Freezing motion with studio lighting. Please help..........

wonderer

wonderer

Suspended / Banned
Messages
206
Edit My Images
Yes
...........before I set fire to all my equipment in frustration. :grumpy:

OK, my issue. I have a session booked with a model next week and I really wanted to get some shots of her throwing her hair around with the hair frozen in motion. I have been practicing for the last two days with the other half and no matter what setting combinations I try not a single shot comes out with the motion frozen. There is always an element of blur. This is also true for the extremities, hands, feet etc when moved around.

Ok, the setup consists of a Nikon D7100 and 2 sets of Interfit EX400ti 400 watt studio lights, so 4 x 400 watt lights in all. The Nikon syncs with the lights via radio receiver seemingly no higher than 160 before the black bar creeps in but from my research so far into my problem it seems this is far too low a speed to freeze the motion so...........what am I to do? I only have one flashgun, an SB700 so although I know flashguns are quicker than the studio strobes my funds at the moment do not allow the purchase of any more photography equipment for a while.

So, in a nutshell, is it impossible for me to get a decent frozen shot with what I have? It seems bizarre than a recent dslr camera and 4 x 400 watt lights cant freeze motion well? Also just for clarification the ambient light in the room is pretty low, just enough for focusing requirements.

Please help

Rich
 
Hard to do with ordinary studio strobes. Your only bet would be to try to shoot at max power and just diffuse it to reduce the amount of light. It still might be too slow (most likely will).

For motion freezing best options are speed lights or IGBT style studio strobes (something like Lencarta's SF series for example). You could use your speedlight as the main light. However, keep the power down, preferably below 1/2 power. You will be limited in how you can modify the light though.
 
b****r. Thank Rebel for the quick reply. Guess hair flicking needs to be an outdoor/sunny day pusuit at the moment. Out of curiosity how many speedlights would you say to light a single model and white background in a smallish studio setup?

Foggy that is certainly better than I get at the moment. Can I ask how you get the SS to 250 on that shot? Is that what your camera syncs to before you see the black lines. The D7100 is a pretty newish camera so i dont know why I cant get it higher than 160, anyone know if it can be tweaker higher at all?
 
Your sync speed should be the same as my D300 at 1/250 but I used that to help kill ambient light. I hadn't had my Elinchrom heads(200w) long so it was trial an error. Try using the heads on a low power setting as the duration of the flash will be shorter.
 
It will depend on the distance to model, background, composition and the direction the hair will travel. Why not give it a try with your speedlight.

You could limit the movement and ask your model to move the hair a bit slower and experiment with speedlight and with your strobes.

foggy4ever said:
Your sync speed should be the same as my D300 at 1/250 but I used that to help kill ambient light. I hadn't had my Elinchrom heads(200w) long so it was trial an error. Try using the heads on a low power setting as the duration of the flash will be shorter.
Click to expand...

If I'm not wrong then normal studio strobes have shorter duration at max settings. IGBT strobes work like speedlights and have shorter duration on low power.
 
Last edited:
=ReBeL= said:
If I'm not wrong then normal studio strobes have shorter duration at max settings. IGBT strobes work like speedlights and have shorter duration on low power.
Click to expand...
I'm probably thinking of a speedlight then.
 
Just to clarify, the 1/160 isn't your problem (unless the ambient light is significant). But the duration of the flash is the real issue. Have a try with one interfit on full power, then try with a speedlight on low power.

If you've got triggers that'll do a high speed sync, you might get results at max shutter speed using them and the interfits.
 
Interfit's aren't the fastest, Elinchrom or Lencarta studio flashes are pretty fast, but still not the right tool for the job.

Your best bet by far (IMO) is the Lenarta SuperFast, which will freeze any action at low power settings.
Hotshoe flashes will do the same, but with the very real limitations of very low power, no proper way of fitting light shaping tools, fairly slow recycling and no modelling lamp.
 
wonderer said:
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the advice. The radio triggers actually come with the lights but I cant find info about high speed sync with them. They are these ones http://www.fotosense.co.uk/interfit-int477-ex400-ti-2-head-flash-kit.html
Click to expand...
They'll not do HSS, you'll need to buy some HSS capable triggers, maybe YN622's if you're looking for inexpensive, get the TX and you can set the mode to SS, you can adjust the timing in a custom function, it's not perfect but you can learn to use with it.
 
Short answer, your best bet is probably the SB700 at half power, or quarter power - should be fast enough. Push ISO if needs be for good exposure.
 
