Front brakes (car) question

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Please help on a car related problem.

A few months ago the car started to develop a squeal from the front left wheel.
I went to a local garage and the brake pads got replaced. The squeal stayed, and the braking performance deteriorated from excellent to what I consider unacceptable. I need to really floor it to stop it, otherwhise it slowly decceleates, 2nd gear probably works more effectively at it now :thumbsdown:. (Ever driven an old clio or corsa? - that's what it feels now) The garage looked at it again 3 times, even put new pads in yesterday, but the problem is still there after wasting too much cash.

What should I be looking at to get it sorted? The only other alternative I can think of is OEM dealer and a full front brake system job :bang: I am seriously fed up with the local garage - so much greed and incompetence. So back to square one now; I don't trust any of the 7 garages (cheap to v. expensive) I tried in Bristol.
 
What car is it?,how old, is the squeal there the whole time or after you apply the brake, how long does it squeal for, do the brakes get hot at all? .

A lot of questions I know, information is your best friend when asking about this type of problem.

Could be a sticking caliper piston or the slides could be jamming in the caliper , faulty servo hence the amount of pressure to apply brakes. Does the peddle have a dead kinda feel to it when your trying to brake.

If the garage that fitted the pads have done their job right, they should've stripped the caliper down and cleaned them... i.e. cleaned all the components, the slides, in behind the piston boot that kinda thing,check to see if the piston works freely and also the slides.
 
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Hi, I don't know if it's any help but my front wheel was squeaking for ages and it turned out to be the wheel bearing. Regarding the loss of braking power, it's odd that they are worse than before you got the pads changed! I suppose the problem could be a fault in the brake lines or servo, funnily enough I've had similar issues with my car.

I would suggest you ditch the garage you've been using and go to a specialist for your manufacturer of car. I have a SEAT and found the OEM/main dealers to be rubbish and gave absolutely shocking service and prices. So I have been going to a specialist in Bristol called 'Vee W Services' in Bristol who specialise in VAG cars. If your car is not VAG, have a search for a specialist I.e. Mazda specialist Bristol and there should be at least one nearby.

If you don't get any luck, Vee W Service are extremely knowledgeable, with great service and reasonable prices. If your car isn't a VAG they'll still look at it and considering it's a problem with the brakes they don't need any specialist knowledge on your make of car.

The reason I recommend a specialist is because they provide much better prices than main dealers, use allow genuine/OEM parts that you would get from a main dealer and provide much better service too - a win-win situation!

Hope this helps,

Will.
 
Good point from mxfun regarding the calipers. Also meant to say I hope they didn't charge you for replacing the pads for the second time just because the first set didn't change the issues you were experiencing.
 
mxfun said:
What car is it?,how old, is the squeal there the whole time or after you apply the brake, how long does it squeal for, do the brakes get hot at all? .

It's a 2006 SEAT Toledo.
It is squealing mostly when making a right turn (no braking). The sound goes if I gently press the brake pedal.
I think the disks can get fairly warm at the very least.

A lot of questions I know, information is your best friend when asking about this type of problem.

Could be a sticking caliper piston or the slides could be jamming in the caliper , faulty servo hence the amount of pressure to apply brakes. Does the peddle have a dead kinda feel to it when your trying to brake.

The first couple of inches of pedal movement (very little resistance) now do very little, and then it is quite stiff after that.

If the garage that fitted the pads have done their job right, they should've stripped the caliper down and cleaned them... i.e. cleaned all the components, the slides, in behind the piston boot that kinda thing,check to see if the piston works freely and also the slides.

Yeah, that's what I told them (to check it ALL), but I haven't seen them do the work
Click to expand...

Will James said:
Hi, I don't know if it's any help but my front wheel was squeaking for ages and it turned out to be the wheel bearing. Regarding the loss of braking power, it's odd that they are worse than before you got the pads changed! I suppose the problem could be a fault in the brake lines or servo, funnily enough I've had similar issues with my car.

