Full frame upgrade - 5D3 or d810?

[Swanseajack]

they say the same thing about the sensor in the 5DS/R ... but unless you are into pixel peeping its a bit of a myth - EoD the higher resolution the sensor is the more detailit records and thus the more it is suceptible to showing focus errors or camera shake and other sloppy practice... but it certainly doesnt mean you can't take a sharp shot with one if you know what you are doing

I think some of the comments for the D800 at the release time, was due to owners coming from the D700, which is 12mp IIRC and the jump to 36MP was possibly more evident? 24mp is more common now and not such a jump for a lot of people!

 

[Scirocco_09]

I haven't used the Canon, but I shot for a year with a work D810 for landscape with a Tamron 24-70mm VC and Nikon 70-200mm VR (not the VRII) and the image quality was spectacular, crystal clear with no need for sharpening. The level of shadow/highlight recovery is astonishing, you can get away without grad filters in most situations. It's a superb camera but it is very heavy. I don't know how the weight compares to the Canon and how much that would bother you. I still use the D810 for portrait and event, it excels there too but it's a camera built for the outdoors in my opinion

 

[Scirocco_09]

Also the D750's a very fine camera too, I have one now which I use purely for landscape. It's a great all rounder - possibly best suited to portrait and event but my landscapes haven't become any worse since switching from the D810. The D750's high ISO performance is slightly better than the D810 and the camera is lighter and less tiring to use, plus you can share images instantly with built in wifi, which means it's very well suited to event photography. The only thing you possibly lose over the D810 is the ultra fine detail at 100%, but that's never something that will bother you if you actually print your images, the difference is very small and picture quality is still exceptional (again you should have no need to sharpen). The camera is a lot more affordable than the D810 and still has the same fantastic dynamic range. It's possibly the best full frame DSLR on the market, pound for pound. So if you do want to save some money to invest in lenses I can thoroughly recommend it. As for lenses, a 24-70mm and a 70-200mm should cover you. As to which type, IMO the Tamron 24-70 f2.8 VC is better than the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR (less distortion and sharper, the Nikon is disappointingly soft), and take your pick between the Nikon 70-200mm f2.8 VR and VRII - both superb. The original VR is a bit softer in the corners than the new model but I liked that effect, the VRII is pin sharp all over but doesn't focus as close. On balance I'd save a few pounds with the original version. Hope that helps in some way!

PS - I also don't understand this myth that the D810 is an unforgiving camera, maybe I have good technique but I never had any sharpness issues switching to it if from a 16mp camera

 

[anibap]

I am Nikon user for 10 years now, and have a similar liking of photography lie you Portraits and landscape and bit of city and street.

I will only say this - go and feel both cameras in hand and see which one you like to hold and shoot in terms of convenience. This is what you'd have to go through all the time in regular shooting.

Next - based on your need see which system offers the best lenses for what you need to your budget. You specify portrait and landscape and both systems offer great lenses of equivalent focal lengths.

For Nikon, the 85 F1.8G is the best value portrait lens and if you want a 70-200 2.8, you can have the Nikon VR and VRII (best for Nikon system) version or the Tamron 70-200 2.8 I have and love. Note that both Nikon 70-200 2.8 VRII and the Tamron suffer from focus breathing and they are actually around 135mm to 150mm max at close focus distance. For landscape you have 18-35 G or 16-35 F4.

On Canon side, the 70-200 Mark II L IS lens is the best 70-200 lens in the whole market. Does not focus breath and has the best built. For portraits, I am not sure which is the best value budget lens, but if you can stretch your budget, they have the 85 F1.2 L - The best 85 mm lens one can buy today. It is slow to focus, but when shooting portraits, no one is running away and that lens produces some of the best portraits. For landscape Canon has more options I think including the same types in Nikon.

People do talk about DR advantage on Nikon which is true, but there are hundreds of fantastic togs who shoot Canon and make a living. All that matters is knowing how to use the camera to its strengths.