Something's not quite right here. There should be no reason why a studio head (or several) cannot freeze something as relatively slow moving as flicked hair, water droplets, ice into drinks and so on in low ambient light. Most of my studio shots are taken with a start point of 1/125 and around about F8 and this is with a camera with a sync speed of 1/250. The camera is obviously in full manual mode and ISO set at 100, not Auto ISO which can lead to all kinds of problems. The black banding is caused by the latency in the radio remotes, the sensor is already partially obscured by the second curtain before the slower radio remotes have got their act together and fired the flash(es). Given low levels of ambient light, reducing the shutter speed to say 1/100 is going to make virtually no difference to the image. A shot taken with the remote turned off should result in an almost completely black picture. With the remote on, exposure is going to be adjusted by aperture on the camera or power adjustment on the flash head, the shutter is almost irrelevant once latency has been taken into account given low levels of ambient light. I've never personally needed HSS in a studio environment, surely best used as a option for neutralizing high levels of ambient light for such as sun lit brides?
I have 2 Lencarta Smartflashes and 2 Interfit EXD200s. A quick trawl around the internet gives the flash durations of approx 1/400 to 1/1200 for the Lencartas and 1/300 to 1/1000 for the interfits, fast enough for this purpose I suggest. Test results for the Lencartas, half way down are at:

http://www.lightingrumours.com/lenc...o-light-with-remote-control-5004#.VMvm_GisWTU

The attached image was one of a sequence taken at 1/160 and F16, using 2 Smartflashes at about half power.
View attachment 29739
 
The picture is not pin sharp (whether that was the requirement for this shot or not I don't know). It's not the shutter speed that freezes the movement but the flash (duration). It is also not as simple as to say this flash freezes motion and this won't. It depends on the composition and detail, it depends on how fast the movement is travelling through the frame (slow moving hair in a full pose portrait is much easier to catch than a water droplets in a highly detailed product shot), distance, background, light requirements and settings, etc.

It also depends on what you want to achieve and what is the purpose of the shot. If you are just having fun and just want to upload something on the net then it won't bother you (or your viewers) if parts of the movement in your photo have blur, however if your task (as in a paying client pays you for a pin sharp pictures of highly detailed shot of a subject with a movement for an advertising purposes) is to catch dynamic movement and to have everything pin sharp then it is a different story.

The reason why most studio heads can't freeze motion is simple. Most people who buy them don't need them to freeze motion. It is a specific task which requires a specific equipment / tool. But that is not really full picture also, because (one of) the best tool to freeze motion are speedlights (flashguns) on low power. However, the problem with them is light quality (limited light modifiers) and light quantity (limited power). There are ways to make them work though.

BTW if you are taking a picture of close up of a splashing water droplets they are not slow moving at all. Yes, if you are taking the same picture from afar, you don't need as slow flash duration. But in both circumstances it is the sudden (very short) light burst (fast light duration = a short light burst) much faster than your SS, which freezes the motion and not the shutter speed. You would probably need something like a 1/3000th of a second as your shutter speed (if not more) to freeze a highly detailed close up shot of a water droplet movement to have it absolutely pin sharp (and there is many more things that can influence it one way or another too). What is easier, set up a studio shot with 1/30000th of a second SS or to use your usual 1/125th SS and just use a strobe with short light duration?

To sum it up. It is not as simple to say "there should be no reason why a studio head cannot freeze" movement. It depends on so many variables.








PS I've had too much wine so I'll try to shut up now.
 
Last edited:
The problem is the long flash duration of the Interfit heads, that will be in the 1/300sec-ish region in terms of equivalent shutter speeds. Quoted flash durations are notoriously inaccurate, usually given as a t.5 time* in which case multiply by 2x or 3x to get a rough shutter speed equivalent. Eg, 1/1000sec t.5 has the action-stopping potential of a shutter speed around 1/500sec to 1/300sec. With conventional studio heads, the effective flash duration gets longer as power is reduced.

*Sometimes, you'll get a flash duration t.1 time quoted, and that is quite close to real shutter speed equivalents.
 
View attachment 29753 The unsharpened SOC but cropped and resized JPEG was taken on Nikon D3200 with the 18-55 kit lens so not the sharpest tool in the box but all I had at that time and probably defraction well set in at F16. The effective shutter speed would be 1/800 based on the T1 time (time for the flash to degrade to 10%) given in the Lighting Rumours link for the Lencartas. That could have been shortened to 1/900 by using full power but I didn't have room to move the lights back any further or have a filter to hand. I don't disagree that an even faster effective shutter speed by using speedlights adjusted to low power could be readily achieved. However, this dictates the requirement for a significant number of speedlights and/or ISO increase to replace/offset 400 w/s.
Perhaps the OP could clarify just how much or how little movement he is looking for. If he cannot achieve anything close to the 2 photos already in the thread, then there is an equipment or setting problem. Alternately, if he is indeed looking to kill any trace of movement stone dead, then the current equipment isn't going to do the job. A shot to illustrate the problem may help.
 
