Full Frame----You glad you made the move?

It is wrong to assume that full frame means "larger pixel sites" It might just mean "more of the same"

Yup - as I said, the D800 is about the same density as the 60D.
And my 5DII is the same density as my old 20D.

When I got my 5DII I did some interesting comparisons by cropping the 5DII to match the 20D.
At ISO 100 there was very little difference.
 
Am i right in saying if you go FF then you can only use EF lenses?
 
Yes or equivelent third party lens manufactures version of it, I understand you should not even try using a EF-S lens on a FF cause i could damage the body.
 
So, if i was looking to go full frame in the future i should make sure any lens i get now is an EF lens? These will work fine with a cropped sensor body but be ready for when i go FF?
 
If you're not keen on having to sell them, then yes.
 
I have had my 5D for about a year & loved it,but now after buying the new Canon G1X i have sold a few of my big lenses & not sure if i will get rid of my 5D now & settle with the G1X.:shrug::)
 
I only have a 5D, but love it to bits. I thought it was a absolute bargain compared to getting a new crop camera. I really enjoy the DOF you get with it using primes.
 
I only have a 5D, but love it to bits. I thought it was a absolute bargain compared to getting a new crop camera. I really enjoy the DOF you get with it using primes.

What lenses do you use?
 
In answer to the original question:

Yes, I'm glad I moved to FF, I think it's improved my photography, but hard to tell 'cos the new camera is so much better than the old one - any improvement may just be down to a better camera rather than a better photographer! Shots are definitely better though, I love the feel and handling of a bigger camera, and wish I'd gone this route from day 1. Only downside is having to sell EF-S lenses and re-equip, although I've now been able to upgrade to nearly all L-series lenses. Feels good!

Steve
 
I must admit to wondering where the Nikon Aperture values have been quoted from.
The often quoted rule of thumb for a diffraction limited print size of only 10"x8" is f20 full frame and f16 crop. Using a smaller apertures will visibly degrade the quality of a 10"x8" print.
To produce a critically sharp A3 print you need considerably bigger apertures (couldn't find the exact values with a quick Google). My personal rule of thumb is that unless I have a creative reason for doing otherwise (like needing more DoF in a landscape or less DoF in a portrait) I'll use f5.6 to f8.

Here's an interesting chart.
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-50D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx
This shows the aperture needed to get sharpness at the pixel level. The kind of biting sharpness that you get when you think the zoom button has broken because it won't take you in far enough.
I believe your D800 has similar pixel density to the 60D - hence to get an image that looks sharp at the pixel level you need to be using f6.9, anything smaller will be blurring the pixels. :|

Cue people pointing out that aiming to get images sharp right down to the pixel level is a pointless exercise; they have a point. But hey, it's a D800 and its purpose in life is huge pixel count.
However, taking critically sharp images is hard to beat as a benchmark for improving camera technique. EVERYTHING affects sharpness, not just aperture. You need perfect technique including decent glass, cable release (or self timer), tripod, mirror lock up (or live view), base ISO and perfect exposure. The slightest mistake will show.
Once you are confident you CAN take critically sharp images, you know the compromises you are making when taking 'normal' shots and how significant those compromises are.
If you are only taking to print at A3, you can get away with murder - even though you are wasting all those lush pixels.

As for solving the depth of field problem in landscapes....
I invested in a Tilt Shift lens - From experience I know that half a degree of down tilt allows me to take a standing hand held image, portrait format with the horizon on the top third and everything will be critically sharp from my feet to the horizon, even at f3.5. Aperture is only used to give depth to the plane of focus! It probably made a bigger difference to image quality in my landscape images than upgrading to the 5DII.

Do I get a prize for the most rambling response of the day :D:D:D

Sometimes you can have too much theory and without a thorough understanding of all the issues it's easy to get blinded by science.

One common misunderstanding (and I don't mean you personally ;)) is that sharpness is primarily about pixels when in practise it's much more about lenses and image contrast. Not to mention the techniques essential to optimise image quality. For example, when you see a nice crisp image on your computer screen, just how many dots are you seeing? It will be between two and three million max, for an A4 image.

And I have very little time for this pixel-related diffraction stuff that is 100% theory only, and assumes a perfect lens. Perfect lenses do not exist and most of them are miles off.