 

[Morph3ous]

Thanks for the replies. I've not got to the shop yet to have a feel of all the cameras, but after doing a bit more reading I think realistically it'll be 5D3 vs d750. I think I'm being too drawn into the 36mp, sharpness and recovery that sensor offers as I'm too prone to pixel peeping, but realistically I don't think I need the d810 and I don't have the funds to give it the quality glass it deserves.
If I stay Canon I keep the 70-200 F4IS and 50 1.8, then see what lenses I need to add later down the line. I like primes, and will need a landscape lens, so my initial thoughts are 16-35mm and 85mm being added.
If I go d750 then selling the Canon lenses should give me around £2000 to play with in total inc savings. Take away roughly £1000 for a good quality 2nd hand body, and I have money for a couple of half decent lenses. I'd like a wide zoom, and either a couple of primes, or a prime and a longer zoom. I don't know the values of Nikon lenses well enough yet to know what I could afford.

 

[Scirocco_09]

Don't forget a 70-200mm can be a great landscape lens as well, especially if you head into the hills. I've shot landscapes exclusively with this and a a 24-70mm for two years, it's such a versatile combination which works great for both landscape and portrait. I'm only now starting to think I'll add a 16-35mm to freshen things up, but an ultra wide lens is by no means essential for landscape

 

[snerkler]

Thanks for the replies. I've not got to the shop yet to have a feel of all the cameras, but after doing a bit more reading I think realistically it'll be 5D3 vs d750. I think I'm being too drawn into the 36mp, sharpness and recovery that sensor offers as I'm too prone to pixel peeping, but realistically I don't think I need the d810 and I don't have the funds to give it the quality glass it deserves.
If I stay Canon I keep the 70-200 F4IS and 50 1.8, then see what lenses I need to add later down the line. I like primes, and will need a landscape lens, so my initial thoughts are 16-35mm and 85mm being added.
If I go d750 then selling the Canon lenses should give me around £2000 to play with in total inc savings. Take away roughly £1000 for a good quality 2nd hand body, and I have money for a couple of half decent lenses. I'd like a wide zoom, and either a couple of primes, or a prime and a longer zoom. I don't know the values of Nikon lenses well enough yet to know what I could afford.

Just to make you question your decision again, one other thing to note is that the D750 has an aa filter whereas the D810 doesn't so the D810 will be sharper SOOC. That being said I've no issues whatsoever with the sharpness from my D750

As for lenses I'd throw the 18-35mm G into the mix instead of the 16-35mm. Cheaper, lighter and actually a smidge sharper than the 16-35mm

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compa...mm-f-4G-ED-VR-on-Nikon-D750__1094_975_373_975

 

[Sandokan]

IMHO you are concentrating on the wrong things. Most mportant is, imagine if every day you had the choice of a Sony, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Fuji ... Upto Leica, Hasselblad. Which camera would you like to pick up and use? It is all about which camera fits in your hands, your fingers automatically move the wheels in the right way and each button does what you want it to do. Ergonomics.

Second., your 50/1.8 on an APSC is equivalent to an 85/2.8 on FF. if that is what you like than an 85/1.8 will satisfy and a 50 would be too wide. Quite frankly, you should consider going wide - the interaction with people is very different and you get more of the background context into the frame.

If you wait, the 5D3 will drop another few hundred when the 4 is released and all the gear heads switch.

Viable cameras for you - all of them! Including 750D, Pentax K1- which if I was starting out new is the one i would buy. The sensor shifting sensor for B&W might possibly be awesome as it capture all colours at each pixel. And the K1 new is in your price bracket. Check out the camera store review of it.

View: https://youtu.be/87yGmD71nyA

 

[odd jim]

IMHO you are concentrating on the wrong things. Most mportant is, imagine if every day you had the choice of a Sony, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Fuji ... Upto Leica, Hasselblad. Which camera would you like to pick up and use? It is all about which camera fits in your hands, your fingers automatically move the wheels in the right way and each button does what you want it to do. Ergonomics.

Second., your 50/1.8 on an APSC is equivalent to an 85/2.8 on FF. if that is what you like than an 85/1.8 will satisfy and a 50 would be too wide. Quite frankly, you should consider going wide - the interaction with people is very different and you get more of the background context into the frame.

