G20 Summit Next Week

mid_gen said:
To be perfectly honest, anyone in a big mob of people that are engaged in smashing up a bank can reasonably expect to get a good kicking when the police try and bring some order. If you don't want to be on the wrong end of it, don't get involved.
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Without wishing to be contrary, that's ashley the wrong way round.

One should be able to protest without having to expect a kicking off the police because there are some ****ers that are just there for the ruck.

It's bordering on "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mentality, that.
 
Hacker said:
And many of the other sources quoted on this thread don't?
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no, other/most papers do.

BUT! most others at least try to have good honest journalists who don't.

Its just that the sun (along with other newspapers/tv channels owned by the "Dirty Digger" aka R. Murdoch are the creme-de-la-creme of lying for a good story (the Times newspaper and wall street journal not really included!)

And its not always a case of what "they" do right to get such a good readership. Murdoch is a good buisnessman because he knows A-How to manipulate, but more importantly B- How to turn a bad buisness around. Before he took over the sun, it was still a tabloid as it is today, but he made it profitable amongst other things!

Look at Berlesconi in Italy! He is Italy's murdoch, and he pretty much keeps winning elections with his controll of the media (and strangley makes new hair appear too:lol:)

anyway! didn't want to annoy people, just wanted to point out that the Sun manipulates way more than most!
 
AleksanderLoesch said:
no, other/most papers do.

BUT! most others at least try to have good honest journalists who don't.

Its just that the sun (along with other newspapers/tv channels owned by the "Dirty Digger" aka R. Murdoch are the creme-de-la-creme of lying for a good story (the Times newspaper and wall street journal not really included!)

And its not always a case of what "they" do right to get such a good readership. Murdoch is a good buisnessman because he knows A-How to manipulate, but more importantly B- How to turn a bad buisness around. Before he took over the sun, it was still a tabloid as it is today, but he made it profitable amongst other things!

Look at Berlesconi in Italy! He is Italy's murdoch, and he pretty much keeps winning elections with his controll of the media (and strangley makes new hair appear too:lol:)

anyway! didn't want to annoy people, just wanted to point out that the Sun manipulates way more than most!
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The Daily Mail? I mean - they need to underline some of the words in their headlines to make absolutely certain what it is their audience should think.

"All the worst people in Britain read the Daily Mail" - Chris TT
 
Myky D said:
One should be able to protest without having to expect a kicking off the police because there are some ****ers that are just there for the ruck.

It's bordering on "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mentality, that.
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Err no, not at all.

How exactly are the police to arrest trouble makers at the centre of a mob of hundreds of people, without dispersing the entire crowd? Should they have used water cannons? CS gas?
 
mid_gen said:
Err no, not at all.

How exactly are the police to arrest trouble makers at the centre of a mob of hundreds of people, without dispersing the entire crowd?
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I don't know - it's one of the reasons I didn't become a policeman.

I just know that everyone should have the right to protest peacefully without expecting a kicking off the police.

That troublemakers stir up trouble is not my problem. I should not have to justify my right to or indeed my protest as long as its peaceful.

I know it's a difficult job for the police, but that's why they're paid.

Should an Irishman have to expect trouble from customs because of the IRA? Should a muslim expect trouble from - well - everyone at the moment - because of July 7th? No. Likewise peaceful protesters shouldn't have to expect trouble from the police because of troublemakers.

Look at the fuss about photographers getting grief because terrorists might take pictures. Same principle.
 
I was at Canning town this morning & wondered why there was so many Police :)

There were quite a few DSLRs about but didn't notice any TPF straps etc, some of the press phtographers had hard-hats with them incase it kicked off :D
 
Hacker said:
And many of the other sources quoted on this thread don't?
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Talking of different spins ...

Police said the man, thought to be in his 40s, died on Wednesday evening after bottles were thrown at him and he collapsed.
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BBC

Jasper Jackson, 23, from London, who photographed the man's collapse, said he had been standing in front of a line of police dog handlers minutes before he fell over. "The picture I have of him is of him stumbling in front of the protesters and in front of the police dogs looking dazed," he said. "He had a glazed look on his face. Then it was drawn to my attention that somebody shouted to the police with a loud hailer that there was a casualty and said, 'Can we get a medic?' "

Jackson said the man was then surrounded by police officers who were pelted with at least one missile.

