Freddie the seal mauled by a dog...

sphexx said:
It depends. I cited that case earlier where an elderly woman was killed by her own toy breed dogs :(.

Possibly another example. My previous small fell terrier when he was young used ’run up’ my brother’s body and perch on his shoulder, more or less without warning. It would obviously have been feasible for him to get to someone’s throat if he was so inclined -- he wasn’t.
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That case is exceptionally unusual and I belive she fell into their enclosure where there were nearly half a dozen of them.

This case its just two...and the dogs weren't even in their territory. I think they've taken her to ground first which would require a powerful and aggressive dog.

Judging by the picture of the dog being removed from the home...its a fair old size.

Maybe she did try to return them, approach them, maybe she misread their body language but usually that doesn't result in being mauled to death.
 
sphexx said:
No I don’t. I’m just saying we don’t know the facts and probably never will.

I would also say you would like a law that says all dogs should be on the lead at all times but while that woukd adversely affect most dogs and owners it wouldn’t affect the very problem dogs and owners that need to be controlled.
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In public spaces yes I would. Maybe even a number of dog free zones or times of day where dogs aren't allowed into certain public/outdoor spaces.

A significant number of people find dogs intimidating and a lead helps the owner control the dog in public areas to prevent it approaching/attacking other people and indeed other dogs and wildlife.

Why should I, and others, have to endure other peoples dogs coming up to us and jumping at us.
 
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SFTPhotography said:
In public spaces yes I would. Maybe even a number of dog free zones or times of day where dogs aren't allowed.

A significant number of people find dogs intimidating and a lead helps the owner control the dog in public areas to prevent it approaching/attacking other people and indeed other dogs and wildlife.

Why should I, and others, have to endure other peoples dogs coming up to us and jumping at us.
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I think people who find dogs intimidating should be identified (preferably when young) and go on a re-training course because they are a danger to the well- being of others ;).

Some years ago I was out with my (small) dog off the lead. His tempersment was fine and he was quite uninterested in people or other dogs. Suddenly there appeared about 200 feet away a ten (?) year old boy and elderly woman. The boy started screaming in a strange high pitched voice on seeing my dog and hid behind the woman, still screaming. My dog ran over to investigate. Actually nothing happened because he stopped short and they didn’t do anything else until I could get over and put him on the lead, but you can see if the dog had been bigger and/or of the woman had lashed out it could have ended differently. And being on a short lead would have made no difference had we rounded a corner and met.
 
sphexx said:
I think people who find dogs intimidating should be identified (preferably when young) and go on a re-training course because they are a danger to the well- being of others ;).

Some years ago I was out with my (small) dog off the lead. His tempersment was fine and he was quite uninterested in people or other dogs. Suddenly there appeared about 200 feet away a ten (?) year old boy and elderly woman. The boy started screaming in a strange high pitched voice on seeing my dog and hid behind the woman, still screaming. My dog ran over to investigate. Actually nothing happened because he stopped short and they didn’t do anything else until I could get over and put him on the lead, but you can see if the dog had been bigger and/or of the woman had lashed out it could have ended differently. And being on a short lead would have made no difference had we rounded a corner and met.
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Can I ask why you think those who are intimidated by dogs are a danger to the well being of others? Also can you understand why that view might be a cause of the problem and not the solution?

In the scenario here you had a dog off the lead, and had it been on the lead it wouldn't have even gotten close. You have to understand, a lot of people do not like being near them- they're not like you.

In my dream society I would like to see dog ownership licenced and regulated the same way fire arms are. Not all gun owners killed people, in fact a very small number did...but we regulated them heavily out of society as a result. The same should apply to dogs.

And on that note basically only those in agriculture or emergency services would have one - and their numbers would be greatly deminshed in our society.

However it's just a dream and in reality hoping dog owners would think more about other people, who may not like dog's, and less about their own wants for their dog isn't too big a leap to make.

And now we are back to where we always are .
 
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Does this person seem to be the sort who would poke dogs with a stick through a hole in the fence? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-56624119

SFTPhotography said:
In my dream society I would like to see dog ownership licenced and regulated the same way fire arms are. Not all gun owners killed people, in fact a very small number did...but we regulated them heavily out of society as a result. The same should apply to dogs.
Click to expand...

I should prefer too, that the only dogs would be working animals, owned by those with a professional requirement and allowed to keep them under strict rules and licenses. However I recognise that to be unreasonable and restrictive to individual freedoms, and would never actually suggest such a regime be implemented.

In the example given of the screaming child, they may have had an excellent reason for being terrified - like when I was bitten unprovoked by a school friends Alsatian/German shepherd when I was about 8 years old (I have a memory, possibly imagined, of its jaws going around my right hip from front to back). The dog thought I was in its territory, and my presence with the son of its owners counted for nothing. I'm not at all afraid of dogs, and if I know one is looking for affection then I'm happy to pat or stroke it, but I would simply prefer that they weren't kept as pets or allowed to run uncontrolled with humans.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Can I ask why you think those who are intimidated by dogs are a danger to the well being of others? Also can you understand why that view might be a cause of the problem and not the solution?