If you wait, the 5D3 will drop another few hundred when the 4 is released and all the gear heads switch.

Viable cameras for you - all of them! Including 750D, Pentax K1- which if I was starting out new is the one i would buy. The sensor shifting sensor for B&W might possibly be awesome as it capture all colours at each pixel. And the K1 new is in your price bracket. Check out the camera store review of it.

View: https://youtu.be/87yGmD71nyA

An f/1.8 on a crop isn't the equivalent to 2.8, it's still f/1.8. This doesn't change with crop factor.

The amount of light coming through is the same and the amount of the frame *in focus* is the same, it's only the field of view that changes (gets cropped).

 

[UKmitch86]

An f/1.8 on a crop isn't 2.8, it's still f/1.8. This doesn't change with crop factor.

The amount of light coming through is the same and the amount of the frame *in focus* is the same, it's only the field of view that changes (gets cropped).

He/She's referring to relative depth of field on the crop sensor. Don't worry, I did a double take when reading it too.

 

[Morph3ous]

I agree with you about the ergonomics. That's why I want to go and have a play before making a decision. I may very well be put off by the layout and feel of the Nikons altogether and settle on the 5D. I've not decided yet.

One thing playing on my mind is that all reviews mark the d750 better than the 5D3. It's newer and its roughly £400 cheaper. It's hard to go 5D3, UNLESS...I don't like how the Nikon feels.

 

[odd jim]

He/She's referring to relative depth of field on the crop sensor. Don't worry, I did a double take when reading it too.

Yes probably, as the FF image carries on past the cropped areas of the APSC camera and the blur increases in severity towards the extremities.

I always considered depth of field to be the areas of the image in focus though (as it refers to the effective focus range, which doesn't change between FF and crop with the same lens), I'm guessing we don't all see it like that, some see it as the entire image?

 

[snerkler]

I agree with you about the ergonomics. That's why I want to go and have a play before making a decision. I may very well be put off by the layout and feel of the Nikons altogether and settle on the 5D. I've not decided yet.

One thing playing on my mind is that all reviews mark the d750 better than the 5D3. It's newer and its roughly £400 cheaper. It's hard to go 5D3, UNLESS...I don't like how the Nikon feels.

Ergonomically the D750 is Nikon's best imo. Of course YMMV.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

Just to make you question your decision again, one other thing to note is that the D750 has an aa filter whereas the D810 doesn't so the D810 will be sharper SOOC. That being said I've no issues whatsoever with the sharpness from my D750

As for lenses I'd throw the 18-35mm G into the mix instead of the 16-35mm. Cheaper, lighter and actually a smidge sharper than the 16-35mm

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compa...mm-f-4G-ED-VR-on-Nikon-D750__1094_975_373_975

I second that re the 18-35g,just bought one and finding it a really nice lens.

 

[StewartR]

Hmm. Over 50 posts and nobody's brought this up. You love your 70-200 on a crop sensor. So what will you use if/when you move to full frame? You can replace your 50 prime with an 85 prime, but what about the zoom?

 

[Sandokan]

An f/1.8 on a crop isn't the equivalent to 2.8, it's still f/1.8. This doesn't change with crop factor.

The amount of light coming through is the same and the amount of the frame *in focus* is the same, it's only the field of view that changes (gets cropped).

Yes. Sorry. I was referring to the relative depths of field of one lens on an APS-C sensor body and of a lens with equivalent field of view (50 on C is almost the same as an 85 on a FF) on a FF body and which aperture would have a similar depth of field.

 

[Morph3ous]

Hmm. Over 50 posts and nobody's brought this up. You love your 70-200 on a crop sensor. So what will you use if/when you move to full frame? You can replace your 50 prime with an 85 prime, but what about the zoom?

Sorry mate, there's been a misunderstanding somewhere. I love it because its a great lens and produces love.y images. Its not the focal length (on the crop sensor) that I love. The 70-200 accounts for less than 10% of the images I have in LR.

