Freelance, freelance, freelance.

[srichards]

Staffordshire uni are on this with their entrepreneurship in creative arts degrees.

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/undergradua...he_creative_and_cultural_industries/index.jsp

It's basically aimed at someone wanting to run their own business in whatever area they study.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I think that's a creative solution actually... I still can't help but think we have a decent system as it is though... HND and Honours pathways. The real issue is a government that is so firmly against creative HE education in this country. They're obsessed with STEM subjects and treat the creative industries like crap despite it being worth billions to the economy. I do commend Staffs for doing that though, as it fills a gap.. but it's a gap that shouldn't exist in the first place. You could easily make a HND run in the same way

 

[srichards]

STEM subjects?

If I hadn't already got one now virtually worthless degree I could be quite tempted by Staffs' offering

 

[Cagey75]

Wow, and I'm not even involved!


My feeling is, and tbh I haven't read all rants, which is what they are in the end as we all like to push 'our' ways and beliefs - you cannot expect a photographer [and please, less of the "tog" or "grad] to comply within rules that haven't even been put to them. If you hire a bunch of photographers, be it students or aspiring freelancers, or whatever - If you don't actually lay down some ground rules, if you don't give them a very specific method/style/overall end look ... then YOU are at fault. It's that simple. Hire them ... then tell them what they have to do! How hard is that? If they're gone "artsy fartsy" - maybe it's because they think they should? they're trying to impress?? pin them dooooon!

I am not, nor ever have been an "art student" btw, just to clarify, not that I should have to ...

 

[joescrivens]

STEM subjects?

Science, technology, engineering and maths

 

[Pookeyhead]

My feeling is, and tbh I haven't read all rants, which is what they are in the end as we all like to push 'our' ways and beliefs -

I hate that... why must it be a rant? Why can't it be a debate? Does it look like I'm ranting? Are there capital letters and exclamation marks? It seems that if you post more than 200 words it's a rant.

 

[POAH]

Science, technology, engineering and maths

Yeah degrees that are actually worth while lol

Where the money should be going.

 

[Byker28i]

Because most the students we take on can't cope with hundreds of images at once and tight deadlines....

No wonder they go off and work in an office some where....

6/10 for the rant

Is it because they can earn as much in an office job without any pressure? Sometimes I think we have mollycoddled our children too much (but probably every generation has said that).

 

[DT01]

I hate that... why must it be a rant? Why can't it be a debate? Does it look like I'm ranting? Are there capital letters and exclamation marks? It seems that if you post more than 200 words it's a rant.

Not at all. I found what you have written to be both interesting and enlightening. Thank you!

 

[Daryl]

In regards to to uni's and collages.

I did 9 years working all sorts... then early 90's jobs were getting harder to find. i needed to get the bit of paper to even get interviewed and show portfolio.

I got excepted at 2 London colls and one in Poole and one up Norf... I went to all and looked round.
They all did basics and history and background to pphotography in first year... no probs..
It was the rest that was a shock.... all laid back arty tree bark stuff. Oh an students doing street stuff they thought was hip..

Only the college in middleborough did the last year where you had to shoot 3 jobs from 35mm/ 3 medium format, 3 large format (5x4 or 10x8 neg) 3 in tranny and 3 digital as it expensive and in its infancy. Still have my first CF card 62meg.../hehehehehehe

spending a month on one print for portfolio was daft.... Middleborough course was set so you did all disaplins and choose your subjects.... fashion, pack shoots, archetecture etc etc.

All had to be costed and worked to a deadline. screw up or miss the deadline you lost points. really late in getting stuff in you got 0! you had to get the costings right as well and produce with finished work and invoice etc..

and staff werent hippy types, more like South Afrcan Rugby coaches. Screw up or turn out crap they would tell you and the world.

Love it.

 

[flook999]

This has been a fascinating and informative debate. My position, as a father of a 3rd year photography degree student, and with hindsight, is that the separation between HND and degree is very well set out by Pookey. My daughter is doing a commercial photography degree, which we, or at least I, understood would provide her with the technical skills to succeed in the commercial world, whilst also allowing a more in depth academic understanding of the genre to be developed than the HND route, a best of both worlds scenario.

