Government Eavesdropping

petersmart

Suspended / Banned
Messages
5,000
Edit My Images
Yes
A truly terrifying statement from Vodafone reveals the extent of governmental snooping on YOU!!:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...eals-secret-wires-allowing-state-surveillance

and if this is happening to Vodafone it is almost certainly happening to ALL mobile phone companies (and landlines).

Particularly ironic because of the 70th Anniversary of D-Day when millions lost their lives to protect our freedoms which are now under attack as never before by the very governments paying their "tributes" to those men and women.
.
 
the greater irony is that the reason we were able to get to D Day without losing well before that was the commitment and dedication of the government agencies responsible for national security - attacking them based on an article largely about what foreign governments are doing is naive at best and disingenous at worst.

If you arent a terorist or a criminal you have nothing to fear from this (at least in the way it is implemented in the UK) and anyone who fears the GCHQ is listen to them discussing shopping with their wife or going drinking with their mates is suffering from a high degree of paranoia
 
the greater irony is that the reason we were able to get to D Day without losing well before that was the commitment and dedication of the government agencies responsible for national security - attacking them based on an article largely about what foreign governments are doing is naive at best and disingenous at worst.

If you arent a terorist or a criminal you have nothing to fear from this (at least in the way it is implemented in the UK) and anyone who fears the GCHQ is listen to them discussing shopping with their wife or going drinking with their mates is suffering from a high degree of paranoia

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me!

And don't forget that the well meaning folks at GCHQ were only too happy to view all the porn which they got from Yahoo in a program called Optic Nerve:

"The documents also chronicle GCHQ's sustained struggle to keep the large store of sexually explicit imagery collected by Optic Nerve away from the eyes of its staff, though there is little discussion about the privacy implications of storing this material in the first place."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo

The problem with such surveillance is that it simply means that terrorists and criminals will find more secure methods of caring out their plans.

In America all the security agencies are complaining about this and the fact that more and more people are now "going dark" on the Internet, meaning that they use VPN tunnels, encrypted e-mails etc to protect their privacy.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
The problem with such surveillance is that it simply means that terrorists and criminals will find more secure methods of caring out their plans.
.

That's rather like saying that we shouldnt try to enforce the law because the criminals will react to our efforts to catch them

also that should really have said "the problem with publicising such surveilance..." which will by why the government agencies didn't
 
More and more we are moving towards a police state and if you don't believe that why have so many photographers been harassed by the police (and even arrested) for doing nothing illegal at all?

And why are more and more police and others in authority being revealed as crooks themselves?

.
 
Last edited:
Who cares. I know I've greater things going on in my life than to worry about some bloody snoop lugging in to my fone conversations, texts, emails or whatever.

As stated, if yer doing nothing wrong there's nothing to worry about. It happens, you nor I will change it. Get over it.
 
More and more we are moving towards a police state and if you don't believe that why have so many photographers been harassed by the police (and even arrested) for doing nothing illegal at all?

To put it into perspective, it isn't really that many photographers when you compare it with the number who don't get harassed. And every case of police harassment I have been aware of has ended up with the police issuing an apology.

And on a technicality, you can't be arrested for something which isn't an arrestable offence.


Steve.
 
why have so many photographers been harassed by the police (and even arrested) for doing nothing illegal at all?

they havent - a tiny tiny minority of photographer have been asked to move on by police... and an even msmaller minority of them may have found that the police werent conversant with the law on photography (its asking a bit much for a policeman to know every single law in the uk starute book by heart) , in most of the cases that have been publicised (themselves a teeny percentage of police/photographer interactions) the photographer has done something illegal or at least unwise to provoke a confrontation (in some cases deliberately so that they could video it)

And why are more and more police and others in authority being revealed as crooks themselves?

.

that statement is contrary to your argument - in a police state the police and those in authority would not be subject to the law - the reason that more are being exposed now than their were in say the 70s is because the PSD teams and the IPPC are becoming more efficient and more supported in policing the police.

Anyone who thninks the Uk is becoming a police state should go and visit China, or zimbabwe or myanmar etc to see what the term really means.
 
Last edited:
A truly terrifying statement from Vodafone reveals the extent of governmental snooping on YOU!!:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...eals-secret-wires-allowing-state-surveillance

and if this is happening to Vodafone it is almost certainly happening to ALL mobile phone companies (and landlines).

Particularly ironic because of the 70th Anniversary of D-Day when millions lost their lives to protect our freedoms which are now under attack as never before by the very governments paying their "tributes" to those men and women.
.
Roflmao so and you think that without the intelligence gather those breakthroughs were made then? Or now?