 

[Morph3ous]

I've just been to WEX and had a good hands on with both the d750, d810 and another look at the 5D3 although i've played with it a few times before.

All I can say is that I'm so pleased I have because I absolutely love the d750! I can't believe how much I liked it and how in my opinion it knocked spots off the 5D3. Really showed up the age of the Canon if I'm honest.

They were really good in there and let me use the 85mm 1.8G on both Nikon bodies and it felt like a combo I'd use a lot. Coming from the 50mm on a Canon crop sensor I felt at home with the 85. I took my 14 month old with me and it allowed a nice opportunity to try the d750 out as she ran towards me in store. The 85 was set at f2, continuous shooting, servo focus and it nailed a series of 5 images. I was sold there and then. Considering I'd only used it for 5 minutes I managed to move the focus points up towards her head and away I went, with her face perfectly in focus in each image.

So i'm now in the market for a d750 and a few lenses

Thanks to everyone for their help.

 

[Sandokan]

Hate to say it but wait. I think prices may drop around Photokina. The 750 is getting long in the tooth by Nikon standards. I certainly am waiting but i do have other systems till then.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Thanks for the advice [emoji4]
I'm going into WEX tomorrow. They've conformed today they've got a d810 on display as well as the 5D3 and although I didn't ask I'm assuming the d750 is there too. I'm going to take an SD card with me and switch it between cameras firing off a few shots. I might take my 50mm with me too to try on the 5D3. This way I can get an idea of how they all feel (I've played with the 5D many times) and I can then compare some shots at home. Treat them as I would my own images and see how the files make me feel when put through Lightroom.

If not, I'm in Norwich if you want a play with a D750, would be happy to meet up.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I've just been to WEX and had a good hands on with both the d750, d810 and another look at the 5D3 although i've played with it a few times before.

All I can say is that I'm so pleased I have because I absolutely love the d750! I can't believe how much I liked it and how in my opinion it knocked spots off the 5D3. Really showed up the age of the Canon if I'm honest.

They were really good in there and let me use the 85mm 1.8G on both Nikon bodies and it felt like a combo I'd use a lot. Coming from the 50mm on a Canon crop sensor I felt at home with the 85. I took my 14 month old with me and it allowed a nice opportunity to try the d750 out as she ran towards me in store. The 85 was set at f2, continuous shooting, servo focus and it nailed a series of 5 images. I was sold there and then. Considering I'd only used it for 5 minutes I managed to move the focus points up towards her head and away I went, with her face perfectly in focus in each image.

So i'm now in the market for a d750 and a few lenses

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Ignore my last post then lol

They are astounding cameras, the price just makes them even better!

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

There are a few 50mm lenses from Nikon,

1.8D £110
1.8G £170
1.4D £170 s/h
1.4G £350

aaaaaand for good measure
58mm 1.4G £1349


70-200 there's

70-200 2.8 VR1 £8-900 s/h (i think)
70-200 2.8 VR2 £1800 New (there is also a cashback of £150 atm)
70-200 f4 VR £1000ish New

They also do some older zooms such as:
80-200 2.8 (various versions ranging £300-600 ish I think)
70-210 f4 (£100-150ish)
70-210 4-5.6 (£50-100ish)

Shorter zooms

35-70 2.8
28-70 2.8
24-70 2.8
24-70 2.8 VR
24-120 f4 VR
24-120 3.5-4.5 VR
24-85 3.5-4.5 VR


There's probably loads i've missed off Obviously, there's 3rd party versions for all of those lenses but they make them for Canon too so you may already know about them!

The 58 is awesome though

 

[mjamil81]

or you can buy used 3ds

 

[snerkler]

Hate to say it but wait. I think prices may drop around Photokina. The 750 is getting long in the tooth by Nikon standards. I certainly am waiting but i do have other systems till then.

Based on Nikon's usual schedule there should be replacements for both the D810 and D750 this year, but as we know they've been severely crippled by the earthquakes and so it wouldn't surprise me if it causes a significant delay on the release of these. They might announce something, but with a lengthy wait like they did with the DLs (which have been pushed back even further).

