G20 Summit Next Week

Hacker said:
I've personally witnessed it when rioters have attacked the media. A very quick Google search throws this up:

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3 (photographer killed by rioters)
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the first two are isolated cases, out of the 100's of togs out there (look how many went today and were fine!)

the third one about a tog being killed had nothing to do with anarchists or anti-banker or pro-eco protests. they were RIOTS (not protest) against racism and the unfair treatment of people in a very deprived part of london. they have more in common with the "troubles" in Island than with a protest... although do I in no-way condemn such violence. still is a big-no no, and it is sad that such things do happen and people get hurt.
 
So if they are isolated incidents they don't count?

Riots are extreme protests, it doesn't matter what the cause is, people get hurt and property gets damaged.
 
Hacker said:
I've personally witnessed it when rioters have attacked the media. A very quick Google search throws this up:

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3 (photographer killed by rioters)
Click to expand...

I hope you won't think I'm picky when I point out that the first one is from a football riot and the second two are from Brixton race riots.

I'm unaware of any significant presence of anarchist/anti-capitalist protesters (which you'll recall are what we were discussing) in either case.
 
Druid said:
I hope you won't think I'm picky when I point out that the first one is from a football riot and the second two are from Brixton race riots.

I'm unaware of any significant presence of anarchist/anti-capitalist protesters (which you'll recall are what we were discussing) in either case.
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The discussion started about anarchists but then moved to photographers being attacked by police (which I still haven't seen any evidence of) whilst anarchists wouldn't dream of such a thing. ;) As I stated earlier I have witnessed attacks on the media (one was particularly vicious) by anarchists/rioters/rent a mob or whatever you want to call them.
 
Hacker said:
So if they are isolated incidents they don't count?

Riots are extreme protests, it doesn't matter what the cause is, people get hurt and property gets damaged.
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no, its not that they don't count, its just very unlikley. its even less likley to happen at an actual protest.

riots are NOT protests. riots are disorganised violent hapenings that don't have a true purpose other than to cause trouble. protests are peaceful things that are designed to allow people to get their views heard. usually there is no trouble at them, and most protesters have cameras themselves nowerdays (i would say one in 7 or 10 had them today!) and many more with mobile cameras too.

there can be issues with idiotic thugs however who think its ok to use peaceful protest as an excuse for violence against others. that is a problem that many protesters try to solve, the last thing they want is violence because:

a- it makes others think that these protesters are violent beings and the loose popularity.
b-the protest becomes disorganised and trouble begins.
c-the police start to "crack down" on the whole peacefull protest just to stop a few idiots.
d- it puts people off coming to future protests (if needed!)

all very silly really!
 
Well, let me be a bit clearer about what I was saying above then, to avoid any confusion. I was suggesting that in the particular case of these protests, in the event of it 'kicking off' the danger to photographers from police seeking to prevent pictures of them behaving violently, seemed to me to be likely to be greater than any risk from 'anarchist' anti-capitalist protesters. I also produced a recent example of a photographer being injured by police on a demonstration.

http://www.epuk.org/News/811/vallee-accepts-met-settlement
 
We're just going round in circles here. Let's just agree to disagree.
 
I think the thing to remember is:

On a protest, you do have to be more careful! There is tension on both sides, and you are as likely to get trouble as a tog from the police as you are from protesters (mainly due to confusion over why you are taking pics!) So if you do go to a protest/demo, don't go and take pics right in peoples faces unless you are sure they are happy about it!

also remember, the police now have that silly law behind them about how you are a terrorist if you start taking pics of them without permission. they are more likely to use this on togs during a protest! BUT! as long as you don't aggrevate them, they will probably leave you (and the many other togs taking pics of them) alone! (use a long zoom lens and keep a sneeky distance!)
 
Hacker said:
We're just going round in circles here. Let's just agree to disagree.
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Yup, they'll just keep trying to justify themselves. Sad really.
 
Maybe a lock then? Certainly seems to be getting a little political.