"There were a couple of people throwing bottles in that general direction," said Jackson. "But they were told to stop doing that by the crowd. In fact, some people in the crowd threatened to kill them if they did anything to disrupt the treatment."
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Another witness, Fran Legg, said she and a friend had rushed to help the man after they realised he was not well. "People were calling out: 'Please, we need medics over here'," said the 20-year-old student, from Tavistock, in Devon. "Someone called an ambulance." Her friend put the man in the recovery position and noticed he had blood on his face and was losing consciousness.

Legg said protesters were calling for people to move back and give the man space as eight police officers arrived. By the time the ambulance reached the scene 10 minutes later, the man was very white and could hardly breath.

Elias Stoakes, 25, also a student at Queen Mary, from Exeter in Devon, said: "There were a lot of people around him trying to help him and asking for medics.

"One or maybe two plastic bottles were thrown, but it was by people further back in the crowd who did not know what was going on. There definitely wasn't a rain of bottles
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Guardian
 
Myky D said:
I just know that everyone should have the right to protest peacefully without expecting a kicking off the police.

That troublemakers stir up trouble is not my problem. I should not have to justify my right to or indeed my protest as long as its peaceful.
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You do entirely have the right to peaceful protest....but when that protest turns violent as it did yesterday, then it is reasonable to expect the police to react with force.

Everyone who was in London knew that violence was likely, they took their chance.

Not that police should have carte blanche to put the boot in, but when protests turn violent there will be clashes with the police and there will be injuries. Price you pay for making the choice to be there.
 
mid_gen said:
You do entirely have the right to peaceful protest....but when that protest turns violent as it did yesterday, then it is reasonable to expect the police to react with force.

Everyone who was in London knew that violence was likely, they took their chance.

Not that police should have carte blanche to put the boot in, but when protests turn violent there will be clashes with the police and there will be injuries. Price you pay for making the choice to be there.
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So, by the same token, presumably you don't mind a bit of heavy-handed treatment off security guards and the police when you're out snapping in town, because - y'know - it's the price you pay for being a photographer in a time when terrorism is the watchword of the day ... ?
 
Myky D said:
The Daily Mail? I mean - they need to underline some of the words in their headlines to make absolutely certain what it is their audience should think.

"All the worst people in Britain read the Daily Mail" - Chris TT
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:lol::lol::lol:

but then, that doesn't explain Piers "Morgan" Moron.....

He claims that he doesn't read it!

but yet look at him! (well don't, you will kill yourself after having to look at him!)
 
mrgubby said:
some of the press phtographers had hard-hats with them incase it kicked off :D
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They would have been forced to by their agency becuase of heath and safety.

Newspapers rarely send their photographers to protests due to heath & safety and insurance issues. They usually leave it to the agencies.
 
Myky D said:
So, by the same token, presumably you don't mind a bit of heavy-handed treatment off security guards and the police when you're out snapping in town, because - y'know - it's the price you pay for being a photographer in a time when terrorism is the watchword of the day ... ?
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It was made very clear that the authorities were expecting organised and violent protest around the G20 summit. Everyone who went there knew that. They knew they were putting themselves in a potentially violent situation.

If I was told by the Metropolitan Police that photography would not be tolerated around town, then I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. Did I miss a memo?
 
mid_gen said:
It was made very clear that the authorities were expecting organised and violent protest around the G20 summit. Everyone who went there knew that. They knew they were putting themselves in a potentially violent situation.

If I was told by the Metropolitan Police that photography would not be tolerated around town, then I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. Did I miss a memo?
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Did we miss the memo that told us our right to photograph depends on the whims of the police?

Oh wait ...
 
I was over at the Excel centre today (or as near as I could get). There was a designated protest area but protestors were a bit thin on the ground compared to yesterday. The main event was some African folks from Ogaden protesting about getting slaughtered by Ethiopia which is a pretty good cause compared to a lot of what I saw yesterday.

Everything was very good natured and also really colourful. Lots of togs around. Also lots of police, who were without exception good humoured though clearly keeping a close eye on things. At least these protestors knew what they were protesting about which was a relief after the mish-mash of stuff on offer yesterday.