There'll always be something 'just around the corner' though

 

[Sandokan]

What i like about waiting for the corner, is to get the older item (brand new) for less than folk were selling it second hand. . Like my GX7 which dropped from $1000 to $500. however, you have a point; that with Nikons state at the moment, there might be a long wait till the newer bodies come out.

 

[Swanseajack]

Based on Nikon's usual schedule there should be replacements for both the D810 and D750 this year, but as we know they've been severely crippled by the earthquakes and so it wouldn't surprise me if it causes a significant delay on the release of these. They might announce something, but with a lengthy wait like they did with the DLs (which have been pushed back even further).

There'll always be something 'just around the corner' though

Forgetting the earthquake, I have also thought, with the D5 & D500 hitting the shelves this year would they bring out another couple of FF cameras, although upgrades?

 

[odd jim]

Forgetting the earthquake, I have also thought, with the D5 & D500 hitting the shelves this year would they bring out another couple of FF cameras, although upgrades?

Isn't the d500 a crop?

 

[Swanseajack]

Isn't the d500 a crop?

Yes it is Jim, just mentioned it due to the price of the body. I would be surprised if they had four new releases this year, where three of them could have possibly been competing with each other.

 

[BillN_33]

they are all toys - I have just been looking at some small bird images taken by a guy on another forum who still used a D200 with a 70 300mm f4 and they are very good

(OK, I'm the worse for wanting the latest "stuff")

 

[odd jim]

they are all toys - I have just been looking at some small bird images taken by a guy on another forum who still used a D200 with a 70 300mm f4 and they are very good

(OK, I'm the worse for wanting the latest "stuff")

A good camera never stops being a good camera, no matter what comes out after it

 

[HoppyUK]

Yes probably, as the FF image carries on past the cropped areas of the APSC camera and the blur increases in severity towards the extremities.

No, out of focus blur is even across the frame.

I always considered depth of field to be the areas of the image in focus though...

It is.

...(as it refers to the effective focus range, which doesn't change between FF and crop with the same lens), I'm guessing we don't all see it like that, some see it as the entire image?

This doesn't read right to me. If you have a 50mm lens on APS-C and an 85mm lens on full-frame, from the same distance, the framing and perspective will be the same. But if you shoot at the same aperture, the FF image will have less depth-of-field - a bit over one stop less. Use the crop factor to adjust f/number for equivalence.

It's because the APS-C format needs greater enlargement for same size output, eg print, so the circle of confusion needs to be reduced in the calculation. DoF is all about magnification, including the diameter of the lens aperture.

 

[odd jim]

No, out of focus blur is even across the frame.



It is.



This doesn't read right to me. If you have a 50mm lens on APS-C and an 85mm lens on full-frame, from the same distance, the framing and perspective will be the same. But if you shoot at the same aperture, the FF image will have less depth-of-field - a bit over one stop less. Use the crop factor to adjust f/number for equivalence.

It's because the APS-C format needs greater enlargement for same size output, eg print, so the circle of confusion needs to be reduced in the calculation. DoF is all about magnification, including the diameter of the lens aperture.

But cropped is not magnified (same lens, different sensors). A 50mm on a crop will have the same area in focus as a full frame at the same aperture and distance from the subject.

 

[dinorock]

I've been in this situation myself before. In my experience, moving system only serves to frustrate as you try to untrain your Canon brain and re-train to someone else's. I did it with Fuji, what a waste of money.

Your Canon vs Nikon scenario is of the same ilk - sure, the D810 might be better than the 5D3, but the two companies pull ahead of one another depending on where they are in their respective development/release cycles.

If it was my choice to make, I'd stick with the system I knew. It appears you're not averse to buying used lenses/bodies - one thing about the Canon system is the sheer number of used items on the market.

I own a d810 and its stunning,but i'm not a fanboy i only have a nikon because its where i started in digital and stuck with it from a d50/d300/d700 then the d810 knowledge of the menus and buttons builds up over time and makes my use of the camera much easier.now i can spend more time getting the photos right, hth Mike.

