Grand National - Bet or Boycott?

I would much rather be a Grand National horse, getting the best food, medical care and lots of rides with a small risk of death, than one of those pikey horses chained in a field, or for that matter, a battery chicken or a fish about to get its mouth hooked!

Yes, horses die, but we don't live in Utopia when nothing bad happens! Things like that are dangerous but that is why its the most famous race in the world. If a horse doesn't want to jump it doesn't - it happens a fair few times!
 
cambsno said:
I would much rather be a Grand National horse, getting the best food, medical care and lots of rides with a small risk of death, than one of those pikey horses chained in a field, or for that matter, a battery chicken or a fish about to get its mouth hooked!

Yes, horses die, but we don't live in Utopia when nothing bad happens! Things like that are dangerous but that is why its the most famous race in the world. If a horse doesn't want to jump it doesn't - it happens a fair few times!
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I'd rather be a Derby winner though.

The bloke on your back is smaller and lighter, you only have to run a mile, and after the win the rest of your life is spent eating, sleeping and shagging (yup, your nuts are still intact)!!!
 
IMHO its not the height of the fences that is the problem but the width (from starting point of jump to landing point) as they can be 12ft, thats a hell of a stretch for what are (in comparison to your usual cob) fairly small and dainty legged horses.
Also i have done a little bit of jumping in the past and if the horse doesnt want to jump, trust me, it wont!
 
what i probably should have said was im happy in my own opinion based on info that comes from knowing someone who has been riding for 30 years and that i dont feel like arguing about it :)
 
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interesting link.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse


fwiw - as an ex-rider and ex-supporter of the national, my own feeling these days is that many sports can contain an element of risk, but I prefer it if ALL the participants enter fully understanding that risk and horses don't. Having said that, even a donkey is at some risk on a Sunday afternoon down the beach, so where exactly do you draw the line with 'working' animals? :shrug: No, I don't like the idea of the National anymore, haven't done for a couple of years, but I can also appreciate that there are far worse things a 'dumb animal' could be made to do.
 
neil_g said:
on info that comes from knowing someone who has been riding for 30 years
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That is the worst kind of evidence in an emotive argument.

I'm pretty sure your mate will air on the side of pro horse racing. Which if true is a little weird as 9 horse have died at the national in the last 10 years. I would have thought he or she was a horse lover?

It needs a dispassionate enquiry on this and needs to be sorted asap. (which it won't)
 
Yv said:
interesting link.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse


fwiw - as an ex-rider and ex-supporter of the national, my own feeling these days is that many sports can contain an element of risk, but I prefer it if ALL the participants enter fully understanding that risk and horses don't. Having said that, even a donkey is at some risk on a Sunday afternoon down the beach, so where exactly do you draw the line with 'working' animals? :shrug: No, I don't like the idea of the National anymore, haven't done for a couple of years, but I can also appreciate that there are far worse things a 'dumb animal' could be made to do.
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interesting link indeed, good read.

ive known horses be put down for injurys sustained while turned out in a field, unfortunately horses legs are, while incredibly powerful as that article states, incredibly hard to fix. while i have heard of a few breaks being repaired i believe these are phenominally expensivly procedures and will depend largely on the type of break.

simon44 said:
That is the worst kind of evidence in an emotive argument.

I'm pretty sure your mate will air on the side of pro horse racing. Which if true is a little weird as 9 horse have died at the national in the last 10 years. I would have thought he or she was a horse lover?

It needs a dispassionate enquiry on this and needs to be sorted asap. (which it won't)
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she is a horse lover and prefers dressage (doesnt get involved with racing), but like i said above a horse can break its leg (etc) while out grazing in a field. where do you draw the line, do you wrap them in cotton wool, keep them stable bound?
 
neil_g said:
do you wrap them in cotton wool, keep them stable bound?
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I think there is a difference between a comfy stable and a 4.5 mile gallop with 40 other horses and some extremely demanding fences.