I had mentioned bearing to them but it was quickly dismissed probably without checking properly

I would suggest you ditch the garage you've been using and go to a specialist for your manufacturer of car. I have a SEAT and found the OEM/main dealers to be rubbish and gave absolutely shocking service and prices. So I have been going to a specialist in Bristol called 'Vee W Services' in Bristol who specialise in VAG cars. If your car is not VAG, have a search for a specialist I.e. Mazda specialist Bristol and there should be at least one nearby.

Funny my car is a SEAT, and there was some work done by the dealer before. In short I need to order paint repair kit thanks to that.
I might give Vee W Services a go.

If you don't get any luck, Vee W Service are extremely knowledgeable, with great service and reasonable prices. If your car isn't a VAG they'll still look at it and considering it's a problem with the brakes they don't need any specialist knowledge on your make of car.

The reason I recommend a specialist is because they provide much better prices than main dealers, use allow genuine/OEM parts that you would get from a main dealer and provide much better service too - a win-win situation!

Hope this helps,

Will.
Click to expand...
 
There's a site called motorcodes http://www.motorcodes.co.uk/garagefinder/ that has lists of garages and they're supposed to be much better if they're in the scheme. It's a nightmare finding anywhere decent.

Some trading standards areas have a good garage scheme too.

I'd have taken it back to the first garage immediately and told them they haven't cured the squeal and they have made the brakes dangerous. I'd have told them to sort the braking quality FOC as they clearly have buggered it up. Changing the pads shouldn't do that unless they did something stupid at the same time. New pads do take a short while to bed in but braking efficiency shouldn't be so bad you'd be better sticking your foot through the floor. Check brake fluid level too.

Also check wheels. If they feel warm after a run then it's a likely sign of a sticking caliper. Refurbed calipers are usually only about £80-£100 for most cars. I'd change the squealing side.
 

You will not be disappointed with them, I recommend them to everyone based on the fantastic service they've given me in the last three years. Now I get everything done from there. Good luck, I hope you get the problem sorted out smoothly
 
Will James said:
Regarding the loss of braking power, it's odd that they are worse than before you got the pads changed!
Click to expand...

No it's not...... Brakes take time to bed in.

The old pads would have worn to the contors of the discs, the new pads would be pretty much flat and would take time to "mould" to the contors of the disc.

This process can take a few hundred miles (depending on driving style) and during this period hard braking should be avoided if possible.

Squealing brakes can be due to a whole range of things, usually though it's just down the the pads and discs, some combinations squeal like pigs, others are fine. Whilst it's really annoying, generally speaking it doesn't actually cause any problems.

With that said though, I would be tempted to find a decent garage who can give you an honest assessment, check everything's safe and put your mind at rest :)
 
Russ77 said:
No it's not...... Brakes take time to bed in.

The old pads would have worn to the contors of the discs, the new pads would be pretty much flat and would take time to "mould" to the contors of the disc.

This process can take a few hundred miles (depending on driving style) and during this period hard braking should be avoided if possible.

Squealing brakes can be due to a whole range of things, usually though it's just down the the pads and discs, some combinations squeal like pigs, others are fine. Whilst it's really annoying, generally speaking it doesn't actually cause any problems.

With that said though, I would be tempted to find a decent garage who can give you an honest assessment, check everything's safe and put your mind at rest :)
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The old pads had 12mm left. The garage absolutely had to change them!!! The first replacement set had 300 or so miles. It was just getting worse. How can set 2 being 'bad' from the beginning become sharp? I've lost my faith here.

There was no squeal before January, and it is getting worse. The right doesn't sequeal at all for some reason, that suggest there is something wrong on the left and it is developing.
 
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12mm is a lot of brake pad! Did they mean 1.2mm? If the garage is telling you 12mm of brake pad isn't enough then I think you really do need to find another garage :bat:

The brake/suspension components on the nearside (left) of a car will tend to wear/corrode faster than the offside (right) due to the fact that that side of the car spends more times going through puddles that collect near the kerb ;)

When my mate was doing some work on my car, of off-side suspension came apart easily.... the nearside was a much harder fought competition :lol:

From what you've said I don't think the brake pads are the problem here. I was more making the observation that the chances are, when you change pad and/or discs, for a short time you will lose brake performance until the new breaks bed in.