3 years on from that decision, and I find myself very concerned that this aspiration has not been achieved. The practical tuition has been extremely limited, and despite the sales pitch, the commercial aspect of running a business has barely been touched upon.

Maybe things will improve this year, but so far I've seen little evidence of the "step up" Pookey describes.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Maybe things will improve this year, but so far I've seen little evidence of the "step up" Pookey describes.

No two degrees are identical, but you'd have to define industry really. To me, preparing graduates for industry means getting them to understand promoting their own work, getting published, getting exhibited, winning high profile competitions, fully understanding copyright and moral and intellectual rights, how to sell work, license work. It also includes networking with high profile practitioners in their field, and securing an assisting job, preferably in London.

That prepared our graduates for what most of our students aspire to, which is fashion, high end advertising, editorial and documentary or fine art.

Preparing graduates from a HND would mean business studies sessions that result in graduating with a tested business plan ready to go to investors, high levels of technical skill with a wife range of equipment. The ability to hit teh ground running with most photoshoot scenarios. Networking with more commercial studios and design houses or publishers and agents. The ability to promote yourself. Stronger personal development in terms of S.M.A.R.T planning and S.W.O.T analysis.

The two are very different. The HND is more likely to get you commercial work and better able to prepare you for your own business. A BA (Hons) is about gaining access to the right circles and the right people, and being to able to impress them with a portfolio and getting a foot into the door of part of the industry that is driven by networking as much as anything else.

 

[Richard King]

A BA (Hons) is about gaining access to the right circles and the right people, and being to able to impress them with a portfolio and getting a foot into the door of part of the industry that is driven by networking as much as anything else.

So who you know is more important than being a great photographer then

You talk of this high art type photography like it is an elitist exercise, which is a shame. It is iunfact very assessable. The internet is a great leveller

Bottom line is that above the fold advertisment is feeling the squeeze, the budgets are not there like they were - that applies to copywriters, ideas generators, marketing gurus, photographers, designers - in the real world, the people with the wallets are making much more rational desisions

 

[Tugster]

Daryl,

If you need anything over in Yorkshire, Give me a shout

 

[jon ryan]

Ditto Somerset

 

[Pookeyhead]

So who you know is more important than being a great photographer then

You talk of this high art type photography like it is an elitist exercise, which is a shame. It is iunfact very assessable. The internet is a great leveller

Bottom line is that above the fold advertisment is feeling the squeeze, the budgets are not there like they were - that applies to copywriters, ideas generators, marketing gurus, photographers, designers - in the real world, the people with the wallets are making much more rational desisions

Not at all, no... but it's very important to network with people who can make things happen. There are many hundreds of hons. graduates that make a yearly exodus to London every year... we're just giving them an advantage we see as important. Networking is important in all walks of life surely. There's nothing elitist about it at all... just practical. None of that will get you anywhere if you are not a great photographer, but a great photographer that knows how to network will have an advantage, yes.

All advertising, and all industry is facing a squeeze, but whatever money is spent will go to those that know how to network well. There are thousands upon thousands of talented photographers out there - sometimes standing out is what gets you the work. You can't stand out with a great portfolio if you show it to no one

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

Maybe you were on the wrong course. We do teach all the above, but it's not priority number 1, no. It's an honours degree... an academic qualification... what you needed was a more vocational qualification like a HND. Blame whoever advised you that a degree would be ideal for someone who only wants to learn technique and equipment. Degrees are designed fr the real photographic world... just not the one you wanted to head into and certainly not highly commercial work like School photography, weddings or press/sports work. BTW.. that was not meant as a slight on those career paths either... just a fact. Obviously a degree will have a more academic flavour that lends itself to highly conceptual work. An HND will teach you how to work as a commercial photographer MUCH better.

I think the honours degree was a logical step for me, as I was told doing a HND would be going sideways (after doing A levels), so maybe your right as the advice given was not brilliant for someone wanting to learn more photo skills. However technique and the equipment was not the only thing I wanted out of the course, I just felt that the learning aspect could of been pushed more for those who wanted to learn about the basics - especially in the first year to give students a solid ground of understanding to work and develop from. Especially as 2nd and 3rd years are very involved in conceptual work and for me were more or less 'ok go get on with your assignments', it would of helped to have some kind of teaching fitted in somewhere into the course to aid our own photography and pick up new skills.

