Grand National - Bet or Boycott?

For thousands of British thoroughbreds that are too old, too slow or not good enough jumpers, the end is brutal: a bullet through the temple or a metal bolt into the side of the brain. Then their carcasses are loaded on to freezer lorries and driven to France, where their flesh is sold as gourmet meat.
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This weekend an Observer investigation shines a light on this grisly underbelly of the sport. We reveal the two British slaughterhouses whose 'knackermen' kill more than 5,000 horses a year, many of which were bred to entertain punters and racegoers. We also reveal that a director of one of the horse abattoirs claims to have killed horses for leading names in the industry and that another is a judge at the Horse of the Year Show.
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A study by the Equine Fertility Unit in Newmarket attempted to track 1,022 thoroughbred foals born in 1999. It discovered that only 347 were ever entered for a race in the UK and fewer than 200 remained in training as four-year-olds. More than 100 had been destroyed, died or were untraceable.
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Valerie Turner, the owner of Cheshire Equine Services, told us its main time for killing horses was Friday, between 7am and 2pm, when it slaughtered between 50 and 100 animals.
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Documents in the office reveal that one of the horses being slaughtered on our visit is Louis Laval, a nine-year-old chestnut racehorse originally bred in Ireland and once owned by Padge Berry, an Irish trainer who bought the horse in 2001 for nearly £17,000. There are no details of the new owner, who, five years on, has brought Louis Laval to be turned into horsemeat.
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Turner confirmed she dealt directly with raceyards and stud farms but declined to name any. She also rebutted the earlier statement that they kill 2,000 to 3,000 racehorses a year, claiming the figure was closer to 700.
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Of 1,022 thoroughbred foals tracked from birth, only 347 were ever entered for a race.
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linky
 
joescrivens said:
well, I guess if someone somewhere wrote it down on the internet it must of course be what happens
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And I'm being accused of trolling.

Would it be more believable if I cited the sun or the daily express?
 
onona said:
Frankly I find all animal racing abhorrent. Horse racing events like the Grand National may seem all glitzy and glamourous on the surface but the fact is that the racing industry is an exploitative business motivated purely by greed, and frankly I think it's shameful that we, as a supposedly civilised species, still allow it.

And to those who say that horse racing is fine because "horses enjoy running" - if they enjoy running so much, why is it necessary to whip them?
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I wouldn't say it's the sole factor, but money is certainly a very important motivator for the sport, hence the very existence of Thoroughbreds. However almost everybody involved has the horses welfare at the top of their agenda - those that don't are very quickly found out.

If you are going to start banning things because they are based on greed, then the majority of anything that could be classed as a leisure industry would go down the pan, as would any form of non essential retail.

Be very careful what you wish for!
 
cambsno said:
Jockeys are restricted to a limited use of the whip, and I believe its more to correct the direction rather than to go faster.

Horse racing does provide employment and also enjoyment to a great many people. I personally dont see the point of show jumping and never watch it but I appreciate that many people do like it and enjoy it. Same with dog shows, I dislike dogs but have no reason to see it banned, or that fact that people like to keep snakes/hamsters in cages or tanks!

If cruelty is the argument against the Grand National, then there are a great many other interests involving animals that are far, far worse, and anyone genuinely concerned about animal cruelty should be focused on them.
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Just because other cruel sports exist doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the ones which are somehow "less" cruel - they're all equally bad for the simple fact that animals are being treated casually as commodities for entertainment and financial gain, with little regard for the fact that they're sentient beings capable of suffering. Animal circuses have rightly fallen out of favour for the same reasons, and I believe it's only a matter of time before other exploitative industries like racing follow suit.
 
simon44 said:
linky
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thats a 6 year old article..

id say more horses (dailys) are being abandoned these days due to the economic climate unfortunately, racehorses id imagine are a small drop in that ocean.

as for some of the sensational facts in that article, it doesnt really cost any more to run a retired race horse than a normal horse. it just requires a more experienced rider.
 
simon44 said:
mate it chucked its rider off before the race even started. They grabbed hold of it put the rider back on and started the race. It then unseated the rider again and then broke its leg.