Last edited:
Yep, you could potentially shoot for a whole second and still freeze motion with flash. The key is: high flash power has a longer flash duration than a low flash power. A bit like momentum.

Get the lights as close to your subjects as you can and turn the power down.

Can't say whether your flash is capable of this but this is the general theory of flash power/duration and it's worth noting.
 
myshkin_ said:
Yep, you could potentially shoot for a whole second and still freeze motion with flash. The key is: high flash power has a longer flash duration than a low flash power. A bit like momentum.

Get the lights as close to your subjects as you can and turn the power down.

Can't say whether your flash is capable of this but this is the general theory of flash power/duration and it's worth noting.
Click to expand...
With flashguns and other IGBT flashes, that's correct, with traditional studio heads, the opposite is true (it's mentioned several times above), shorter durations are at higher power, however the 'short' durations aren't short at all compared to IGBT type flashes.
 
Is there a list anywhere of which speedlights/ studio stobes are IGBT controlled? Or is it the case that if it's not Thyristor, it's likely to be IGBT controlled?
 
Last edited:
HarveyM said:
Is there a list anywhere of which speedlights/ studio stobes are IGBT controlled? Or is it the case that if it's not Thyristor, it's likely to be IGBT controlled?
Click to expand...
All flashguns/ speedlights are IGBT. Only a handful of studio heads /monolights are IGBT controlled, they're likely to be advertised as such or their name will allude to the fact Superfast etc. the other clue will be that they'll sometimes be ETTL compatible (though the Superfast aren't)
 
HoppyUK said:
Short answer, your best bet is probably the SB700 at half power, or quarter power - should be fast enough. Push ISO if needs be for good exposure.
Click to expand...
Agreed. SB700 in close, at reduced power as the main light to freeze the motion. 1/2 power should do it for slower hair (~1/1000 effective SS). Other lights may be used for fill/"ambient;" but if used they may allow some blur back into the image.
If you can run the SB in TTL/rear curtain that will put the "frozen" part on top. Your best bet here is probably to use the D300 as commander for the SB and have the other heads triggered optically. Another option would be to use the SB in HSS via CLS, but that eliminates the use of the other heads.

The harder part is going to be modifying the SB so it's no too hard without eating up too much light. The best bet here is probably going to be bouncing the light off a nearby wall or a black umbrella.
 
sk66 said:
...
If you can run the SB in TTL/rear curtain that will put the "frozen" part on top...
Click to expand...
Sorry but that's totally 'wrong'.
No matter how hard we try, we can't kill this myth. 2nd curtain sync ensures that the flash exposure occurs at the end (ish*) of the movement, so the ambient lit trail of movement would end at the 'frozen' image. For a vehicle, runner, snooker ball etc. that's required. For a random movement, it's totally unnecessary, and whether the flash or ambient exposure is 'on top' is just down to whichever is the brighter. The idea that 2nd curtain somehow stamps an image on top of any movement propagates because people don't understand what's happening with the 2 separate exposures.
It also only kicks in at shutter speeds longer than 1/30.
And if the problem is the flash burn itself capturing movement (as here), then 2nd curtain sync is a total red herring.

*you can alter the timing with some triggers! but the flash actually fires a smidge before the 2nd curtain begins to close.
 
Phil V said:
Sorry but that's totally 'wrong'.
No matter how hard we try, we can't kill this myth. 2nd curtain sync ensures that the flash exposure occurs at the end (ish*) of the movement, so the ambient lit trail of movement would end at the 'frozen' image. For a vehicle, runner, snooker ball etc. that's required. For a random movement, it's totally unnecessary, and whether the flash or ambient exposure is 'on top' is just down to whichever is the brighter.
Click to expand...
I did make the assumption that the primary flash exposure would be brighter... it's rather necessary if you want it to freeze motion. It is fairly irrelevant with random motion because there is no "beginning/end," but I was thinking of whipping hair ("throwing hair") as mentioned by the OP; and things like jumps ("moving extremities"). Quite a bit less random than someone shaking their head back and forth as you may have been envisioning (and easier to capture/time).

It also only kicks in at shutter speeds longer than 1/30.
Click to expand...
I have never seen an OEM specification for this... but PW claims 1/125 for Nikon. Obviously, the more closely spaced the shutters are, the less difference it makes.

And if the problem is the flash burn itself capturing movement (as here), then 2nd curtain sync is a total red herring.
Click to expand...
That's not exactly what I was talking about though. I was talking about putting the short duration SB exposure "on top of" the slower head's "fill" lighting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top