Fair enough if you are against it, but don't bring in d-day veterans into something you obviously have no idea about both from a historic context and the current day.
 
To put it into perspective, it isn't really that many photographers when you compare it with the number who don't get harassed. And every case of police harassment I have been aware of has ended up with the police issuing an apology.

And on a technicality, you can't be arrested for something which isn't an arrestable offence.


Steve.

Really? :

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ester-news/i-was-just-doing-my-job-men-862969

http://www.bindmans.com/news-and-ev...nning-round-acting-silly-being-stupid-and-gay

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2010/feb/21/police-arrest-photographer

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...him-and-make-his-day-living-hell-9044719.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...him-and-make-his-day-living-hell-9044719.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/15/tall_photographers/

http://www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/treated-like-terrorist-when-filming-case-study.html

I'll bet they're all really glad they couldn't be arrested!

.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
Roflmao so and you think that without the intelligence gather those breakthroughs were made then? Or now?

Fair enough if you are against it, but don't bring in d-day veterans into something you obviously have no idea about both from a historic context and the current day.

I have a perfect understanding of the historic context but you obviously don't or don't care to see it.

At that time we were at war - which means that civil liberties had been suspended - and quite rightly.

But we were also governed by men who, although they may have made mistakes were, for the most part, both honourable and honest - do you really think the governments of today can measure up to them?

Out governments now think nothing of making false promises, lying to parliament and to the electorate, and betraying whatever principles they once claimed to espouse.

The two eras are as different as chalk and cheese.
.
 
A truly terrifying statement from Vodafone reveals the extent of governmental snooping on YOU!!:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...eals-secret-wires-allowing-state-surveillance

and if this is happening to Vodafone it is almost certainly happening to ALL mobile phone companies (and landlines).

Particularly ironic because of the 70th Anniversary of D-Day when millions lost their lives to protect our freedoms which are now under attack as never before by the very governments paying their "tributes" to those men and women.
.

Hopefully you will have read the full report by Vodafone which sets out just how strict the UK legislative framework is in terms of acquiring either communications data or lawful intercept. Indeed the acquisition of communications data by local authorities was made even more onerous fairly recently by the requirement for judicial oversight. In respect of 'phone tapping' i.e. actually listening in to telephone calls - this is reserved for serious organised criminals and terrorists and can only be authorised by the Home Secretary. Even then it can never be used in evidence regardless of what is said. I for one find this re-assuring rather than 'terrifying'.
 

He said you can't be arrested for something thats not an arrestable ofence

of those examples

#1 was breach of the peace, 2&3 were antisocial behaviour (although they were both apologised to and released later - the cops involved disciplined), 4 and 5 were the same case and he wasnt arrested (cop concerned disciplined) , 6 was for threatening a police officer, and 7 was sect 44 of the terorism act

so as said you can't be arrested for something that isnt an arrestable offence - you can be arrested if you commit an arrestable ofence while taking photographs (or in the case of #6 if you behave like a major league prat and set out to provoke a confrontation with officers)

7 examples with only 5 arrests where 3 of them were probably justified isnt exactly evidence of a police state - do you think the KGB used to investigate complaints of wrongful arrest (which didnt actuallu exist in soviet Russia the state security aparatus had the power to detain anyone without charge indefinitely) - they'd have been more likely to arrest anyone complaining and indeed to arrest you for criticising the state.

theres a good acid test for whether you are living in a police state ... if you can say that you are with impunity, then you arent.
 
"
MEN Comment

We report today how one of our photographers was arrested while taking pictures of a street brawl following a court hearing relating to an assault on Big Fat Gypsy Weddings star Paddy Doherty. Other MEN photographers were threatened with arrest if they did not delete images, but refused to do so.

Our photographer was later released without charge. But serious questions remain about the police's attitude to professional journalists doing their job in bearing witness to a newsworthy event in a public place in the middle of Manchester.

Wiser judgement prevailed when senior officers became involved. But this unfortunate incident is evidence of a worrying phenomenon, that some rank and file police officers no longer seem to understand or respect the role of the press.

When we reach the stage that constables decide where we can and cannot point a camera in bringing you the news, we will be living in a police state."
 
There is no such thing as an arrestable offence anymore. That concept evaporated with the introduction of the 2005 Serious Organised Crime and Police Act.

A person can be arrested on suspicion of any offence, but there has to be reasonable grounds to believe it is necessary as per the SOCAP/PACE Code G criteria.