Here's 3 for you to illustrate the scene.

#1
504042632_HNRXE-M.jpg


#2
504042564_qHd2e-M.jpg


#3
504042656_wWJfe-M.jpg


Cheers

Tobers
 
Druid said:
Video of the police attacking the entirely peaceful hippies of the climate camp.

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993
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Looks very carefully edited to me, but all I really saw was police pushing the crowd back but, conveniently, nothing of what happened immediately before, ie protesters pushing against the police lines in the first place. True evidence would be an unedited video showing the transition, this is clearly not that.
 
Well, I think whacking an unarmed woman in the face with a riot shield is an attack. Maybe you don't. *shrug*

Note that the protesters are all holding their hands up to show that they're non-violent precisely to pre-empt interpretations like yours.
 
Druid said:
Well, I think whacking an unarmed woman in the face with a riot shield is an attack. Maybe you don't. *shrug*

Note that the protesters are all holding their hands up to show that they're non-violent precisely to pre-empt interpretations like yours.
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Or to make it look that way. :shrug:
 
Druid said:
Well, I think whacking an unarmed woman in the face with a riot shield is an attack. Maybe you don't. *shrug*

Note that the protesters are all holding their hands up to show that they're non-violent precisely to pre-empt interpretations like yours.
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I see and hear someone on a megaphone marshalling the protestors and telling them to put their arms in the air and push forward towards the police. It's like footballers jumping into a tackle two footed then turning to the ref with their arms in the air like they didn't do anything.

I saw one riot shield raised and hitting someone....accidental or not, it's hard to tell really. I'm sure the missiles thrown by the protestors were 'accidental' :thinking:.

This isn't coming from some right-wing lunatic. I'm staunchly libertarian and I detest the encroachment of our liberties by Jacqui sodding Smith and her mission to turn the UK into a police state.....but really. A gang of violent protestors started smashing up banks in the streets of the capital and the riot police controlled the situation. End of story.
 
The scenes shown are from the entirely peaceful climate camp, a separate protest entirely and one which was remarked on all day as a haven of peace. They even had litter collection teams organised to make sure they didn't leave a mess afterwards.

See e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7977863.stm

Until the cops decided to move it.
 
Druid said:
Video of the police attacking the entirely peaceful hippies of the climate camp.

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/983
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I've watched both of those and thought the police were remarkably restrained. The protesters had made their point and were blocking a main route into and out of the City of London which had to be cleared. I'm surprised there weren't a few more cracked heads tbh.


Druid said:
Well, I think whacking an unarmed woman in the face with a riot shield is an attack. Maybe you don't. *shrug*

Note that the protesters are all holding their hands up to show that they're non-violent precisely to pre-empt interpretations like yours.
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And do I hear you mention the guy with the dreadlocks and blue jumper trying to kick the crap out of a police officer at 1min 42secs in the first video? Nope, didn't think so.



mid_gen said:
I see and hear someone on a megaphone marshalling the protestors and telling them to put their arms in the air and push forward towards the police. It's like footballers jumping into a tackle two footed then turning to the ref with their arms in the air like they didn't do anything.

I saw one riot shield raised and hitting someone....accidental or not, it's hard to tell really. I'm sure the missiles thrown by the protestors were 'accidental' :thinking:.

This isn't coming from some right-wing lunatic. I'm staunchly libertarian and I detest the encroachment of our liberties by Jacqui sodding Smith and her mission to turn the UK into a police state.....but really. A gang of violent protestors started smashing up banks in the streets of the capital and the riot police controlled the situation. End of story.
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'Accidental' missiles! :lol:
 
Hacker said:
<snip> And do I hear you mention the guy with the dreadlocks and blue jumper trying to kick the crap out of a police officer at 1min 42secs in the first video? Nope, didn't think so.<snip>
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I'm looking, but not seeing him.

Whereabouts is he in relation to the front of the column of riot police shoving and hitting obviously non-violent hippies?

Edited to add: ah ok, I see who you mean now. I saw his jumper as black. As far as I can see he kicks a shield once and then gets told off by another protester and backs off?