Come on Neil, surly you have a better argument than that?

Edit: sorry forgot, you can't be arsed :D
 
actually I have decided now, flat racing yes, but no more jump racing for me.

my son and hubby have a good plan - racing without riders. Maybe with one 'pace' horse being ridden to get the horses to follow - if they miss a fence they lose points, if they refuse and stop they are disqualified. A bit like dog agility competitions :lol:

and surely fairer to the horse?
 
simon44 said:
I think there is a difference between a comfy stable and a 4.5 mile gallop with 40 other horses and some extremely demanding fences.
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Not really.

Out of interest, since 2007 40 horses have died at the Cheltenham course at various meets, whilst only 25 died at Aintree.

For this year 3 horses died at the National meet, whilst 5 died at the Gold Cup meet.

I can understand complaints against Steeplechasing as a whole (although I certainly don't agree with it), however against one single race?


Why does this come up year after year? One simple reason- more people watch the Grand National on television than any equestrian event (8.5m this year).

Racing is dangerous to both horse and rider, but the National Meeting has no greater death toll than any other significant meet. Either seek a total ban, or get over it - but stop bleating that the National is cruel to horses.
 
sturisoma said:
a

my son and hubby have a good plan - racing without riders. Maybe with one 'pace' horse being ridden to get the horses to follow


and surely fairer to the horse?
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You know that Synchronised broke it's leg five fences after shipping McCoy and whilst running on its own, don't you?
 
[QUOTE="]but stop bleating that the National is cruel to horses.[/QUOTE]

Not bleating, if I were I would be saying baaaa!

Don't like horse racing, never did I find it boring. Also dislike the way the horsey community moaned about the whip rule. As if they have a right to inflict pain on their steeds, that is frankly potty.

From what you're saying Dave, there is a good argument to make it a lot safer than it already is. Maybe a ban on jump courses?

I'm not informed enough about it and people involved in the sport should be boycotted from the debate as they have a particular axe to grind.
 
DemiLion said:
You know that Synchronised broke it's leg five fences after shipping McCoy and whilst running on its own, don't you?
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Also synchronised chucked his rider off in a state panic and was still allowed to run.
 
simon44 said:
I think there is a difference between a comfy stable and a 4.5 mile gallop with 40 other horses and some extremely demanding fences.

Come on Neil, surly you have a better argument than that?

Edit: sorry forgot, you can't be arsed :D
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4.5 miles that they are trained significantly for.

they are also herd animals who will instinctively gallop in close proximity (40 in a field i agree could be a touch excessive, but the field often spreads out).

the demanding fences which have had consultation from several wellfare organisations to make better (source: http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/horse-welfare/)? like someone said earlier also, to make the jumps much smaller would make it a much faster (and dangerous) race.
 
DemiLion said:
You know that Synchronised broke it's leg five fences after shipping McCoy and whilst running on its own, don't you?
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nope - I didn't know that, I thought it broke its leg with AP on its back :shake:

perhaps this horse is a special case because it really did not want to be in that race, perhaps it was feeling under the weather. Animal instinct is very powerful and shouldn't be dismissed or ignored IMHO
 
simon44 said:
Also synchronised chucked his rider off in a state panic and was still allowed to run.
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if it was in a state of panic you would be able catch it or remount it. some horses just spook (or indeed just act like an arse, which wouldnt surprise me for a racehorse as theyre generally all VERY highly strung at the best of times) for whatever reason, doesnt make them unsuitable to ride.
 
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simon44 said:
Also synchronised chucked his rider off in a state panic and was still allowed to run.
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Nope. It napped on landing after Beacher's and threw its jockey. Nothing to do with panic at all.
 
simon44 said:
I'm not informed enough about it and people involved in the sport should be boycotted from the debate as they have a particular axe to grind.
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So a debate about Racing should be conducted without informed opinion? That's a bit of a bizarre comment!
 