 

[HoppyUK]

But cropped is not magnified (same lens, different sensors). A 50mm on a crop will have the same area in focus as a full frame at the same aperture and distance from the subject.

No Jim. If you are comparing a 50mm lens on full-frame and APS-C from the same distance at the same aperture, then a) the framing will be completely different, and b) the full-frame image will actually have more depth-of-field.

But because taking two images with completely different framing is not a realistic or useful comparison, you need to adjust focal focal length to restore framing (and maintain same perspective) and then also adjust the aperture for same DoF. Use the crop factor to adjust both focal length and f/number.

Check it out here http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html Note that when you change the camera model in the pull-down menu, the CoC value changes at the bottom/right of the panel (also by the crop factor).

 

[woof woof]

No Jim. If you are comparing a 50mm lens on full-frame and APS-C from the same distance at the same aperture, then a) the framing will be completely different, and b) the full-frame image will actually have more depth-of-field.

But because taking two images with completely different framing is not a realistic or useful comparison, you need to adjust focal focal length to restore framing (and maintain same perspective) and then also adjust the aperture for same DoF. Use the crop factor to adjust both focal length and f/number.

This is one thing that people often overlook, it seems as if there's often an automatic assumption that the smaller system will give deep dof and no latitude for anything else and of course there's the option to crop and create a different final image. I think that people are sometimes too afraid to crop but if the final image is still big enough for purpose cropping can give options not necessarily available for shooting a whole image with the gear at the time and you can even shoot with the intention of cropping for final output.

 

[big soft moose]

Hmm. Over 50 posts and nobody's brought this up. You love your 70-200 on a crop sensor. So what will you use if/when you move to full frame? You can replace your 50 prime with an 85 prime, but what about the zoom?

sigma 120-300

 

[snerkler]

they are all toys - I have just been looking at some small bird images taken by a guy on another forum who still used a D200 with a 70 300mm f4 and they are very good

(OK, I'm the worse for wanting the latest "stuff")

Ahhh, but could he have taken 200 virtually identical shots in 20s?

 

[pjm1]

@Morph3ous , I went through the same dilemma at the beginning of this year (moving from a Pentax crop) and the change has blown me away - for a few reasons, not all of which were expected. As with all of these sorts of discussions, YMMV considerably as we all shoot different things, differently. But this is what I found:

1. The resolution is great - I've never once had a "I wish I could crop in a bit more and not see those jaggies" which I had with the 16MP Pentax, but that may be more to do with...
2. I almost exclusively shoot with the 85mm 1.8g. It's a fab lens, very good value and just does it for me. I shoot portraity stuff, fast moving kids, more contextual stuff etc... I've even done a few "different" landscape shots with it. It's a perfect focal length for me and I reckon it's responsible for 90-95% of my shots
3. The AF is fast... awesomely so, coming from a slow Pentax. With both the 50mm 1.8D and the 85mm 1.8G it's plenty fast enough for me with kids running around and a high enough shutter speed. Sometimes the eyelashes aren't as sharp (i.e. missed focus) but that's when they're running towards me, for example and I usually rattle off a few and get one nailed.
4. Its rendering is "nice" - I really like the look that the camera delivers without mucking around in LR. I have it set to automatically set the white & black points and provide a fixed adjustment to the shadows & highlights and that's often me done. I actually use auto exposure (shock horror) because of Highlight Metering...
5. Highlight metering is great. It's a slightly flawed Exposure To The Right feature and apart from generally underexposing (hence the auto exposure toggle in LR) it has resulted in virtually no shots having blown highlights. With the shadow recovery ability of the D750, it means you really can point and shoot if you want to, even in really challenging conditions. I do turn it off for specific shots, but I reckon I use it 80-90% of the time.

 

[Morph3ous]

Thanks for the replies.

Well thanks for a fellow member I now have myself a Nikon d750! Its arriving tomorrow and I'm so excited. Its coming with a Nikon 18-35mm lens, and I can't wait to get my hands on it. The 85mm 1.8G is next on the list as I feel I'll use that lens a lot. It felt great when I tested in the shop.