Also when I started the degree I was not sure which path my photography would take, but I wanted to keep my options open, I enjoy creating my own work, otherwise I wouldn't of completed the course, just it would of been better if it was not so dismissive of commercial/business side to photography.

Just to clarify it was not just me that felt this about the degree course I did, both young and old students on the course felt ripped off by the end. But I guess at the end of the day unless your going freelance or want to be an artist, from what I've seen you need a degree - unless you find someone who's happy to teach the basics of photography too...

Which then goes back to the point that degree courses aren't/won't provide training from the basics to advanced photography skills because they have this high expectation that everyone knows everything and only is on the course to discuss art theory, critique work and to write a dissertation. A degree is considered the highest level of education to employers, and I can see why there is frustration from those employing or hiring graduates expecting them to be fully prepared for the working photography world.

I can't see the point of a degree that doesn't prepare the student for the workplace - when saddled with £9k a year debt, being good at 'theory' doesn't cut it for most unless they have well off parents. There's no substitute for workplace experience, but unfortunately these days unless you've got a degree you can't even get in the queue for a step on the first rung of the ladder. Where I work we had >400 applications for a £18k admin job and ALL of them had a degree.

Exactly my point and disappointment.

Yep.. no problem. Honours Degrees are academic in nature, and while we do a great deal of technical delivery in level 4, the remainder of the course does concentrate on the academic side, and the thematic side. We spend more time critiquing work and examining the concepts and narratives of work rather than judging it's technical merit. We demand technical excellence of course, but you are far more responsible for continuing your level 4 tech tuition and in level 5 the tech delivery drops off.

There are subjects such as critical studies that deliver art history and conceptual ideas on themes such as gender, representation, intertextuality, binary opposites, cultural issues... stuff that effects visual communication. There is also a great deal of research to be done in level 5 and 6 leading up to the dissertation, which again is based on strong academic writing and research.

The fact is, the higher up the educational chain you go, the less hands on technical tuition you will receive... in fact, the less tuition you receive full stop as a degree demands that you head your own research and learning to an extent with tutors being more about facilitating and aiding your own practice. By the time you reach Masters level it's almost all research that backs up your own photographic projects. Go on to PhD level and you'll never see a camera That's pure research.

If you were specific and clear in your intentions and still advised to go onto a degree, then I feel you were ill advised. Personally I would have advised you to do a HND even though my college does not offer one... because I recruit ethically. Some colleges and unis however.. do not, especially in this climate where we are increasingly being forced to treat education as a business.

That fact is though, if you want to shoot weddings, social portraiture, press work, forensic imaging, event photography of any other type of photography that can be classed as commercial, then you do not need a honours degree... it's a waste of 3 years for you. HNDs are designed to intensively teach the vocational, technical and practical skills you need to work commercially in this arena, whereas a honours degree is designed to give you a broader, and deeper art based education that concentrates on the academic side of producing art.

The course you're talking about sounds very similar to the one I did so I am just assuming a majority of BA(Hons) Photography courses are heavily based around theory and art. I did not have any problems with the theory, writing etc bits of the course, I just have the opinion that why should those wanting to learn about the technical side be told to go do a vocational college course. When clearly degrees being as expensive as they are should be providing more of a practical side of learning than just being heavily academic.
Fair enough that once you get to masters/phd it is all research/projects, but with an undergraduate degree you'd expect to start from the bottom without teaching you to suck eggs that is...

I disagree

If you go to uni, to study to be a photographer, then you should learn what people who do the HND learn and call this "basics". You then take the basics, and learn them to a more exacting standard. On top of that, you can then go on and learn the more arty stuff.

You don't need a degree to be an artist, you need a passion for art and the skills with your hands and eyes.

You need to learn the skills first, you then need innate artistic skill too. The combination of the two, if honed will produce a world class artistic photographer.

I see education and skills like a pyramid. you lay the foundations (the basic skills). The bigger the base, the higher the pyramid can be built

It seems the education establishment like to overlook the foundations, and just like to build skyscrapers, hoping the while thing doesn't come tumbling down when the poor student is released into the real world

This is exactly what I mean!

P.S. Sorry if i've waffled on just get very passionate about this subject

 

[Pookeyhead]

I just have the opinion that why should those wanting to learn about the technical side be told to go do a vocational college course.