These include, but are not limited to, the arrest being necessary to;
Prevent harm or injury (suspect harming themselves or another person);
Prevent loss of or damage to property;
Protect a child or vulnerable person;
Prevent the disappearance of an offender which may hinder a prosecution (suspect believed unlikely to attend court after bail, or unsatisfactory address provided for service of summons);
Ascertain a suspects name or address (where unknown, unable to be confirmed, or where the constable has reasonable grounds to doubt the information given);
Prevent an offence against public decency;
Prevent an obstruction of the highway;
Allow for a prompt and effective investigation (interview, searches, bail, special warning, prevent the destruction of evidence, take dna or fingerprints, photograph suspect, drug testing etc).
 

No. 1 "The arrest was later quashed and he was released without charge."
Actually, he was taken in for breach of the peace which is a cautionable offence, not an arrestable one.

No. 2 "has received an out of court settlement and an apology from the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis."

No. 3 Couldn't be bothered to watch the video.

No. 4 "Regarding this particular incident, there is currently a misconduct investigation ongoing and it would not be appropriate to comment further at this time"
It doesn't say if he was detained.

No. 5 As above.

No. 6 "Turner took a photo of the pair, and was promptly arrested. It is unclear from his own account precisely what he was being arrested for"
???

etc.

The point I was making is that you can only be arrested for something which is actually an arrestable offence. Otherwise you are just being detained. If a police officer makes up a law and 'arrests' you for it, technically it is not an arrest.

Yes, it does happen. And as I said earlier, in all cases I am aware of, apologies have been made afterwards - as shown in you 'examples'


Steve.
 
Last edited:
Aaah that's all right then if they're just being "detained" - I'm amazed they complained at all!
.

No one is suggesting it is right. It's just not technically an arrest.

As well as not being able to be arrested for taking a photograph, you also cannot be arrested for wearing a loud shirt or walking around with an offensive wife.



Steve.
 
Last edited:
He said you can't be arrested for something thats not an arrestable ofence

of those examples

#1 was breach of the peace, 2&3 were antisocial behaviour (although they were both apologised to and released later - the cops involved disciplined), 4 and 5 were the same case and he wasnt arrested (cop concerned disciplined) , 6 was for threatening a police officer, and 7 was sect 44 of the terorism act

so as said you can't be arrested for something that isnt an arrestable offence - you can be arrested if you commit an arrestable ofence while taking photographs (or in the case of #6 if you behave like a major league prat and set out to provoke a confrontation with officers)

7 examples with only 5 arrests where 3 of them were probably justified isnt exactly evidence of a police state - do you think the KGB used to investigate complaints of wrongful arrest (which didnt actuallu exist in soviet Russia the state security aparatus had the power to detain anyone without charge indefinitely) - they'd have been more likely to arrest anyone complaining and indeed to arrest you for criticising the state.

theres a good acid test for whether you are living in a police state ... if you can say that you are with impunity, then you arent.


What utter tosh! It's people like you that steadfastly refuse to believe that any copper can do no wrong that are one of the great dangers to freedom in this country. In each of these cited cases, any reasonable person would be very hard pressed to see a genuine breach of the peace or genuine anti-social behaviour. It is abundantly clear that the constables involved had no genuine grounds for an arrest so create a fictitious scenario in order to get their way. It is no more than bullying ... plain and simple. And how the WPC in incident number 6 managed to nick someone on the grounds that she felt intimidated by the bloke's height I'll never know. If that was genuinely the case then she should be arresting everyone she comes across who is taller than her. In truth, all of these cited incidents are a case of police abusing their powers and, to be frank, it's people like you who persistently turn a blind eye that will allow such abuses to perpetuate and even gather pace. You do this country no favours.
 
Oohh.. do you do them in a range of sizes...

catintinfoilhat.jpg

Oh yeah I stock all sizes to fit even the biggest heads right down to mouse size as I know how conscious members are of the protection of their pets also...these can be over nighted with a fully tracked courier service :P

Payment must be in a non conformist government controlled denomination, though I will accept gold bullion or coins :D
 
Oh yeah I stock all sizes to fit even the biggest heads right down to mouse size as I know how conscious members are of the protection of their pets also...these can be over nighted with a fully tracked courier service :p

Payment must be in a non conformist government controlled denomination, though I will accept gold bullion or coins :D
Can you give a guarantee that these are NSA proof?
 
I have a perfect understanding of the historic context but you obviously don't or don't care to see it.

At that time we were at war - which means that civil liberties had been suspended - and quite rightly.

But we were also governed by men who, although they may have made mistakes were, for the most part, both honourable and honest - do you really think the governments of today can measure up to them?

