Full Frame Questions

Everything relates directly to the larger sensor area of FF - it's slightly more than twice the area of APS-C (crop factor squared) and collects twice as much light/photons. This brings some fundamental advantages, such as ISO performance is about one stop better (comparing similar generation sensors), there is greater dynamic range (roughly one stop more shadow detail), and the bit that so often gets overlooked - it allows lenses to perform better, with sharper results.

I keep reading this on forums but I've yet to hear or read a technical explanation of this which satisfies me from an engineering pov.

FF normally performs better than smaller systems with a few exceptions... but when you look at images taken with FF cameras in crop mode do they suddenly drop a stop of dynamic range and develop more noise? I doubt it.

If the technology (FF v APS-C/other) is equal the only differences we should see should be due to different levels of image magnification. Possibly the only way to guarantee that the tec is the same is to shoot with a FF camera in both FF and crop modes and view the results and if you don't do that you'll almost certainly be comparing cameras with more differences than just the size of the sensor, the pixel size, circuitry and algorithms used may be different and indeed the imaging chips might not even be designed or made by the same companies.

IMVHO FF chips are generally better because of two reasons. They're generally the state of the art for the company producing them because they're flagship products and the manufacturers will have different design briefs and aims for different formats.
 
I keep reading this on forums but I've yet to hear or read a technical explanation of this which satisfies me from an engineering pov.

FF normally performs better than smaller systems with a few exceptions... but when you look at images taken with FF cameras in crop mode do they suddenly drop a stop of dynamic range and develop more noise? I doubt it.

If the technology (FF v APS-C/other) is equal the only differences we should see should be due to different levels of image magnification. Possibly the only way to guarantee that the tec is the same is to shoot with a FF camera in both FF and crop modes and view the results and if you don't do that you'll almost certainly be comparing cameras with more differences than just the size of the sensor, the pixel size, circuitry and algorithms used may be different and indeed the imaging chips might not even be designed or made by the same companies.

IMVHO FF chips are generally better because of two reasons. They're generally the state of the art for the company producing them because they're flagship products and the manufacturers will have different design briefs and aims for different formats.

Doing those kinds of comparisons is difficult, because one stop of dynamic range and noise reduction is not huge in the great scheme of things, and then different cameras make drawing absolute conclusions tricky. DPreview takes a decent stab at it in the article, and comes to the same conclusion.

Two good comparisons are the Nikon D300 vs D700, and Canon 7D vs 5D2 - same generations of tech, and also with similar pixel counts between the two formats. However, the lenses would perform differently, even if they were the same lenses at different ends of the zoom range (to get the same framing). The lens problem would also apply to cropping down a FF image, and the pixel counts would obviously not be the same either.

However, ask any photographer that has moved from a D300 to a D700, or Canon 7D to 5D2 (and there are many of them) which is better, and you'll only get one answer. But, and this is where DPreview stopped short, the main thing most users want from FF is better sharpness. And that's what they get, for the reasons explained previously.

What is the technical explanation that you're missing? Light/photons is the raw material of photography - if you have twice as much of that to start with, then the camera can do a lot more. That's all there is to it in terms of ISO and noise.
 
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Hey everyone, go watch this brilliant video by Zack Arias about sensor sizes:
 
... Light/photons is the raw material of photography - if you have twice as much of that to start with, then the camera can do a lot more. That's all there is to it in terms of ISO and noise.
To me, this is the crux, its easy to get drawn into arguments about nuances, but it's surely as simple as 'more data is better'.

If we take it for granted that 35mm film is better than 110, that 6x6 is better still and that 5x4 is better again, then FF will be an improvement over crop.

Bear in mind I'm a crop shooter, the decision made on a 'good enough' basis.
 
I agree..... simple physics.
Bigger sensor should equal more photographic data. :)
 
I have tried the noise reduction softwares and I don't like how they soften out the image and since the d610s sensor resolution is larger than the d7000s couldn't I crop it down to the d7000s image size?
No.
A dx crop from the D610 will be a smaller image than the D7000 (10Mp vs 16MP). Additionally you loose a lot of the sensor performance (ISO noise, color, DR, etc) by cropping instead of down-sampling.
 
No.
A dx crop from the D610 will be a smaller image than the D7000 (10Mp vs 16MP). Additionally you loose a lot of the sensor performance (ISO noise, color, DR, etc) by cropping instead of down-sampling.

Wouldn't the cropped down d610 still be close to the d7000 full size
 
... but when you look at images taken with FF cameras in crop mode do they suddenly drop a stop of dynamic range and develop more noise? I doubt it.
At a native 1:1 pixel comparison the crop doesn't affect anything. A DX crop printed at 300dpi size (smaller) will have the same qualities as the FF image printed at 300dpi (larger).

BUT, the comparisons/ratings are for a (baseline) "normalized image" which means a larger sensor of greater/equal MP count will be down-sampled (DXO uses an 8MP 8x12 standard). If you crop it (dx mode) you loose that data and the down-sampling "advantage." My D800 in DX mode looks very much like the D7000 I had (identical?). And that makes sense...they end up as the "same size sensor" with the same sized pixels and the same pixel count.

I personally find this problematic... I don't want the extra MP's/performance for printing at the same size. And the advertised/rated performance is not as good when printed at larger sizes (but better than a smaller/lower MP sensor printed larger/same size).
The "normalized" comparison is about the only valid way to compare between cameras for a given print size...I just wish they also rated the sensors at native resolution.
 
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My d610 arrived yesterday and I couldn't be happier. Anyone reading at this later don't hesitate to upgrade to full frame. Just shooting around informally with my family turned out great. Thanks everyone who helped me to arrive at this decision.
 
Glad you're happy with the move to FF. As always, it's your money so spend it how you want to.
 
I belive if you have a good enough senor and lens combination you can just take the photo at FF and then crop in post.
This worked for me when using a Sony A7 and the 70-200mm lens which is known for its sharpness :)
 
I belive if you have a good enough senor and lens combination you can just take the photo at FF and then crop in post.
This worked for me when using a Sony A7 and the 70-200mm lens which is known for its sharpness :)
As long as what you're left with is adequate for the use...
Cropping is throwing away capability/performance... that's fine if you have more than you need.
 
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