Its a catalogue of errors. All stemming from greed and money over the well being of the horse.
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Firstly I'm not your 'mate', nor am I likely to be.

Synchronised shied off a reflection when heading down to the start and McCoy went out the side door. It didn't bolt, just carried on cantering round the rails and was caught by a very experienced press photographer. The animal was then checked before being allowed to go under orders, to make sure that it was fit to run.

Crossing Beechers the horse overstretched and fell. Despite being (according to you) utterly traumatised, the animal then got up and jumped another five fences, without a jockey, chasing the field.

Whereabouts was the welfare failure in that lot?

I get that you don't like racing, but please don't make stuff up to justify your argument. Base your views on facts- after all there are enough that you could use to work in your favour!
 
I started this thread because I knew there were some horse owners/lovers on here and I was genuinely interested in their response. And the link Fabs provided made for very interesting reading.

I haven't got a problem with horse racing in general but I do find the Grand National a bit of an anachronism. For an industry that provides the best in welfare, training and medical facilities for these valuable horses I fail to understand why owners are willing to take such risks by placing their valuable assets in a race such as the National. It can only be money or fame, can't it?

And contrary to Demi Lion's figures it is a substantial risk according to the British Horseracing Authorities statistics. Over an 11 year period comparing the Grand National with Steeplechasing in general:

Horse Falls are 28% GN to 5.7% SC
Rider Falls are 46% GN to 10% SC


The number of horses on average failing to complete the GN since 1986 is over 60%!

And perhaps most telling, jump racing accounts for 4 deaths per 1000 runners. The GN is 5 times that.

sources:

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/grand-national-review/grand-national-review.pdf

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp
 
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Spuff said:
And perhaps most telling, jump racing accounts for 4 deaths per 1000 runners. The GN is 5 times that.
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Those are the figures for hurdling, not jumping.

The BHA figures (and also via a study at Anglia Ruskin) place the risk at:

0.004% Hurdling
0.006% 'Chasing
0.013% Grand National

based on figures from 2002-2010.

My stats were based on comparing the Gold Cup meeting to the Grand National meeting (as a whole) from 2007 -2012.
 
simon44 said:
I bow to your superior knowledge, but if i was a horse owner and loved to ride horses, I wouldn't want my horse riding in a race where 9 have died in the last 10 years.

Lovely to see the dedicated way the racing community look after their investments. I wonder what happens to the slow horses, answer is euthanised and into a pedigree chum can, due to over breeding in the vain hope of finding the next red rum.

Or is it ok to let other animals take the risk while you love and cherish yours?

My tongue was slightly in my cheek when i mentioned the bs comment to Neil. I'm sure he has broad enough shoulder to take it on the chin. Irony is hard to convey on a forum post.
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Good grief, that has to be the most ridiculous statement you've come out with.

I know plenty of ex-race horses who are owned as happy hackers, many also that are used for polo as they're quick and used to running in close proximity to others. How about you come up with some facts to substantiate your arguments rather than linking to obviously biased online articles and wild speculation.
 
So I'm wrong because i don't have a few friends that own ex race horses. With the greatest of respect, that comment is subjective my comment is objective. I'm citing a document from national statistics, which i quoted. It may be an old document, but if anything it's worse now I would surmise.

The pedigree chum comment was glib on my part and very easy to jump on, ok i will replace that with horse meat for the French market.
 
simon44 said:
So I'm wrong because i don't have a few friends that own ex race horses. With the greatest of respect, that comment is subjective my comment is objective. I'm citing a document from national statistics, which i quoted. It may be an old document, but if anything it's worse now I would surmise.

The pedigree chum comment was glib on my part and very easy to jump on, ok i will replace that with horse meat for the French market.
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No, other peoples' comments are objective as they have actual experience of the subject.

"but if anything it's worse now I would surmise" - You're not in possession of any facts, how on earth can you summise?

As for your second comment, well It just says the same thing even though others have told you it's not the case. Those others are coming from actual experience and knowledge, both things that you don't have.

I explained to you what happens with ex race horses but you've just ignored it and restated an unfounded allegation.
 
I guess I don't have that much of an opinion one way or the other............ as I am not overly fussed about horses - though I must admit I don't like to see them destroyed.