Unfortunately nobody tells the cops off and they continue shoving and hitting (almost) entirely non-violent hippies ...
 
mid_gen said:
It was made very clear that the authorities were expecting organised and violent protest around the G20 summit. Everyone who went there knew that. They knew they were putting themselves in a potentially violent situation.

If I was told by the Metropolitan Police that photography would not be tolerated around town, then I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. Did I miss a memo?
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It's been made very clear that the authorities expect terrorists - who are by definition very violent - to take photos around Landan.

Therefore anyone taking photos around Landan is a potential terrorist.

I take it you're fine with that?
 
Druid said:
The scenes shown are from the entirely peaceful climate camp, a separate protest entirely and one which was remarked on all day as a haven of peace. They even had litter collection teams organised to make sure they didn't leave a mess afterwards.

See e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7977863.stm

Until the cops decided to move it.
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The scenes shown are from the entirely peaceful police line and one which was remarked on as a haven of peace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01374/g20_1374154c.jpg

Until the protesters decided to throw things at it.

:p :p :p

:lol:
 
The camera never lies? it is interesting that several people can see the same video and see different things...

it would be interesting to wonder how this protest would have panned out in China, Africa, or some other country less tolerant...

to me the police seemed too out numbered and showed restraint that you would not get in other countries. did they hit a few people - yes - were they hit - yes...
 
Two traders based in an office opposite RBS on Bishopsgate said they had walked across the City "to have a nice lunch and chill out". Sipping coffee after three courses and a few Marlboro Lights, they were angry that the police didn't seem to be making any arrests: "Its kicking off over in Bishopsgate", they said. "The demonstrators are goading the police and hitting them with sticks, but they are just letting them. They aren't arresting anyone."

And these two wanted to see the long arm of the law carting a few protesters away – because they had a financial interest in arrests. "I'll make money if they arrest more than 140", he said. Traders, he explained were putting spread bets on the number of arrests – with the quoted spread on Bloomberg at 130-140. They were also paying out on deaths and if more than 20 demonstrators are injured by horse charges.
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source
 
Myky D said:
It's been made very clear that the authorities expect terrorists - who are by definition very violent - to take photos around Landan.

Therefore anyone taking photos around Landan is a potential terrorist.

I take it you're fine with that?
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You seem to have a been in your bonnet about photography rights which I don't really think is valid to this discussion. It is a bit of a stretch to an already weak argument to compare being treated like a terrorist for taking some pictures, to being treated like a violent protestor.....for being in a group of a few hundred protestors who are smashing up a bank.
 
Tobers said:
- The police did their "pen people in" thing. I knew they would and didn't mind getting caught up in the first confinement as there was a lot to shoot, but cleared out when the crowd just shoved the police aside, and managed to avoid it again. My pal Lee got re-confined again and only got out at about 8:30pm. He must have been in there for 5 hours or so. I brought him some food & water to keep him going.
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Yep, that water and a snickers had to last me until I got to Waterloo at 10! Thanks for the supplies and thanks to the police sergeant who passed them through the cordon ;o)

Anywho, before people who weren't there speculate this discussion any further away from People Photography ;o) Here a few photos of people from inside the police line during a very long day outside the Bank of England yesterday.

1:

2:

3:

4:

5:

6:

7:

There a blog entry here with more details too.
 
mid_gen said:
You seem to have a been in your bonnet about photography rights which I don't really think is valid to this discussion. It is a bit of a stretch to an already weak argument to compare being treated like a terrorist for taking some pictures, to being treated like a violent protestor.....for being in a group of a few hundred protestors who are smashing up a bank.
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Erm ... no - it's not.

The argument is "Should one expect to be treated as a potential enemy?". It's EXACTLY the same argument.

If I go and protest, I do NOT expect to be treated as a potentially violent protestor, just as when I take photographs I do NOT expected to be treated as a potential terrorist.

See?

Yes - it is a dilemma for the police, and the blame for it lies squarely at the feet of anyone violently protesting. That does NOT mean that anyone protesting peacefully should or should have to expect to get a bit of knocking about by the police because they were in the same area at the same time.
 
Myky D said:
Yes - it is a dilemma for the police, and the blame for it lies squarely at the feet of anyone violently protesting. That does NOT mean that anyone protesting peacefully should or should have to expect to get a bit of knocking about by the police because they were in the same area at the same time.
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But what do the police do? Leave the big throng of people to smash the place up? They knowingly put themselves between violent thugs and riot police. To complain about getting hurt in such a situation is just ridiculous imo.