Out governments now think nothing of making false promises, lying to parliament and to the electorate, and betraying whatever principles they once claimed to espouse.

The two eras are as different as chalk and cheese.
.
Naturally it was all better in the good old days. Greed did not exist, power hunger did not exist. Heck they were not even human.

Hey ho, enjoy your life and the good old days ;)
 
Can you give a guarantee that these are NSA proof?

Well they have never penetrated my thoughts on how to bring down the all powerful dark overlords....of course I cannot fully test them with the NSA seeing the specs, however I do have a loyal customer from Quantico, Vaginia...that swears by them for keeping their agents safe from outside agents of course I cannot release who this client is...
 
Cool! I'll have 400M Naira available for a bulk order, if you can send me £32K to my Lawyer I can unlock the cash and buy your hats....Shall we meet in the RAC club in St James's?
 
Cool! I'll have 400M Naira available for a bulk order, if you can send me £32K to my Lawyer I can unlock the cash and buy your hats....Shall we meet in the RAC club in St James's?

Would you like the clearance fee sent via western union?
 
It IS an interesting point though - should a government be allowed to monitor its citizens private conversation etc? I'm no tin-foil hat wearer, but I am aware that rules were made by governments for other people, and it's not unknown to ask forgiveness instead of permission.

Should private citizens have a right to privacy - that's really the question?
 
It IS an interesting point though - should a government be allowed to monitor its citizens private conversation etc? I'm no tin-foil hat wearer, but I am aware that rules were made by governments for other people, and it's not unknown to ask forgiveness instead of permission.

Should private citizens have a right to privacy - that's really the question?
Unfortunately the question isn't that simplistic....Ofcourse private citizens have a right and have privacy in the UK...I don't think that is even the question....
 
Unfortunately the question isn't that simplistic....Ofcourse private citizens have a right and have privacy in the UK...I don't think that is even the question....

So much privacy that we have CCTV cameras everywhere, any government body can listen to our private phone calls any time they like, or snoop upon our private e-mails as they wish - these really are the good times!

And of course we mustn't forget that most wonderful of new ideas - the secret courts where the accused has no right to defend himself or herself!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tes-birth-no-warning-secret-court-ruling.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-care-home-tells-terrifying-police-swoop.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...father-care-home-handed-punishment-court.html

http://www.dad.info/blogs/latest-ne...ending-son-21st-birthday-greeting-on-facebook

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rror-trial-is-assault-on-British-justice.html

There are still a few people in power who are willing to stand by the principles of open justice:

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/03/10/secret-courts-outrage-triggers-dramatic-resignation

But they grow fewer every day!

And since these are secret courts it is almost certain there have been many more cases we will never hear about.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/01/31/no-compromise-as-govt-pushes-ahead-with-secret-courts

1984 meets Kafka!
.
 
Last edited:
What utter tosh! It's people like you that steadfastly refuse to believe that any copper can do no wrong that are one of the great dangers to freedom in this country. In each of these cited cases, any reasonable person would be very hard pressed to see a genuine breach of the peace or genuine anti-social behaviour. It is abundantly clear that the constables involved had no genuine grounds for an arrest so create a fictitious scenario in order to get their way. It is no more than bullying ... plain and simple. And how the WPC in incident number 6 managed to nick someone on the grounds that she felt intimidated by the bloke's height I'll never know. If that was genuinely the case then she should be arresting everyone she comes across who is taller than her. In truth, all of these cited incidents are a case of police abusing their powers and, to be frank, it's people like you who persistently turn a blind eye that will allow such abuses to perpetuate and even gather pace. You do this country no favours.

where did I say a copper could do no wrong - three of those cases involved cops being disciplined for over stepping the mark. However the real irony is that its the cops you are so ready to vilify that keep you safe on the street and in your bed... often putting their lives on the line to do so.

Also you are making the common mistake of judging the police based on hear say evidence - you don't know why the WPC in case 6 felt threatened - we've only go the photographers word for it being because of his height - and that's something that I strongly doubt is true... you don't get to be a cop by being a shrinking violet

you are also judging me on the basis of what you think I sais rather than actually reading the thread... the point I was making was a very specific one steve said you couldn't be arrested for an uarrestable offence - peter said you could and that these 6 cases were evidence of that ... the point I was making was not that these were all good arrests but that they did relate to arrestable offences.