Funny thing though is, didn't 3 horses die in the first day of Cheltenham, but no-one on here was fussed about that. But, the Grand National and the experts from all sides come out of the woodwork...

I am guessing, and I am sure for the wrong reasons, as it increases the danger / excitement / spectacle (delete as appropriate) and like with Woods at the Masters in 97 onwards, those in power at the hallowed turf of Augusta had to "Tiger-proof" the course, to keep it entertaining, so someone was not the runaway winner, effectively making the last 2 days "all show for the dough." ...likewise maybe with the national, those in charge thought it needed to be toughened up a bit, and with not really being able to lengthen it much more... the only way I guess is to "trick it up" by making it harder. (Sorry - thought I had read that some hedges or whatever they are had been made steeper and taller)

I do wonder though what consideration was given to both the jockeys and horses in making these decisions. However at the end of the day, the cold harsh light of reality it is perceived as a spectacle with a global audience, worth I assume several Billion to bookies etc, so is unlikely to stop any time soon.
 
Lynton said:
I guess I don't have that much of an opinion one way or the other............ as I am not overly fussed about horses - though I must admit I don't like to see them destroyed.

Funny thing though is, didn't 3 horses die in the first day of Cheltenham, but no-one on here was fussed about that. But, the Grand National and the experts from all sides come out of the woodwork...

I am guessing, and I am sure for the wrong reasons, as it increases the danger / excitement / spectacle (delete as appropriate) and like with Woods at the Masters in 97 onwards, those in power at the hallowed turf of Augusta had to "Tiger-proof" the course, to keep it entertaining, so someone was not the runaway winner, effectively making the last 2 days "all show for the dough." ...likewise maybe with the national, those in charge thought it needed to be toughened up a bit, and with not really being able to lengthen it much more... the only way I guess is to "trick it up" by making it harder. (Sorry - thought I had read that some hedges or whatever they are had been made steeper and taller)

I do wonder though what consideration was given to both the jockeys and horses in making these decisions. However at the end of the day, the cold harsh light of reality it is perceived as a spectacle with a global audience, worth I assume several Billion to bookies etc, so is unlikely to stop any time soon.
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Your first two sentences are spot on Lynton, and exactly what I hinted at when quoting the Gold Cup v National stats.

The second part is wrong though. The fences have been made lower and shallower over the past few years, especially with regard to the drop on the landing side! :)
 
I'm not against horses jumping, if you watch half wild ponies on moorland they'll jump things for no obvious reason than fun at times. Certainly three horses I've known have enjoyed it.

But I think even now the grand national needs something doing, as they're still pushing the horses too far. Unfortunately, the more money is involved in a sport, the higher the risks people will take.

But I'm not against racing on principle.

As for horses being used for meat, it's no different to cows or pigs so if they're treated a well as possible, well I eat meat so... Yea.
 
DemiLion said:
Your first two sentences are spot on Lynton, and exactly what I hinted at when quoting the Gold Cup v National stats.

The second part is wrong though. The fences have been made lower and shallower over the past few years, especially with regard to the drop on the landing side! :)
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Fair enough Mark - I thought I had read somewhere they were getting bigger.

good news then, if they are not.



Lynton
 
simon44 said:
linky
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from that article

For thousands of British thoroughbreds that are too old, too slow or not good enough jumpers, the end is brutal: a bullet through the temple or a metal bolt into the side of the brain. Then their carcasses are loaded on to freezer lorries and driven to France, where their flesh is sold as gourmet meat.
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How would you suggest we slaughter them then??

Absolutely typical of that rag of a publication, it's every bit as bad as the mail.
 
dod said:
from that article



How would you suggest we slaughter them then??

Absolutely typical of that rag of a publication, it's every bit as bad as the mail.
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Simples. By not over breeding.
 
The real tragedy of the racing industry is the wasteful and reckless attitudes of many stud owners and breeders who engage in over-breeding.

While some of the horses are rehabilitated and re-homed, this is not a sustainable solution to over-breeding. Horse owners in Australia are too few and far between to realistically pick of the slack of the irresponsible stud owners. And, in any case, many of these horses are too highly strung and injury prone because of their race training to be viable mounts for most leisure riders.
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Linky

Maybe Australia, but I'm pretty sure the UK horse racing community isn't lilly white.
 
if anything breeding in this country has dropped, again due to the economic climate.

i know stud farms that have seen a significant drop in custom and generally there are less foals around and/or mares in foal.
 