DemiLion said:
Nope. It napped on landing after Beacher's and threw its jockey. Nothing to do with panic at all.
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mate it chucked its rider off before the race even started. They grabbed hold of it put the rider back on and started the race. It then unseated the rider again and then broke its leg.

Its a catalogue of errors. All stemming from greed and money over the well being of the horse.
 
DemiLion said:
So a debate about Racing should be conducted without informed opinion? That's a bit of a bizarre comment!
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lol your'e really good at this :D nits you could pick them off of me any day :)

I think that was a typo :D

I would like vets, the rspca and experts (not owners) to look at how to make the sport safer.

Being informed is a prerequisite of course :)
 
neil_g said:
4.5 miles that they are trained significantly for.

they are also herd animals who will instinctively gallop in close proximity (40 in a field i agree could be a touch excessive, but the field often spreads out).
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Are you connected with the horse racing community? You are certainly banging the drum for them. :)

It's not particularly a natural environment is it? I mean the winning horse is stuck in the middle of a pen while exhausted and flustered, is that a natural thing?

It's a BS argument and a non argument, your'e cherry picking anything you can grab and flicking it at me. News flash! I love eating flicked cherries :p nom nom
 
simon44 said:
Are you connected with the horse racing community? You are certainly banging the drum for them. :)
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nope, not connected in the slightest.

It's not particularly a natural environment is it? I mean the winning horse is stuck in the middle of a pen while exhausted and flustered, is that a natural thing?
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its walked around the winners enclosure, during which time the horse is normally cooled off. not sure what thats go to do with what i said about being instinctive to gallop in numbers though.

It's a BS argument and a non argument, your'e cherry picking anything you can grab and flicking it at me. News flash! I love eating flicked cherries :p nom nom
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pot kettle? i see youve skipped my comment about the "panicing" horse and the RSPCA involvement. insidentally my OH stalion threw her off the other day for no other reason than by nature he is highly strung and is a bit of an arse. doesnt mean the rider shouldnt get straight back on and continue with their ride.

if you feel ive skipped over anything you said let me know and i'll have a look.
 
simon44 said:
Are you connected with the horse racing community? You are certainly banging the drum for them. :)

It's not particularly a natural environment is it? I mean the winning horse is stuck in the middle of a pen while exhausted and flustered, is that a natural thing?

It's a BS argument and a non argument, your'e cherry picking anything you can grab and flicking it at me. News flash! I love eating flicked cherries :p nom nom
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Simon, do you just get a kick out of arguing with people over a subject that you know nothing about? Both Mark & Neil (and myself for that matter) know horses and a lot about the behaviour and reactions of horses. It might be a good opportunity to listen & learn.
 
I bow to your superior knowledge, but if i was a horse owner and loved to ride horses, I wouldn't want my horse riding in a race where 9 have died in the last 10 years.

Lovely to see the dedicated way the racing community look after their investments. I wonder what happens to the slow horses, answer is euthanised and into a pedigree chum can, due to over breeding in the vain hope of finding the next red rum.

Or is it ok to let other animals take the risk while you love and cherish yours?

My tongue was slightly in my cheek when i mentioned the bs comment to Neil. I'm sure he has broad enough shoulder to take it on the chin. Irony is hard to convey on a forum post.
 
simon44 said:
I bow to your superior knowledge, but if i was a horse owner and loved to ride horses, I wouldn't want my horse riding in a race where 9 have died in the last 10 years.

Lovely to see the dedicated way the racing community look after their investments. I wonder what happens to the slow horses, answer is euthanised and into a pedigree chum can, due to over breeding in the vain hope of finding the next red rum.

Or is it ok to let other animals take the risk while you love and cherish yours?