In the scenario here you had a dog off the lead, and had it been on the lead it wouldn't have even gotten close. You have to understand, a lot of people do not like being near them- they're not like you.

In my dream society I would like to see dog ownership licenced and regulated the same way fire arms are. Not all gun owners killed people, in fact a very small number did...but we regulated them heavily out of society as a result. The same should apply to dogs.

And on that note basically only those in agriculture or emergency services would have one - and their numbers would be greatly deminshed in our society.

However it's just a dream and in reality hoping dog owners would think more about other people, who may not like dog's, and less about their own wants for their dog isn't too big a leap to make.

And now we are back to where we always are .
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Have you not noticed the considerable rise in gun crime since pistols were (mainly) banned?
 
ancient_mariner said:
In the example given of the screaming child, they may have had an excellent reason for being terrified - like when I was bitten unprovoked by a school friends Alsatian/German shepherd when I was about 8 years old (I have a memory, possibly imagined, of its jaws going around my right hip from front to back).
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When I was even younger than you, under 4 years, I was attacked by a dog, probably a small one, and my clothing badly ripped. I don’t think I was bitten and the offending dog was killed by the family dog, who was described as being ‘part husky’ though in the photos he looks like one of those mountain sheep-guarding dogs. I don‘t have any recollection of this, only what I was told, but when young was always nervous ofterrier-type dogs so assume it was oneone of those.

I suppose my different attitude to dogs may be due both sides of my immediate family being dog owners and I grew up with dogs.

Regardless of anything else, I do think we owe a debt of gratitude to dogs for having domesticated us ;).
 
sphexx said:
then it could be possible to determine if these dogs were related to those.
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All I was saying is, that its highly unlikely they are looking for lab or GSD genes, both breeds are easily identifiable.
not so much if they are or contain Pit bull, could be a staffie maybe not ...

sphexx said:
I don’t know if you’ve read up on pit bulls in USA?
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That's a few thousand miles away and of no interest to me
 
sphexx said:
Have you not noticed the considerable rise in gun crime since pistols were (mainly) banned?
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Not in Scotland. Although this report is now 2 years old.
www.bbc.com

Firearm offences in Scotland 'lowest for 39 years'

Figures show that the 348 offences recorded in Scotland last year are the lowest since records began in 1980.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Then this one says the opposite....
www.thetimes.co.uk

Firearms statistics mask rise in serious gun crime

Serious gun crime in Scotland is on the rise with a marked increase in attempted murder, armed robbery and possession with intent to kill.Humza Yousaf, the justice secretary, lauded new figures showing that firearms offences were at their lowest level since 1980 but the statistics masked an increase
www.thetimes.co.uk www.thetimes.co.uk
 
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sphexx said:
Have you not noticed the considerable rise in gun crime since pistols were (mainly) banned?
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My point was that if something as potentially lethal as a gun is as heavily controlled as it is, so should dog ownership, dog breeding and dog use.

However the affront to civil liberties as was pointed out by @ancient_mariner earlier is grotesque...it wasn't deemed that when the gun controls were introduced. Nor are the licencing rules for driving, flying etc.

But dog ownership, particularly en-mass, is a serious issue and whilst I wish we were essentially free of the things in day to day life - we are not. But in a perfect world we would be IMHO and I'm not alone in that view either.

Dog owners I think need to show more consideration for non dog owners and other people. By all accounts, they are not universally loved and are often seen as malign.

Incidents like these two don't help.
 
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SFTPhotography said:
Why should I, and others, have to endure other peoples dogs coming up to us and jumping at us.
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How often does this happen to you?
I have to say despite coming across plenty of dogs when I'm out and about, and probably in my job being in approx 10 houses a week with dogs, I can't remember the last time a dog jumped up on me...
 
SFTPhotography said:
However the affront to civil liberties as was pointed out earlier is grotesque...it wasn't deemed that when the gun controls were introduced.
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It was among the shoot communities.
 
sphexx said:
I suppose my different attitude to dogs may be due both sides of my immediate family being dog owners and I grew up with dogs.
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My mother is still an avid dog-lover, and has repeatedly tried to persuade me to have a dog. At around the age of 11 or 12 we had a family holiday looking after both the house and welsh sheep dog of some rellies, and we had lots of fun with that particular dog - he had a lovely nature. I cited my experience because it's entirely reasonable for a child to be completely terrified of dogs, rather than to say why they should not be freely available. The attraction is obvious, but to me the negatives far outweight the positive.
 