Because those are the courses that best teach the technical, and honours degrees (in all subjects) are more academic.

When clearly degrees being as expensive as they are should be providing more of a practical side of learning than just being heavily academic.

No.. because degrees are more academic and HNDs are more vocational.

I'm not sure what to say here. You want a qualification that's more technical and less academic. That would be a HND then. Whoever told you a HND is a sideways move from a A level is talking utter nonsense.

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

I don't see where I said I wanted a qualification that is more technical and less academic?

Just that it would be good if the degrees are restructured to make room for the technical/business aspect that many degree students would like/sometimes need alongside the academic study. This would possibly make a better more well rounded course.

An HND may well be the right course for the basics as it stands, but you'd think the price of degree education should at least give teaching to those who want it...

Anyway I'm only speaking from the experience of the course I did, and the tutors I had...I got the degree in the end so I shouldn't complain too much

 

[KIPAX]

And thanks Suz for the dig about boring headshots...guess you have never looked at our work and style... so it seems your attitude is like that of the freelancers we sometimes get.

a lot more to it than just head shots.....
.

Said it before.. worth saying again.. Love your style of school photography daryl... wish you had done my kids schools.. they are boring head shots

 

[flook999]

.

The two are very different. The HND is more likely to get you commercial work and better able to prepare you for your own business. A BA (Hons) is about gaining access to the right circles and the right people, and being to able to impress them with a portfolio and getting a foot into the door of part of the industry that is driven by networking as much as anything else.

The degree my daughter is on is specifically titled "commercial photography" yet appears no different in its content/aims to the degree route you describe. With hindsight, the HND route would probably have been a better option. Poor advice given perhaps, but also a mis-leading title?

 

[Pookeyhead]

I don't see where I said I wanted a qualification that is more technical and less academic?

Just that it would be good if the degrees are restructured to make room for the technical/business aspect that many degree students would like/sometimes need alongside the academic study. This would possibly make a better more well rounded course.

That content is in there of course, but it's a smaller aspect of a degree course than it is a HND. As part of the requirement of a degree is writing a 80-10000 word dissertation, and doing shed loads of research you get more of the technical and business side on a HND, whereas the industry stuff on a BA revolves more around personal promotion and networking.

An HND may well be the right course for the basics as it stands,

No. no... an HND is not basic and you will not only learn the basics. Higher nationals, like Foundation Degrees, are just degree level courses with the dissertation and research elements stripped away essentially. There's nothing basic about a HND if it's taught well. In fact, you'll leave with more of a technical education from a HND than you will a honours degree.

but you'd think the price of degree education should at least give teaching to those who want it...

So you think because we're force to charge more, that we somehow shoehorn more content in? We teach the same degree as we taught last year. Last year it cost 3149, this year it's £8k.. that's not because it's a better course, it's because this stupid government has stopped the HEFCE funding of teaching staff. Prior to this government, HE teaching staff wages were subsidised, but now they're not, so now the college or uni itself has to pay lecturer's wages, whereas before they were subsidised by government. Students pay more because we have no option but to charge that... otherwise they'd not be able to employ any lecturers!

Blame whoever voted conservative.

 

[phil-t]

and don't get me started on Uni grads..... Degree in what??? Arty Farty crap that will never make them rich.... Teachers should teach the basics and teach them about the commercial World and about tight deadlines...

I can tell you that Engineering graduates we take on are assumed to know nothing, the degree is only to show they have the capacity to learn and will have very basic practical theory skills.. We take them on as Juniors, and progress them at their own rate, some take 3+ years before they've proven they can take on a 'project' on it's own.. Mind you, that doesn't stop them thinking they know it all.. But we never stiffle them, we just ask that they prove themselves in a controlled manner (i.e. on inconsequential internal projects)

Obviously we take on grads as it's cost effective...

If we want someone to jump straight in and perform to our high standards, we firstly up the advertised pay, and secondly we take no degree or other CV evidence at face value, we put them through a days rigorous assessment..

I do feel your pain, I refused to buy this years School photo's, the crops where terrible, and (for the last 3 years), they've PP'd the images terribly which makes the kids look like they have foundation on, the overall tonal range is exceedingly limited.

And also, I have sympathy with you on your own desire to uphold your reputation when you've freelanced, I am also like that, but from all the new hires I've had to deal with, that sentiment is few and far between!