Protest a good photo op? Without a doubt. Dangerous? Totally. I think that's all that needs saying really. If you really want that hot, go for it...but watch your back!
 
well, we aren't just going round in a circle, you are too with us! so therfore you must be trying to justify too!

anyway, despite knowing where I am within this viscious circle, I do agree to disagree! (But not defeat! :lol:)
 
ChrisMClark said:
Maybe a lock then? Certainly seems to be getting a little political.

Protest a good photo op? Without a doubt. Dangerous? Totally. I think that's all that needs saying really. If you really want that hot, go for it...but watch your back!
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not dangerous. risky yes, but middle-class discontent does not automatically=broken camera/glass:(
 
a lock might just be a good idea....
 
AleksanderLoesch said:
not dangerous. risky yes, but middle-class discontent does not automatically=broken camera/glass:(
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Any protest can go bad. All it takes is a couple of pugnacious ****wits looking for a scrap and before you know what's happened someone's had their Canon shoved down their throat (possibly the best place for a Canon :p)
 
not all protests! but big major ones, much much more likely! though todays was pretty huge with no larger ammount of trouble than a smaller one... anyway, glad we are all happy:)
 
-oh and i think getting a canon shoved down my throat would still be better than where nikon togs get their gear shoved up:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
sorry, that was one truly awful wise crack....
 
If you are going to be photographing the demo then you'll have no problem from the Police unless it all goes a bit Pete Tong.

The Police will be taking as many pictures as the togs so fill your boots, however take note of the following advice.

If it starts kicking off, at no point stand between angry mob and the police or you will get bladdered with bricks, urine, petrol, heavy stuff or a combination of all these.

When the police ask you to disperse, then disperse otherwise you are committing an offence and become fair game to be moved on by force.

If a police line runs towards you then get out of the way very quickly or you will be moved out of the way with a heavy plastic shield which hurts a bit.

Police officers will have no problem with you photographing them, they will have a problem with you if they are trying to clear a street and you are standing in the way.

That's about it, just be aware of your surroundings at all times and have an escape route planned if it goes up. It's also worth remembering that the Police are often the focus for violence and aggression by the "protestors". Just find a copper and have a chat, if they've been standing there for 4 hours it'll be a welcome break, you can get some great shots and when it kicks off you can b****r off behind the police.:lol:
 
Druid said:
I hope you won't think I'm picky when I point out that the first one is from a football riot and the second two are from Brixton race riots.

I'm unaware of any significant presence of anarchist/anti-capitalist protesters (which you'll recall are what we were discussing) in either case.
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Unfortunately, it's the same idiots who turn up to both. The vast majority of people at any riot/protest are peaceful, but there will always be people who turn up just for a fight. For recent examples look at the peaceful, mainly student-led Gaza protests in January, where people were beaten and shops were smashed.

In short, no matter what the protest is about or who turns up there will always be a violent element there just looking for a fight. It does tend to be the same people as well hence the presence of FIT.

I will be at Trafalgar Square on Wednesday. I know the area very well and I'll keep my wits about me, I don't think I'll get in too much trouble.
 
POAH said:
I thought about going and throwing dog poo at the protestors
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Great idea! That would be REALLY helpful. Because, of course, it's better we bend over and take everything the government and continue down the road to a police state that we're (not so) slowly but surely turning into.

Well done! You should be applauded for your useful contribution. :cuckoo:
 
Blapto said:
Unfortunately, it's the same idiots who turn up to both. The vast majority of people at any riot/protest are peaceful, but there will always be people who turn up just for a fight. For recent examples look at the peaceful, mainly student-led Gaza protests in January, where people were beaten and shops were smashed.

In short, no matter what the protest is about or who turns up there will always be a violent element there just looking for a fight. It does tend to be the same people as well hence the presence of FIT.

I will be at Trafalgar Square on Wednesday. I know the area very well and I'll keep my wits about me, I don't think I'll get in too much trouble.
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Are they actually the same violent idiots at a football riot and an anti-capitalist protest though?

My impression is that football thugs tend to the far right, whereas anti-capitalist protesters tend to the far left and hence it's extremely unlikely that there would be a significant overlap between the two.
 