Landscape is one of the few subjects where you often want critical corner to corner sharpness, and with the majority of lenses if you look in the corners sharpness will be way down on the centre. Diffraction only puts a theoretical cap on sharpness, and it only applies when the imaging system as a whole is capable of exceeding it. Check the corner sharpness of anything but the very best lenses (basically high grade primes) and you'll find sharpness continues to improve way above the stated diffraction limit, often up to f/11 or even f/16 in some cases, even though diffraction will be degrading sharpness in the centre at these apertures, the overall image quality will probably still be better at these higher f/numbers.

You are going the right way with a tilt & shift lens, but even they are not immune to corner sharpess issues and the moment you tilt or shift them, by definition you are moving progressively further towards the edges/corners of the projected image circle.

PS I can ramble too :D
 
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You are going the right way with a tilt & shift lens, but even they are not immune to corner sharpess issues and the moment you tilt or shift them, by definition you are moving progressively further towards the edges/corners of the projected image circle.

PS I can ramble too :D

LOL - I 'think' we are in broad agreement....
You've read my posts before and know I'm firmly in the 'take to print at A3' camp.
And if you've spotted any of my recent posts then you will also know I'm currently taking most of my shots at shallow DoF; sharpness is definitely over-rated!

However, I learned a huge amount from my pixel peeping and it is a valid way of improving technique. There's nothing subjective about it - it's either sharp, or it's not!
Now I've been through that pain and know where I'm making image quality compromises and how big those compromises are.
It's an approach that has worked for me.

Regards the tilt and shift - On my Canon 24mm TSE you get problems with corner sharpness when used as a straight lens too!
This is because unlike most lenses, the plane of focus is not a plane, it is a sphere.
Hence a perfectly focussed image centre will often have soft corners; a tweak is required to get both the centre and corners looking acceptably sharp at the same time.
I've also spotted the same 'problem' with some wide angle lenses, but not as pronounced as the TSE.
 
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Loving my move to full frame to be honest. Really like the fact that whatever focal length I use on the lens is exactly the same as the camera, making lens choices far more simple. The bokeh and DOF control using full frame are probably the best things about it as I ilke to really play with these two things, making it ideal for me. The great ISO performance is also a massive plus as it means I can go out in the evening into woodland and still take superb photos of plants and flowers, regardless of conditions. Couldn't do that before.
 
I am glad I moved into full frame (I now have 3 FF bodies), however I see it differently, my heart never left, I didn't move into full frame, more like I gone BACK into it.

Same here. It's more about the way of seeing and the 'look' of the pictures than any nonsense about IQ for me.
 
James J said:
Really like the fact that whatever focal length I use on the lens is exactly the same as the camera, making lens choices far more simple.

Makes no sense. Focal length is the same whatever camera you use. Lens selection is no harder on crop than it is 35mm.

The only slight issue you face is that by using a lens that provides 36x24 coverage on a crop is that you have a heavier/bigger than you need, and I don't personally find that issue.
 
LOL - I 'think' we are in broad agreement....
You've read my posts before and know I'm firmly in the 'take to print at A3' camp.
And if you've spotted any of my recent posts then you will also know I'm currently taking most of my shots at shallow DoF; sharpness is definitely over-rated!

However, I learned a huge amount from my pixel peeping and it is a valid way of improving technique. There's nothing subjective about it - it's either sharp, or it's not!
Now I've been through that pain and know where I'm making image quality compromises and how big those compromises are.
It's an approach that has worked for me.

Regards the tilt and shift - On my Canon 24mm TSE you get problems with corner sharpness when used as a straight lens too!
This is because unlike most lenses, the plane of focus is not a plane, it is a sphere.
Hence a perfectly focussed image centre will often have soft corners; a tweak is required to get both the centre and corners looking acceptably sharp at the same time.
I've also spotted the same 'problem' with some wide angle lenses, but not as pronounced as the TSE.

O/T Not true. You shouldn't believe all the stuff you read on the web LOL :D Even from websites that should know better.

If this was true, tilting the lens would not move the plane of focus at all ;) A T&S lens must have a flat field to do what it does.
 
Used a 5D2 but for what I use digital for the 7D is better. If I want really big pictures then out comes the rolleiflex- 6x6 magic! ;)
 
Well it sure acts like a spherical plane of focus...

Don't want to take the thread off topic, but since you've got one it's v easy to try.

If the lens had a spherical field, when you tilted it the plane of focus would not move but simply rotate around its own axis.
 
I wish you lot would pack it in - I'm getting all itchy about wanting to go Full Frame....

'er indoors who must be obeyed had given me the green light to buy a new lens as I've pummelled her into submission but the way it's going I'm thinking about a 5Dc body if I can find one at the right price. :lol:
 
menthel said:
Used a 5D2 but for what I use digital for the 7D is better. If I want really big pictures then out comes the rolleiflex- 6x6 magic! ;)

Now that is something I'd like to look at Jim - next time you're up/we come down!