 

[POAH]

No.. because degrees are more academic and HNDs are more vocational.

Yeah that would have worked really well for mine


I prefer the traditional shots of the kids. None of this stupid posing that makes for a poorly put together panoramic print that i don't want on my wall.

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

That content is in there of course, but it's a smaller aspect of a degree course than it is a HND. As part of the requirement of a degree is writing a 80-10000 word dissertation, and doing shed loads of research you get more of the technical and business side on a HND, whereas the industry stuff on a BA revolves more around personal promotion and networking.



No. no... an HND is not basic and you will not only learn the basics. Higher nationals, like Foundation Degrees, are just degree level courses with the dissertation and research elements stripped away essentially. There's nothing basic about a HND if it's taught well. In fact, you'll leave with more of a technical education from a HND than you will a honours degree.



So you think because we're force to charge more, that we somehow shoehorn more content in? We teach the same degree as we taught last year. Last year it cost 3149, this year it's £8k.. that's not because it's a better course, it's because this stupid government has stopped the HEFCE funding of teaching staff. Prior to this government, HE teaching staff wages were subsidised, but now they're not, so now the college or uni itself has to pay lecturer's wages, whereas before they were subsidised by government. Students pay more because we have no option but to charge that... otherwise they'd not be able to employ any lecturers!

Blame whoever voted conservative.

It's not about squeezing more content in, it's about restructuring so it's more balanced...a balance of technical and theory...A lot of photography degree courses are named as specific to one thing, but a general BA (Hons) Photography course would suggest it's not geared towards one particular area. It's true that with any type of degree there would be a large amount of writing and research - typically a dissertation, but there needs to be a balance about what is taught away from the writing otherwise it just becomes a photographic art course (which in many ways they are).

With an HND being considered a lower qualification than a honours degree, you'd naturally expect a higher qualification to be providing what the lower courses already are but at a more advanced level. Not almost throwing away the technical and learning aspects that makes up a massive chunk of photography.

I understand that the price rise is not to do with the course improving etc, and I agree that it is the governments fault. But regardless whether students are paying £3K or £8K there could be room for more learning in degree qualifications as you said they are very research based.

But you have sold the HND to me pretty well, I don't think they even have a photography one at my local college so probably why I have never heard about them.

 

[tiler65]

Yeah that would have worked really well for mine


I prefer the traditional shots of the kids. None of this stupid posing that makes for a poorly put together panoramic print that i don't want on my wall.

My panoramics sold brilliantly.

 

[POAH]

My panoramics sold brilliantly.

they never offered anything else.

 

[Daryl]

Ok, so you said your bit about the grads, which i only used for post work.. the freelancers that cause probs are togs like you lot... Wedding toggers and sole trader. why cant they get it right... they get the training. They have a brief and have guides and samples to boot....

still get screw ups...

sizing all over the place and told again told again to crop/size in camera.....

some interview great..portfolio great.... Some techie skills superb shots but can not interact and get the best out of clients..... Others are good at getting client/kids to laugh , smile but let down on lighting etc.....

and the togs I never have a problem with get the work spot on don't want to travel or not do more than a few days a week.....

finding the right people is never easy.

Wish i could clone one and have her in Manchester, Oxford and Doon sooth!!!!!

 

[Pookeyhead]

It's true that with any type of degree there would be a large amount of writing and research - typically a dissertation, but there needs to be a balance about what is taught away from the writing otherwise it just becomes a photographic art course (which in many ways they are).

You've just answered your own question. That's exactly what a honours degree is. There are specialist degrees. We used to run a Wildlife and Environmental Photography Degree course, but that didn't have much more technical input either. That had extra modules on biology and animal behaviour, sustainability and ecological issues, things like that... a degree is an academic qualification. It seems you want a degree to be something else. Then it wouldn't be an honours degree. Take away the "honours" and you're left with a FdA or HND. So doing that to a honours degree programme would be pointless as we already have degrees and diplomas that fit your requirements. They're called Foundation Degrees and Higher National Diplomas These aren't lesser qualification, they're just regarded as more vocational in nature. For some reason though, lately, society seems to insist that everyone has a BA(Hons) or a BSc(Hons) to so much as get a job. You don't. The point of a degree is not to demonstrate that you are an expert on your field.. that's what post grad qualifications are for. What a BA (Hons) does is demonstrate that you can go beyond the vocational and you have demonstrated an extra level of dedication to your chosen field by not just "doing" it, but researching and writing about it.