Druid said:
Are they actually the same violent idiots at a football riot and an anti-capitalist protest though?

My impression is that football thugs tend to the far right, whereas anti-capitalist protesters tend to the far left and hence it's extremely unlikely that there would be a significant overlap between the two.
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Not everybody at a protest is there to protest. The people at a protest who turn them into riots aren't there because of the cause, they're present because of the possibility of a riot.

I don't have hard facts and figures, but what I've heard from the professionals is that its the same people in a given area.
 
Blapto said:
Not everybody at a protest is there to protest. The people at a protest who turn them into riots aren't there because of the cause, they're present because of the possibility of a riot.

I don't have hard facts and figures, but what I've heard from the professionals is that its the same people in a given area.
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The same people at a football riot and an anti-capitalist protest?
 
Druid said:
Ooh scary anarchists ... :eek:

There may be a few idiots, but the worst they're going to be trying to do is a bit of property damage. The media, cops and government are hyping the 'dangerous anarchists' theme for all they're worth to get ordinary people to stay away and not bother them with unwelcome dissent. After all, it's really important to give vast amounts of our money to useless bankers with no evident benefits in return, and the public should wind its neck in and not interfere with the activities of their betters.

Most likely source of physical danger is the cops.

If it kicks off they will want to make sure that they aren't photographed beating up citizens, so they will go after photographers.
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Quoted for truth.
 
Blapto said:
It does tend to be the same people as well hence the presence of FIT.
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Maybe someone should go up to one of these FIT officers and tell them to move along as they're not allowed to photograph there :lol:
 
Druid said:
That seems extremely unlikely to me, given that football thugs tend strongly to the far right and anti-capitalist protesters tend strongly to the far left.

What are your sources?
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Yes, I know, you said that already. I've already explained the logic.

My sources are people who work in the police, in the diplomatic protection group and in the Intelligence Corps
 
Blapto said:
Yes, I know, you said that already. I've already explained the logic.

My sources are people who work in the police, in the diplomatic protection group and in the Intelligence Corps
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I see. Did I just end up on a list for being difficult? (It's a sad reflection on the state of freedom of speech in our country that I'm only half joking about that)

I just re-read your post above though, the logic bit. It sounds like you're saying that the violence primarily comes from local thugs with no interest in the politics, but who basically show up for a ruck, which is interesting if true.

It does tend to raise the question of why, if they know this to be the case, the FIT teams and so on, spend so much effort on harassing peaceful political activists and journalists though.
 
I tried to be an anarchist for a bit, but there were too many rules.

I wonder how many of the protestors that turn up will actually have anything other than a fleeting understanding of how national and international finances work.

The key thing is, there's going to be fewer protestors than go to a Man Utd game - while the govt and meeja would have us believe that we're going to be under seige for a week, basically it's going to be a few middle-class under-achieving hippies shouting "It's SO unFAIR!" and perhaps throwing a few bricks.

The blitz it ain't.

Will I be down there with my gear? I'll take it when I go to work, I always do, but I expect the excitement will be over by the time I get out.
 
welly said:
Great idea! That would be REALLY helpful. Because, of course, it's better we bend over and take everything the government and continue down the road to a police state that we're (not so) slowly but surely turning into.

Well done! You should be applauded for your useful contribution. :cuckoo:
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TBF we voted them in, you'll get the chance to vote them out. sure make your voice heard but there is no need for the violent scenes from previous G8(20) mettings.

in this case protesting not really going to do anything other than waste money.
 
POAH said:
TBF we voted them in, you'll get the chance to vote them out. sure make your voice heard but there is no need for the violent scenes from previous G8(20) mettings.

in this case protesting not really going to do anything other than waste money.
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When the only options don't represent my (and many 1000s of others) views, what can you do?

Totally agree - there is absolutely no need for violent scenes but there is need for PEACEFUL protests. And like anything, it's always the violent minority who cause problems not the peaceful majority. Protesters are not going down to London or where ever to kick off a stink. They're there to let the government know that they're not happy and when you can only vote these *******s in once every four years, there's plenty of time in between to express discontent.
 