Anyway, I know erm...debating style....comes across very direct and inflammatory on t'internet so I shall bow out of this discussion before I get further embroiled :)
:nuts:
 
Well, I think the issue might be people conflating the relatively tiny group of protesters who actually are out for a ruck with everybody else. For example mid_gen, if I understand you right, you've repeatedly argued on the basis that the peaceful hippies in the climate camp have no right to expect not to be whacked by the cops, on the basis that some completely different people with different goals and methods smashed up a bank elsewhere.

To me that's a bit like arguing that I deserve to be arrested because my next door neighbour committed a crime. Or because I'm a scouser (near enough) and everybody knows all scousers are criminal scum. It's pretty poor logic IMO.
 
I thought it was extremely amusing yesterday when a young lady with "Freedom" written on a large banner berated me for taking her picture.

This was in the middle of a big demo with cameras all around. She actually said "you've got to ask before you take my picture", to which I suggested that actually I didn't. Then she was asking who I was, which paper I was from etc. No doubt she'd be unwilling to give me the same information.

For some reason she thought she should push for freedom but deny it for others. Completely strange, but there you go. A typical blind anti-photography view.
 
Just an observation but it seems to me that Druid you have a very strict agenda on this thread.

It's a shame really as your posts are very well constructed and literate but ultimately ignored due to your obvious bias.

I'll put my cards on the table and say I'm a copper that is obviously swaying towards the police side of the fence but you seem hell bent on portraying everyone except the protesters as some sort of evil being.

Even though I'm part of the fascist state and involved in beating these dissenters I'm still very much in favour of lawful protest and will defend their right to do so as long as I hold the office of constable. Just a shame that you write all those fascist pigs off as though all they long to do is beat lawful protesters round the head for the fun of it.

Oh and BTW Tobers, loving the pics. Keep em coming.:)
 
Well, I do have an agenda. In my mind here's what it is. I think the police are being used to suppress political dissent in a way that I consider to be a perversion of their legitimate role.

I don't think it's any part of the legitimate role of the police to try to intimidate people into not demonstrating, or to try to prevent their actions being documented by photographs for the people to see.
 
In that respect I think you have it completely wrong when looked upon the average copper.

Politics has absolutely no place in policing, in fact you'll struggle to find many coppers that support the current government let alone will police to the whim of some government minister that has absolutely no idea what the Police do every single day.

It's a real shame because politicians do seem to be able to influence the police, not the common or garden copper but the senior ranks who sadly have the final say in things like the protests.

Please just bear in mind that whatever the police do in situations such as the protests in London, they will always be the bad guys to someone. Ultimately the police are only trying to do their job but what that job is depends massively on both the public's and their masters expectations.
 
I understand that there is a difference between the senior guys who suck up to the government and set policies and the average copper on the street, but while the average copper on the street is still willing to use violence against the entirely peaceful climate camp hippies, for example, while the senior cops tell lies about the situation to the press, then I think we have a systemic failure.

I'm not quite sure what we can do about it, but I am not going to pretend it's right.
 
By way of example, about a month ago some polling was done which resulted in about a 70% majority of the British people in favour of renationalising the public utilities. Unfortunately, there is no electable political party which would be willing to carry out such a policy. So without any democratic option, the only alternative would be to demonstrate.

However, if you demonstrate, the police are going to try to cordon you off, hold you against your will for 8hrs or so while refusing you access to food, water and medical attention, and occasionally attack you with clubs and set dogs on you. Eventually, before they'll let you go they'll want to delete any shots on your camera, get your personal details and photograph you for their files. I think that's a deliberate policy intended to intimidate people into not participating in legitimate political dissent and I think that it's just wrong.
 
I saw the G20 protest on Sky news and it reminded me of a personal experience during the miner's strike in the eighties.
I was a young hothead freelance at the time.
The cops left me with a cracked shoulder blade and a smashed F3 (Luckily I had a backup) whilst my colleague Jimmy was hospitalized with head injuries and died a few years later from a brain hemorrhage.
Draw your own conclusions.
 
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