There's nothing wrong with HNDs. In fact... the photographic industry prefers it (according to the AoP anyway). You fo a degree for more personal reasons.. well, one in an art based subject anyway. Science and technology subjects are another matter, but an arts degree is an academic qualification.

With an HND being considered a lower qualification than a honours degree, you'd naturally expect a higher qualification to be providing what the lower courses already are but at a more advanced level. Not almost throwing away the technical and learning aspects that makes up a massive chunk of photography.

Firstly.. there's that prejudice against HND again... lower qualification according to whom?

I understand that the price rise is not to do with the course improving etc, and I agree that it is the governments fault. But regardless whether students are paying £3K or £8K there could be room for more learning in degree qualifications as you said they are very research based.

There's no room for anything more, no. If there was room, we'd be using it already. If you want more of one thing, you'll have to lose something else, and what you suggest would leave me to believe that the something in question would be the academic side... and then what are you left with? You'll be left with something that looks terribly like a HND or FdA.

Common feedback I hear all the time this: People like the idea of having a BA (Hons) but they want the actual course to be something else. I never got this point of view. There are already courses that sound like exactly the thing you refer to... but they are not called a Bachelor of Arts Degree... that's all.

But you have sold the HND to me pretty well, I don't think they even have a photography one at my local college so probably why I have never heard about them.

HNDs are great. You'll get a really solid technical grounding and practical skills. If you want to gain a degree afterwards, you can probably enter a BA (Hons) program at level 5 too. More expensive that way, but you can do it later if you feel the HND lacked some part of your education... but from the sounds of it, I feel that will not be the case.

 

[Richard King]

So a HND trains you to be a photographer, who uses a camera to make photographs... and a degree trains you to be what?

 

[Richard King]

Ok, so you said your bit about the grads, which i only used for post work.. the freelancers that cause probs are togs like you lot... Wedding toggers and sole trader. why cant they get it right... they get the training. They have a brief and have guides and samples to boot....

still get screw ups...

sizing all over the place and told again told again to crop/size in camera.....

some interview great..portfolio great.... Some techie skills superb shots but can not interact and get the best out of clients..... Others are good at getting client/kids to laugh , smile but let down on lighting etc.....

and the togs I never have a problem with get the work spot on don't want to travel or not do more than a few days a week.....

finding the right people is never easy.

Sounds like you need to go back and look at the processes, even if that includes, being really prescriptive about flash placement, use of lens, camera placement, modifier usage and the like

It sounds like you are looking for an operator of a glorified photo-booth. If this is the case, remove as many of the variables out of the equation, so that you are left with a very clean formula that cant go wrong

 

[Pookeyhead]

So a HND trains you to be a photographer, who uses a camera to make photographs... and a degree trains you to be what?

The same, but one with a greater appreciation of art, culture and visual communication; a photographer better able to innovate, challenge and produce work with greater thought about the messages communicated visually. Therefore documentary, editorial, fashion, fine art and advertising.

 

[jon ryan]

The same, but one with a greater appreciation of art, culture and visual communication; a photographer better able to innovate, challenge and produce work with greater thought about the messages communicated visually. Therefore documentary, editorial, fashion, fine art and advertising.

I think that may be classed as 'opinion'. You forgot to add: '...and with a debt of £30,000.' Still, the debt probably won't matter much because few people earn enough from photography to bring them to a level of income that will require the debt to be repaid.

Do you honestly think that three years doing a degree is the best way to become a photographer?

 

[Richard King]

The same, but one with a greater appreciation of art, culture and visual communication; a photographer better able to innovate, challenge and produce work with greater thought about the messages communicated visually. Therefore documentary, editorial, fashion, fine art and advertising.

I thought you inferred that you learn more of the practicable stuff on the HND course

 

[Pookeyhead]

I thought you inferred that you learn more of the practicable stuff on the HND course

It does.. my comment was in answer to this

So a HND trains you to be a photographer, who uses a camera to make photographs... and a degree trains you to be what?