As mentioned in this post already, there are a number of things that could be causing the problem. Cheapest to check would be brake fluid level, when was the last time the brake fluid was changed? Most manufacturers recommend changing the fluid every 2 years.
 
Russ77 said:
12mm is a lot of brake pad! Did they mean 1.2mm? If the garage is telling you 12mm of brake pad isn't enough then I think you really do need to find another garage :bat:

The brake/suspension components on the nearside (left) of a car will tend to wear/corrode faster than the offside (right) due to the fact that that side of the car spends more times going through puddles that collect near the kerb ;)

When my mate was doing some work on my car, of off-side suspension came apart easily.... the nearside was a much harder fought competition :lol:

From what you've said I don't think the brake pads are the problem here. I was more making the observation that the chances are, when you change pad and/or discs, for a short time you will lose brake performance until the new breaks bed in.

As mentioned in this post already, there are a number of things that could be causing the problem. Cheapest to check would be brake fluid level, when was the last time the brake fluid was changed? Most manufacturers recommend changing the fluid every 2 years.
Click to expand...

12.0mm. Apparently they were 'cheap and glazed'. :gag: Brake fluid (OEM) changed with the first new set of pads. It's a shame I didn't buy OEM pads, now they've put something 'upmarket' with loads of grease. Can the grease cause they poor efficiency? I am just thinking. I made them test drive it with me, and they were obviously 'very happy' with their awful job. I am not comming back even though I should make them finish it properly.
 
daugirdas said:
12.0mm. Apparently they were 'cheap and glazed'. :gag: Brake fluid (OEM) changed with the first new set of pads. It's a shame I didn't buy OEM pads, now they've put something 'upmarket' with loads of grease. Can the grease cause they poor efficiency? I am just thinking. I made them test drive it with me, and they were obviously 'very happy' with their awful job. I am not comming back even though I should make them finish it properly.
Click to expand...

12.0mm cheap and glazed pads would more than likely give you squealing, but 12mm of pad material is pretty much a new brake pad.

The grease they apply would be copper slip grease would be applied to the backs of the pads as this in itself can stop them squealing as it stops vibration between the back of the pad and the caliper.
 
Russ77 said:
12.0mm cheap and glazed pads would more than likely give you squealing, but 12mm of pad material is pretty much a new brake pad.

The grease they apply would be copper slip grease would be applied to the backs of the pads as this in itself can stop them squealing as it stops vibration between the back of the pad and the caliper.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what the garage told me, but there is still plenty of squeal. :shrug: So maybe it isn't down to the pads, but how are the brakes so numb now? It is like my bicycle with cheap Wilko pads.
 
daugirdas said:
12.0mm. Apparently they were 'cheap and glazed'. :gag: Brake fluid (OEM) changed with the first new set of pads. It's a shame I didn't buy OEM pads, now they've put something 'upmarket' with loads of grease. Can the grease cause they poor efficiency? I am just thinking. I made them test drive it with me, and they were obviously 'very happy' with their awful job. I am not comming back even though I should make them finish it properly.
Click to expand...

If you have had the fluid changed and the system has not been bleed in the correct way this will also cause loss in braking performance.
Air locks could be present in the system.


Gaz
 
Chances are the disc has glazed as well as the pads, may be an idea to rub some emery cloth over them to remove any glazing. I agree with quiteone, doesn't sound like the brakes were bled properly after the new fluid was added.
 
Is the brake peddle spongy, if your pads were glazed I'd be asking the question why are they glazed.
 
nilagin said:
Chances are the disc has glazed as well as the pads, may be an idea to rub some emery cloth over them to remove any glazing. I agree with quiteone, doesn't sound like the brakes were bled properly after the new fluid was added.
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They claim they have re-bled the system yesterday and no air was found :shrug: I am not sure if the disk is glazed, but it has clearly changed appearance since the first set of pads were on (there was a 1cm wide layer of rust on the edge and is gone now)

mxfun said:
Is the brake peddle spongy, if your pads were glazed I'd be asking the question why are they glazed.
Click to expand...