Druid said:
I see. Did I just end up on a list for being difficult? (It's a sad reflection on the state of freedom of speech in our country that I'm only half joking about that)

I just re-read your post above though, the logic bit. It sounds like you're saying that the violence primarily comes from local thugs with no interest in the politics, but who basically show up for a ruck, which is interesting if true.

It does tend to raise the question of why, if they know this to be the case, the FIT teams and so on, spend so much effort on harassing peaceful political activists and journalists though.
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Trust me, if I could put people down on Ze List, yours would be nowhere near the top.

I don't actually know anybody in FIT, but at a guess peaceful political activists are probably linked to not so peaceful political activists. As for journalists I couldn't say.
 
It is a puzzle though, you might almost think that the police deem it their duty to use any methods that the increasing latitude they've been given legally allows, and then some, to strongly discourage members of the public from involvment in protest (however non-violent) and to discourage journalists from reporting on those protests which do occur.

Here's some video of a FIT team in action http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/mar/06/police-surveillance-climate-camp-journalists note the officer commenting to his colleague about 3/4 of the way through that the free movement of the ITN team in and out of the protest area is 'just wrong' ... it'd be interesting to know what the thinking behind that is.

Here's the NUJ's submission to a parliamentary committee on the subject of FIT team and other police harassment of journalists filming protests.

http://www.nuj.org.uk/innerPagenuj.html?docid=947

The video at the bottom is quite interesting too. Sounds like it's something that's intensified greatly over the last year or so, at least from the journos' point of view.

In its report the parliamentary committee said: “It is unacceptable that individual journalists are left with no option but to take court action against officers who unlawfully interfere with their work.

"Journalists have the right to carry out their lawful business and report the way in which demonstrations are handled by the police without state interference, unless such interference is necessary and proportionate, and journalists need to be confident that they can carry out their role.

"The public in turn have the right to impart and receive information: the media are the eyes and ears of the public, helping to ensure that the police are accountable to the people they serve.
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source
 
I have tried to stay out of this one....but just can’t resist.

I like the idea of protest. We should have the right to march on parliament to air our grievances. We should be listened to both at the voting station AND any subsequent matters which need addressing.

I think, on the whole, the way the UK 'protests' is generally the right way. We don’t set fire to lorry loads of sheep like the French so all in all I think the UK police get off lightly.

Has anyone else noticed that the majority of press coverage has been from the policing side about how they are readying themselves for the ruck of the century yet there has been hardly any coverage of the groups and their opinions / aims.

Seems to me like the mets press office is upping the anti and possibly going to make matters worse for themselves.

There will always be the so called trouble element. You will never get away from them as to who they are, well, to describe them as a bunch of dreadlocked crusties is a bit daft. They will be made up from all walks of life.

Take the hunting marches. You had all sorts, yet when it kicked off it was the general law abiding citizens that felt so passionately and weren’t listened to. It took a peaceful march and some serious police intimidation to turn them into so called thugs and crims.

Let’s face it; the government has run the country into the ground. BUT, no one put a gun to the heads of those people forcing them to take out major loans, credit cards and mortgages tat hey couldn’t afford.

So while we blame the government (which we voted in), the bankers for lending money, the estate agents for selling houses, the water companies for doing what companies do and maximising profits, the FSA for not overseeing the banks, OFGEm, OFCOm and every other oversight body...lets also take an inward look at ourselves for allowing this to happen. Its time we took responsibility for our own actions and stopped passing the blame.

Bring on the March / protest. It’s the only way the governments will take notice.

But do it right!!

And for those that are going to take photos, im enviouse, theres going to tbe some great shots to be had, but stay safe!
 
A couple of facts:

A: There is no freedom of speech. You can test this theory with ease by repeatedly verbally insulting people larger than you.

B: A frightened population is a controlable population. People need to be kept in a constant state of low fear in order to herd them. This is actually for their own good - without control and herding there will be anarchy, the strong will start ruling the weak, and the whole process will start again.

C: The chance to be righteous can - and often does - blind. CF history in its entirety. The Anti Nazi League is a fine example of this: "Freedom of speech ... except for them."
 
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