I think that may be classed as 'opinion'. You forgot to add: '...and with a debt of £30,000.' Still, the debt probably won't matter much because few people earn enough from photography to bring them to a level of income that will require the debt to be repaid.

Do you honestly think that three years doing a degree is the best way to become a photographer?

Same fees for HND.. you just save a year's fees due to it being a 2 year course. I'm not including fees in any of these discussions as HE education is very, very expensive no matter your choices.

As for whether it's the best way, I think we're going around in circles aren't we? It depends what you want to do. Commercial photography where technical skill is the main requirement? No, probably not, a HND is better there. Editorial, advertising, fashion and documentary, yes it's definitely worth it, because you have to be a keen thinking, innovative visual artists to be good in those fields.

 

[DemiLion]

The same, but one with a greater appreciation of art, culture and visual communication; a photographer better able to innovate, challenge and produce work with greater thought about the messages communicated visually. Therefore documentary, editorial, fashion, fine art and advertising.

Seriously, you need to get over yourself just a tiny bit.

 

[jon ryan]

It does.. my comment was in answer to this





Same fees for HND.. you just save a year's fees due to it being a 2 year course. I'm not including fees in any of these discussions as HE education is very, very expensive no matter your choices.

As for whether it's the best way, I think we're going around in circles aren't we? It depends what you want to do. Commercial photography where technical skill is the main requirement? No, probably not, a HND is better there. Editorial, advertising, fashion and documentary, yes it's definitely worth it, because you have to be a keen thinking, innovative visual artists to be good in those fields.

Editorial photography is something I can speak about. I know lots of editorial photographers. I am an editorial photographer. Off hand I can't think of a single one with a degree in photography. Many have degrees in other subjects - English is possibly the most common - and a lot naturally have some sort of journalism/photojournalism qualification.

Out of curiosity, have you ever worked as a full time photographer?

 

[Pookeyhead]

Why's that? Those genres need more than just technical brilliance, they require ingenuity and innovation. Commercial photography requires immense technical skill primarily. Do you disagree? I'm not saying yu NEED a degree.. I'm saying a degree is probably better suited. Particularly if you shoot editorial portraiture. Having a better understanding of subjects like representation are bound to influence your images.

I have yes.. mainly commercial and industrial ironically.

 

[jon ryan]

Ah! Knew I'd filed it somewhere...

Will a degree make it easier to become a professional photographer? (Archant, Professional Photographer, May 2010)

Over the last 27 years of reviewing portfolios, the line I have most repeated is: “These pictures got you your degree, but they’re not going to get you work.” The young, ambitious photographer is instantly confused. They’ve got a first or 2:1 with these pictures, and been told they’re good. But they haven’t been told how tough the competition is, what is expected when presenting their work, how to present themselves, or most importantly, how to convince someone to risk money on them.

It amazes me that colleges do not have client presentation as an essential module in any course.

Does your institution offer this, Pookeyhead? Do you think it may be a good idea?

it shocks me how often I’ve been in a position to commission work and been shown a portfolio of images which have no connection to the project I’m working on. Black and white images of European wind turbines are never going to get you work on a fashion magazine, but the photographer who showed me these didn’t understand why. She had never considered what the client was looking for or how she might fit their requirements. This was despite the fact that she not only had a photographic degree, but was also working on a master’s. I suggested she work out who she wanted her clients to be, look at her work and see how realistic her expectations were. This had never occurred to her before.

This one I can identify with. I remember going through applications for a junior staff job on a paper. We had asked candidates to submit four images that they thought would go well in the paper. We got mono urban landscapes, arty nude studio poses, waterfalls and waves by the thousand... instant bin.

One final paragraph from that article:

Expectation is the biggest problem with photographers leaving colleges, art schools and universities. Their expectations are largely unrealistic, unfocused or ill-informed or, at worst, a combination of all three. Three years should be enough time to produce well-informed young professionals. A similar time spent assisting an experienced professional would create a very different end result. By working in the real world, the harsh realities of the business can be quickly learned. Client relationships, budgeting, working to deadlines and shoot behaviour are essential skills to master.

Sums it up nicely.

 

[jon ryan]

I have yes.. mainly commercial and industrial ironically.

Care to expand on that a little? How long ago? Film, digital, both? Did you do your own processing? What qualifications did you gain before becoming a photographer?