In case 1 the police were busy dealing with a violent altercation in the street when the photographer decided to get in their way and unsurprisingly found himself getting nicked for breach of the peace - it may not have been the best police work but on the other hand how many violent street fights have you broken up ? The photographer should have had more sense than to bother them while the fight was on

case 2 and 3 were lousy police work although there was an arrest for an arrestable offence - there were later apologies and the officers involved were disciplined

case 4/5 (one case quoted twice) didn't involve an arrest so its irrelevant in the light of the particular discussion - the officer concerned was disciplined for the way he behaved

case 6 - as above we don't know why the officer felt threatened , or what the photographer said etc , but threatening a police officer is definitely an arrestable offence

and case 7 involved section 44 of the terrorism act - now that isn't a 'good' law by any means but the police aren't tasked with deciding what laws are well drafted they just have to enforce them... again we are dealing with 'evidence' from a highly biased source so we don't know exactly what happened or why the police decided to arrest under that legislation.. don't know means don't know.

In all 7 cases a "reasonable person" wouldn't blindly judge the officers involved based on a preconceived agenda, blind predjudice and half the facts

At the end of the day the average British copper isn't some fascist on a power trip - they are by and large good men and women doing a nasty difficult job for the good of society and attacking them based on biased evidence and hearsay does the country no favours - while trying to make them out to be the Sicherdenheist in blue is as insulting as it is laughable.
 
So much privacy that we have CCTV cameras everywhere, any government body can listen to our private phone calls any time they like, or snoop upon our private e-mails as they wish - these really are the good times!

And of course we mustn't forget that most wonderful of new ideas - the secret courts where the accused has no right to defend himself or herself!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tes-birth-no-warning-secret-court-ruling.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-care-home-tells-terrifying-police-swoop.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...father-care-home-handed-punishment-court.html

http://www.dad.info/blogs/latest-ne...ending-son-21st-birthday-greeting-on-facebook

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rror-trial-is-assault-on-British-justice.html

There are still a few people in power who are willing to stand by the principles of open justice:

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/03/10/secret-courts-outrage-triggers-dramatic-resignation

But they grow fewer every day!

And since these are secret courts it is almost certain there have been many more cases we will never hear about.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/01/31/no-compromise-as-govt-pushes-ahead-with-secret-courts

1984 meets Kafka!
.
And they couldn't do that before? You make it sound like this is new. Do you remember the old analogue switchboards don't you think people were listening in then? that mail wasn't opened at mount pleasant

In my opinion you should stop p***ing in the wind if you are truly concerned about this and figure out what the real questions should be

Only then we may get into useful and interesting territory

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Last edited:
At the end of the day the average British copper isn't some fascist on a power trip - they are by and large good men and women doing a nasty difficult job for the good of society and attacking them based on biased evidence and hearsay does the country no favours - while trying to make them out to be the Sicherdenheist in blue is as insulting as it is laughable.

Just as the German people laughed at the followers of a silly little house painter from Austria - and stood by and did nothing until it was too late?

Just as Bertold Brecht said in his opera "The resistable rise of Arturo UI" - "The bitch is in heat again" meaning the rise of any form of dictatorship where those who intend to take over always tell their victims that they are there to protect them.

And as one such victim cried out in the same opera "Who will protect us from our protectors?"
.
 
And they couldn't do that before? You make it sound like this is new. Do you remember the old analogue switchboards don't you think people were listening in then? that mail wasn't opened at mount pleasant

In my opinion you should stop p***ing in the wind if you are truly concerned about this and figure out what the real questions should be

Only then we may get into useful and interesting territory

So your argument is that those abuses of justice in the past makes it alright now?
 
So much privacy that we have CCTV cameras everywhere, any government body can listen to our private phone calls any time they like, or snoop upon our private e-mails as they wish - these really are the good times!

as I said earlier if you are not a terrorist or a criminal you have to have an unhealthy dose of paranoia to think that government are interested in your emails or phone calls - the fact that you can freely criticise them on a public forum without finding yourself disappeared demonstrates that the police state stuff is just errant cobblers

1984 meets Kafka!
.

have you actually read either of these ? :bang:

as I said earlier if you think Britain is police state go visit some of the garden spots of the world - North Korea would be a good start, or Myanmar , or Zimbabwe, or Iran to find out what the concept really means.
 
Just as the German people laughed at the followers of a silly little house painter from Austria - and stood by and did nothing until it was too late?
.

Did they ? really ? - erm actually no they didn't - the Weimar republic was a mess , with various factions vying for control , communists, royalists , social democrats, Nazi's etc , anyone who laughed at the Nazi's well before they came to power would have got his head kicked in by a brownshirt mob.
 
Payment must be in a non conformist government controlled denomination, though I will accept gold bullion or coins :D

do you accept turnips , or do you fear an uprising of fen people taking control of the turnip exchange mechanism
 
Back
Top