My tongue was slightly in my cheek when i mentioned the bs comment to Neil. I'm sure he has broad enough shoulder to take it on the chin. Irony is hard to convey on a forum post.
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racehorses quite often get sold on for other sports and/or retired. i know a few people that have ex racehorses as dailys, they take a bit more work but there is no reason to turn a good horse into dog food as you put it.

anyway, this thread is starting to smell a lot like troll so im out.
 
I think the troll comment is aimed at me :)

I think you will find a troll delights in other people, or other living things misfortune.

Who is doing that? Animals through no fault of their own have died and I take no pleasure in it whatsoever. I would like it to stop.
 
simon44 said:
Lovely to see the dedicated way the racing community look after their investments. I wonder what happens to the slow horses, answer is euthanised and into a pedigree chum can, due to over breeding in the vain hope of finding the next red rum.
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Do you know anything about this? There are lots of thoroughbreds in private ownership that are used for summer evening and weekend riding, maybe a bit of non-affiliated dressage or showjumping. They command a good price as well (I'm talking in four figures).

I'm not connected to the horse racing industry or anything equine. To be honest I can't stand the things and don't understand the appeal of riding or ownership at all. But as an example of the value, the ex sold her five year old mare, which was 15/16 or 31/32 thoroughbred so not a pure thoroughbred and therefore ineligible for racing, nor could it be used to breed a thoroughbred, for £4500 when I was with her. An expensive tin of pedigree chum.
 
simon44 said:
Are you connected with the horse racing community? You are certainly banging the drum for them. :)

It's not particularly a natural environment is it? I mean the winning horse is stuck in the middle of a pen while exhausted and flustered, is that a natural thing?

It's a BS argument and a non argument, your'e cherry picking anything you can grab and flicking it at me. News flash! I love eating flicked cherries :p nom nom
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Putting planks on your feet and going down a mountain very fast is not a natural environment but some people still go skiing! Showjumping is not natural - lets ban that, same too with mounted police or sniffer dogs - not natural so ban that too!

Why is it as soon as someone or something dies people have to try to ban it. Life is about risk, but too many people these days want us to live in a sterile and risk free society.

And before someone states that horses dont sign up to the National, they dont, but horses do refuse fences if they dont want to jump them.
 
Frankly I find all animal racing abhorrent. Horse racing events like the Grand National may seem all glitzy and glamourous on the surface but the fact is that the racing industry is an exploitative business motivated purely by greed, and frankly I think it's shameful that we, as a supposedly civilised species, still allow it.

And to those who say that horse racing is fine because "horses enjoy running" - if they enjoy running so much, why is it necessary to whip them?
 
"Never, in the field of social networking, was so much ignorance expressed, by so few, over topics of which they clearly have little awareness of..."

JD with apologies to WC
 
onona said:
Frankly I find all animal racing abhorrent. Horse racing events like the Grand National may seem all glitzy and glamourous on the surface but the fact is that the racing industry is an exploitative business motivated purely by greed, and frankly I think it's shameful that we, as a supposedly civilised species, still allow it.

And to those who say that horse racing is fine because "horses enjoy running" - if they enjoy running so much, why is it necessary to whip them?
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Jockeys are restricted to a limited use of the whip, and I believe its more to correct the direction rather than to go faster.

Horse racing does provide employment and also enjoyment to a great many people. I personally dont see the point of show jumping and never watch it but I appreciate that many people do like it and enjoy it. Same with dog shows, I dislike dogs but have no reason to see it banned, or that fact that people like to keep snakes/hamsters in cages or tanks!

If cruelty is the argument against the Grand National, then there are a great many other interests involving animals that are far, far worse, and anyone genuinely concerned about animal cruelty should be focused on them.
 
onona said:
And to those who say that horse racing is fine because "horses enjoy running" - if they enjoy running so much, why is it necessary to whip them?
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I think the whipping is to make them run faster. Whilst they may enjoy running, they might not be running fast enough to win the race without being spurred on.

EDIT: simon, I didn't know that it was for direction
 
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