Considering I have £25 Kwikfit voucher is it worth 'burning' that to get closer to truth or is that going to end up with more money waste?
 
Don't use Kwik Fit.

When you turn the car off, pump the brake pedal. It should firm after 1 pump, and certainly by the 3rd pump feel rock solid. If you start the car with your foot still on the brake pedal it should 'ease' slightly.

The squeeking, as said, is usually due to a lack of copper slip on the back of the pad where it butts against the piston or the 'stops' on the outside of the caliper. It could also be due to a loose caliper though.

The lack of stopping power could be due to air in the fluid caused by improper bleeding (see brake pumping above) or by contamination of the disc if your brake fitter was careless.

If you're not handy with spanners yourself I would recommend not going back to the place which has not solved the problem. Nip to an MOT garage and get them to test the brakes on the rollers and check the discs. It may just need someone competent to take the pads and discs out, clean the discs with brake disc cleaner, and re-assemble correctly.
 
could be a couple of things, I had both of these happen on a Honda.

1 sticking caliper, not moving on it mount, caused on of the pads to just be touching the disk and squealed like a banshi until lite pressure was placed on the brake pedal or I went round a corner. caliper cleaned and copperslip on back of new pads. problem solved


2 knackered discs, grooved and glazed, new discs.
 
OK, I think a lot of time is being spent thinking about the brakes when they might not be at fault. Did I read correctly that the squeal happens when you are going round a corner, and a tap on the braked stops the squeal?

If that is the case then it may not be the brakes at all, but a wheel bearing. When you tap the brakes in a corner it changes all sorts of forces that are acting on the wheels momentarily, and that could be enough to stop a bearing squealing until the next corner.
 
If its a front bearing and it was jacked up would there be play when you push and pull the wheel?

I have a similar issues and I'm sure its the left hand front brake. I'm going to take the wheel off and look at it over the weekend.
It screeches off and on as I drive, even on a straight road but stops when I'm breaking.
My brake pads etc were changed a year ago.
 
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DpM said:
If its a front bearing and it was jacked up would there be play when you push and pull the wheel?

I have a similar issues and I'm sure its the left hand front brake. I'm going to take the wheel off and look at it over the weekend.
It screeches off and on as I drive, even on a straight road but stops when I'm breaking.
My brake pads etc were changed a year ago.
Click to expand...

There was no play in the wheel, but I don't think anyone looked much further than that. Is it possible the case is not extreme enough to allow obvious movement, but sufficient to make the noise?
 
daugirdas said:
There was no play in the wheel, but I don't think anyone looked much further than that. Is it possible the case is not extreme enough to allow obvious movement, but sufficient to make the noise?
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Not sure.

I have always been told and found in the two cases where a rear bearing went on other cars, that it causes more of a whirring noise.

I might be wrong/misinformed though.

I had bearing go so badly once on a drive from Bristol to London that the inner brace welded itself to the axle. I had to leave the car in Balham and return mid week to angle grind the brace off and replace the bearing to get it home.

I had to do the drive though as I was helping a mate move and we had his two piranha fish in my car that has to get to the other end in a decent amount of time.

That was years ago. Funny to look back on now but I was proper stressed about it at the time!
 
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DTB said:
Don't use Kwik Fit.

When you turn the car off, pump the brake pedal. It should firm after 1 pump, and certainly by the 3rd pump feel rock solid. If you start the car with your foot still on the brake pedal it should 'ease' slightly.
Click to expand...

They do get harder, but I wouldn't call it rock solid, just firm-ish.
Once the car is back on they do ease a bit slowly, but then 'slightly' can mean different things. I am not sure.

The first 2 inches drop down very easily with airy sound (and do next to no breaking, whereas before it would nearly stop the car). Something is clearly wrong now the squealing noise aside.
 
Check all 4 wheels after you've been for a run and see if there is a hot one.

Is there a garage with a brake tester nearby? I'd have them check the braking force. If it is an MOT fail then you need stick a bomb up the garage that has been doing the work. Plus if it can be observed on a rolling road they may see what the actual problem is rather than guessing.
 
daugirdas said:
There was no play in the wheel, but I don't think anyone looked much further than that. Is it possible the case is not extreme enough to allow obvious movement, but sufficient to make the noise?
Click to expand...