I fail to see the problem with slaughtering horses for export and human consumption.

According to Hansard 3084 horses were slaughtered in abattoirs for human use in 2008. You could probably double that figure for live export and animal consumption.

Knackered (in the literal sense of the word) horses have been used as animal feed for decades, however the practice is reducing due to the number of animals being put to sleep, rather than destroyed by shooting.

Yes the racing industry produces more horses than are technically needed for the sport. Of course they do, it's down to straightforward mathematics and genetics. Do you really expect every Thoroughbred that's born to be a fantastic racer?

What is far from true (no matter how the statistics are manipulated) is that a large amount of the surplus stock goes direct to slaughter. If they can be sold (into other industries), they will be, because they'll attract a far greater value than the hoof price.

If you really want to get needlessly outraged about massed animal slaughter then take a quick look at the Dairy Farming industry, where until recently (and purely due to CAP economics) male calves were routinely disposed of (knackered) at less than a week old because their meat had no viable use.
 
dod said:
How would you suggest we slaughter them then?
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Why do you need to slaughter them anyway? They're old, slow or don't jump well. They're not disabled, they're not suffering. I find it hard to believe that any animal lover would willingly euthanise a healthy animal. It's a horrible decision to make even when the animal is suffering, but I feel it's a callous person to do it simply because it isn't good enough to race.
 
simon44 said:
Linky

Maybe Australia, but I'm pretty sure the UK horse racing community isn't lilly white.
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I asked for evidence, not another concurrent opinion.

But, I'm going to humour you and say that there are too many bred and that some of those go the food chain. Why is that a problem??
 
rssmrry said:
Why do you need to slaughter them anyway? They're old, slow or don't jump well. They're not disabled, they're not suffering. I find it hard to believe that any animal lover would willingly euthanise a healthy animal. It's a horrible decision to make even when the animal is suffering, but I feel it's a callous person to do it simply because it isn't good enough to race.
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see post 105
 
Bod, more evidence as requested :)

Thanks, i love being humoured :D

The situation in Britain is typical of the global picture: three times as many horses are being produced than 40 years ago and a decreasing proportion – currently about 35% – are sufficiently robust and healthy to start racing.
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linky

pdf for your digestion
 
Look, I own horses and can't see the problem. Can you tell me why YOU think it's a problem.

Some of the ones that don't make it as racers get used for food. It just means you don't have to farm other horses. :shrug:
 
Of course that doesn't stop some lower middle class bitch clambering on top of him twice a week and thrashing his arse with a stick.
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I don't know what he is whining about some people would pay good money for that :D

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Of course that doesn't stop some lower middle class bitch clambering on top of him twice a week and thrashing his arse with a stick.
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I don't know what he is whining about some people would pay good money for that :D

P:lol:M:lol:S:lol:L
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Aye, that was quite funny :D
 
Huge Suspicious-Looking Sausages in a Scarlet Pimpernel Sauce, anyone?


Personally I love dobbin burger, me. All the better with melted Roquefort!
 
is it just me or are some of the statements in that pdf complete non-issues? (e.g the part about stallions being kept on their own and being used mate a few times a day)

to be honest like i said earlier id suspect the current levels of daily (non-racing) horses getting abandoned, neglected (through the owner not having the funds), killed inhumanely etc is a more worrying figure. i know redwings and several other horse welfare organisations are full to the brim with horses needing rehoming.
 
neil_g said:
is it just me or are some of the statements in that pdf complete non-issues? (e.g the part about stallions being kept on their own and being used mate a few times a day)

.
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I haven't had time to read the whole thing but there appear to be a lot of dramatic photos, one or two facts and a whole pile of hysteria.
 
joescrivens said:
because thousands of helthy chickens, cows and pigs are being slaughtered every day for you to eat. Why don't you care about them?
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How very dare you forget about the sheep..


...the sheep are watching yew!!



DLP_9054.jpg




...this thread needed some pics!!
 
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