of replacing meat in terms of nutrients, texture, taste, and sensation, I'll continue to be a carnivore.

Quorn?

 

[London Headshots]

No, you didn't say that in your second post, you said "we live in an imperfect world". If you had said "I'm imperfect and care less for animals than........" Then your argument would have not been lame.

I happen to agree with you, but I blame it squarely on my own shoulders and no one else's. It's my own choice to eat meat, though I regulate how often I eat it and the quality, in terms of welfare, of the meat I eat.

I said the collective "we" in reference to the world in which we live, but the singular "I" in reference to the choices I make within it. I think that's grammatically correct, and since you were able to correct me, I would argue that your objection is purely semantic, since the denotatum remains obviously intact.

 

[London Headshots]

Quorn?

I eat quite a few Quorn products, already.

 

[Spuff]

People who are anti the GN are using an animal cruelty/explotation point of view, so it seems strange you are happy for other animals to be kept cruelly or exploited.

Horses do have a choice. As has been mentioned, they do jump in the wild, they do refuse jumps, and I am sure if you were to ride one off the cliffs of Dover it would stop!!! All animals have the capacity to assess risk, otherwise they would never live more than a few weeks!

First, to make my position clear (for what it's worth) I am not anti GN. My original post simply posed the question bet or boycott, knowing that there were horsey types here that might be able to explain the acceptability of a race where risks to their valuable and well looked after assets seemed to be considerably higher than other races.

And by and large they have explained that to me with some useful facts and links.

The thread has obviously developed (as they do) and the point was made, validly I think, that those who had opposing views to the GN or horseracing in general were being ridiculed or bullied because they had no connection to racing or horses and therefore couldn't have a valid opinion.

Then Joe "I'd argue with a lampost" Scrivens came in and everything went titsup

Secondly, it's pretty basic behavioural science - a horse is not making a risk assessment and a choice. If it refuses or bolts or throws its rider it is simply responding to stimuli at a basic level - fight or flight response.

 

[joescrivens]

Then Joe "I'd argue with a lampost" Scrivens came in and everything went titsup

trust me, it was already down the pan before i arrived with some of the ludicrous statements by a few posters who shall remain nameless

also, lamposts I wouldn't argue with - hump, yes, but argue, nah!

 

[DemiLion]

The thread has obviously developed (as they do) and the point was made, validly I think, that those who had opposing views to the GN or horseracing in general were being ridiculed or bullied because they had no connection to racing or horses and therefore couldn't have a valid opinion.

I don't think that anyone has been ridiculed for not having a connection to racing, or that it's not possible to have an opinion without one.

What has been said though, is that arguing from a position of ignorance leaves your opinion open to being easily dismissed.


It's very easy to have a gut reaction about a subject depending on how it is presented in the first place.

For example you erroneously (probably not entirely your fault) claimed that the mortality rate in 'Chasing was 4/1000 whereas in the National was 5 times greater.

Those figures weren't accurate, but stating that the rate was 5 times greater is a very good way of emoting a figure, rather then dealing with the straight forward percentages of 0.006 v 0.013. Equally, using percentages could be seen as lessening the impact or demeaning the number of deaths.

It's a technique that's used all the time, hence Disreali's rather well worn quote!

I've got no problem with people having opposing views, but at least be able to tell me why you are against something, rather than just having an instinct based rant about it. For all anyone knows their initial reaction could be based on complete fallacies!

 

[ZoneV]

I have no real opinion on the GN but I notice that over the last few years they often miss a fence out the second time around, presumably to give the vets more time to deal with injured/brown-bread horses under the tent/behind the screens.

I don't remember seeing this happen previously - presumably they must've dragged the dead 'uns off sharpish with a tractor or something before the rest came around again. Does anyone more knowledgable know for sure?

 

[treeman]

I've got no problem with people having opposing views, but at least be able to tell me why you are against something, rather than just having an instinct based rant about it. For all anyone knows their initial reaction could be based on complete fallacies!

And that is why I'm so glad we don't have a true democracy in this country!