Yes very possible...huge forces at play with brakes, easily more than can be felt first time round. I've had a very similar problem (Same sounding problem in fact) last year on a van, quite a few mechanics took a look, Im a bike mechanic by profession, none of us found the problem....In the end a stripped everything, bearing the lot and found that the main axle had been rubbing its self narrower because off a skewed bearing, in effect when I applied the brake I was using up 50% of the braking energy flexing the partially and slightly floating axle in the space made by it grinding away on the inner bearing.

daugirdas said:
They do get harder, but I wouldn't call it rock solid, just firm-ish.
Once the car is back on they do ease a bit slowly, but then 'slightly' can mean different things. I am not sure.

The first 2 inches drop down very easily with airy sound (and do next to no breaking, whereas before it would nearly stop the car). Something is clearly wrong now the squealing noise aside.
Click to expand...

I know bikes not cars but it sounds very like the air assisted part of your braking system (if you have that) isn't working at all. ...or your system has air in it and needs re-bleeding.
 
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I'd say wheel bearing or sticking calliper, having had similar issues over the years with a number of cars.

Mind you, I recently had some new tyres fitted and the correct wheels were re-fitted but the front left had a squeal that went once the fitter had re-seated the alloy wheel back onto the bearing again.

RE: the change in pressure on the pedal when you brake - Has the fluid been checked?
 
daugirdas said:
I need to really floor it to stop it,
Click to expand...

If that is still the case and its that extreme then it's most likely to be either:

- a serious amount of air in the brake fluid
- a vacuum leak from the servo
- a failed / faulty servo

It's highly unlikely to be variances in the brake pads.

Regarding the noise if it occurs when the brakes are not in use and remedied when they are, it points heavily towards the wheel bearing.

Only if you get squeal when you use the brakes (from their being no noise prior) or a constant noise should you be looking at the brakes themselves.

All that said, all of this and the above is still armchair diagnostics and you would be well advised to find a specialist (e.g. the one above). I would strongly recommend you document the sequence of events and detail the nature (and any changes in the concern) over time so that this specialist can be given a clear and accurate picture of the concern before they start work. Also, talk to the person who will actually work on your car to ensure this is conveyed first hand.
 
Defiance said:
If that is still the case and its that extreme then it's most likely to be either:

- a serious amount of air in the brake fluid
- a vacuum leak from the servo
- a failed / faulty servo
Click to expand...

Presuming it is one of those - how likely could the garage damage those while changing the pads and fluid?
 
Thanks Adam :)

They shouldn't touch the servo or be near to it when replacing the pads. It's highly unlikely they would touch the servo to do the fluid, although if they are under the bonnet topping up the fluid and doing anything around the brake master cylinder end there is always an outside chance of dislodging a pipe from the servo (although I should add I don't know the specific layout of the Toledo).

Just checking on the internet and the Seat Toledo did have a recall for a tension crack in the vacuum pipe to the servo. Not sure if it affects your model year though.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
He was going to stop by and post a reply, but he pressed the brake pedal and ended up 4 pages away :D
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That's it, I'm giggling in the corner like a naughty school kid.
 
Davec223 said:
Did you get this sorted? What was it?
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Not yet, I'm very busy for the next couple of weeks. The brakes got slightly better (far from perfect) and the noise is getting worse :gag:
I am debating main dealer vs v vee

As far as brakes are concerned I've been told by a few people to only ever use OEM parts, so this may need changing regardless :bang:.
 
a little update.

I changed the brakes and discs to the OEM ones. Some 40mi later they are still bedding in but already better than the previous crap (that was good enough to pass MOT :gag:). My advice is to only go genuine for brakes.

The squeak is still there I think. This would pretty much point it to the bearing?
 
I would expect any competent mechanic to notice a faulty wheel bearing when changing the pads and tell you about it(more work for them too), does your local council have a "good garages scheme? if so you could try one of them to rectify the fault, personally I wouldn't trust the car to anyone who needs more than one attempt to cure a brake problem, not something you want to worry about.
 
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