Still hankering after a full frame Nikon d700/d800. But the boss will have a lot to say about that. Especially as more investment in lenses/computer equipment with the d800 would be needed!
 
As for solving the depth of field problem in landscapes....
I invested in a Tilt Shift lens - From experience I know that half a degree of down tilt allows me to take a standing hand held image, portrait format with the horizon on the top third and everything will be critically sharp from my feet to the horizon, even at f3.5.

Would this apply to non TS/PC lenses? That is, if I tilted my Zeiss 18 or 24-70 down so the horizon is on the top 3rd I would get the same effect? Or is it canelled out because the sensor will also be tilted?
 
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Now that is something I'd like to look at Jim - next time you're up/we come down!

Still hankering after a full frame Nikon d700/d800. But the boss will have a lot to say about that. Especially as more investment in lenses/computer equipment with the d800 would be needed!

I think we are up at some point in July (end of) so will bring it with me! ;)
 
menthel said:
I think we are up at some point in July (end of) so will bring it with me! ;)

Great! You got any pics on your Flickr with it. There's something so very lovely looking about that camera!
 
Would this apply to non TS/PC lenses? That is, if I tilted my Zeiss 18 or 24-70 down so the horizon is on the top 3rd I would get the same effect?

No. Google tilt & shift lenses and the Scheimpflug principle.

You get a lot more usuable DoF with a t&s, and you can also rotate the plane of sharpness and put it at different angles. Also, using reverse-Scheimpflug gives very shallow DoF, even at higher f/numbers. Plus you can correct converging verticals etc, lots of different creative effects.
 
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Sir SR said:
Great! You got any pics on your Flickr with it. There's something so very lovely looking about that camera!

Look for anything square!
 
That's it I've ordered a 5d mark ii, coming tomorrow can't bloody wait.

You lot haven't helped! Lol
 
e902717 said:
That's it I've ordered a 5d mark ii, coming tomorrow can't bloody wait.

You lot haven't helped! Lol

Wow, enjoy :)
 
Full frame.

You glad you made the move?

Yes, definitely! Images just shine, even from my trusty old 5D :) I much prefer the output from the 5D than the 60D.

Has it improved your photography?

No.

Has it given you better shots?

Yes, subjectively I feel the quality is better than that of a crop sensor camera. And high ISO is much nicer to look at :)

Overall impression?

I absolutely love my 5D, the images sparkle. It's hard to describe, but the image quality is just something else.
 
5D would be my choice due to finances etc. Maybe in a years time!! lol
 
redddraggon said:
Makes no sense. Focal length is the same whatever camera you use. Lens selection is no harder on crop than it is 35mm.

The only slight issue you face is that by using a lens that provides 36x24 coverage on a crop is that you have a heavier/bigger than you need, and I don't personally find that issue.

Whether its focal length or field of view that James meant, it's clear what he was saying.

A 50mm lens on a cropper will give a similar field of view to an 85mm lens on full frame. So the lens acts as it would 'in old money' as far as focal length to field of view goes.
 
I've just bought a d700 and sigma 24-70 f2. 8 instead of my d300s, hopefully I'll love the d700! Wanted the nikon 24-70 2.8 but that'll have to wait!
 
With my D700 iso performance, DOF and colours are better than on my D90 however for very close up macro or when any significant cropping is needed the D90 for me wins hands down. If I'm using the D700 & D90 simultaneously and after close ups I'll always stick the telephoto on the D90 as the equivalent crop on the D700 won't be as good.

If the D700 were 18 mega pixels I probably wouldn't touch the D90 ever again.
 
There is just something about it that I never got with a cropped sensor.

5Dii/85@1.2


5Diii/50@1.4
 
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With my D700 iso performance, DOF and colours are better than on my D90 however for very close up macro or when any significant cropping is needed the D90 for me wins hands down. If I'm using the D700 & D90 simultaneously and after close ups I'll always stick the telephoto on the D90 as the equivalent crop on the D700 won't be as good.

If the D700 were 18 mega pixels I probably wouldn't touch the D90 ever again.

I find all these arguments amusing. DOF is no better or worse on any camera back. It is just that the "equivalent focal length" changes

You can get amazing DOF with a 400MM on a crop at the right distance

There is an article here that explains it, the comments are interesting too

http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/field_reports/full_frame_vs_crop_sensor_-.html
 
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