SFTPhotography said:
A significant number of people find dogs intimidating and a lead helps the owner control the dog in public areas to prevent it approaching/attacking other people and indeed other dogs and wildlife.
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I agree with dogs being on a lead in public places, particularly when there are lots of people or other animals about ...
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
How often does this happen to you?
I have to say despite coming across plenty of dogs when I'm out and about, and probably in my job being in approx 10 houses a week with dogs, I can't remember the last time a dog jumped up on me...
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For us when out walking, probably 1 dog in 10 jumps up at one of us uncontrollably, and there's probably another 2 out of 10 that would jump if they were not discouraged from doing so (stepping back, hand on collar to hold it back etc). We've not had any aggressive dogs approach that were not on a lead - there's lots of livestock in the local fields, and an aggressive dog should not be off a lead around here.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Does this person seem to be the sort who would poke dogs with a stick through a hole in the fence? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-56624119



I should prefer too, that the only dogs would be working animals, owned by those with a professional requirement and allowed to keep them under strict rules and licenses. However I recognise that to be unreasonable and restrictive to individual freedoms, and would never actually suggest such a regime be implemented.

In the example given of the screaming child, they may have had an excellent reason for being terrified - like when I was bitten unprovoked by a school friends Alsatian/German shepherd when I was about 8 years old (I have a memory, possibly imagined, of its jaws going around my right hip from front to back). The dog thought I was in its territory, and my presence with the son of its owners counted for nothing. I'm not at all afraid of dogs, and if I know one is looking for affection then I'm happy to pat or stroke it, but I would simply prefer that they weren't kept as pets or allowed to run uncontrolled with humans.
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She looks a nice old lady who wouldn't say boo to a goose.

No, it's improbable she goaded the dog into attacking her. Dogs, like all animals, can be unpredictable.

The owner shares an element of blame for not having them under control but by and large a stray dog in a garden doesn't always end so tragically.

So, we come back to the old nature and nurture argument.

Which is why I believe dog ownership shouldn't be in the general public domain but as you say that's too draconian.

However the status quo just shouldn't and needn't continue.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
How often does this happen to you?
I have to say despite coming across plenty of dogs when I'm out and about, and probably in my job being in approx 10 houses a week with dogs, I can't remember the last time a dog jumped up on me...
Click to expand...
Maybe I exercise a lot.

Keeping away from dogs is something I do my utmost to do...but if the owner doesn't have it on a lead it can be tricky.

On another thread on here some dude was knocked off a bike because of an off the lead dog in a park.

Maybe it's the dogs way of telling me the feelings mutual.
 
ancient_mariner said:
For us when out walking, probably 1 dog in 10 jumps up at one of us uncontrollably, and there's probably another 2 out of 10 that would jump if they were not discouraged from doing so (stepping back, hand on collar to hold it back etc). We've not had any aggressive dogs approach that were not on a lead - there's lots of livestock in the local fields, and an aggressive dog should not be off a lead around here.
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Not too dissimilar to me :(
 
SFTPhotography said:
Maybe I exercise a lot.

Keeping away from dogs is something I do my utmost to do...but if the owner doesn't have it on a lead it can be tricky.

On another thread on here some dude was knocked off a bike because of an off the lead dog in a park.

Maybe it's the dogs way of telling me the feelings mutual.
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We watch a programme called dogs behaving (very badly).
Some of what we watch is unbelievable.
A doberman nearly knocked a guy of his bike, and he was on the road.
The majority of the time he is able to rectify a dogs behaviour, and by the end they're like a different dog. He's had problem huskys, great Danes, alsations etc. Dogs barking at people, jumping up,chasing other dogs etc etc.
Most of the issues he deals with are caused by a lack of training....and he's quick to tell people their dog is at risk of being destroyed if they don't take things seriously.
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
We watch a programme called dogs behaving (very badly).
Some of what we watch is unbelievable.
A doberman nearly knocked a guy of his bike, and he was on the road.
The majority of the time he is able to rectify a dogs behaviour, and by the end they're like a different dog. He's had problem huskys, great Danes, alsations etc. Dogs barking at people, jumping up,chasing other dogs etc etc.
Most of the issues he deals with are caused by a lack of training....and he's quick to tell people their dog is at risk of being destroyed if they don't take things seriously.
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Yeah I've seen that show. It's on a theme of supernanny.

Which maybe full circles us back to dog licencing and controls, with mandatory training, background checks and proficiency testing before being allowed to have one.

The status quo isn't on - and it's getting worse with more and more people getting dogs because of lockdown. It's always been an issue in our society-now its a ticking time bomb with too many being bred, dog theft now becoming a serious organised crime and the needless and senseless deaths of people and wildlife down to badly behaved/bad natured/bad trained dogs.
 
The problem is people breeding dogs for profit, the lockdown has put the prices up dramatically and still people will pay.
Walking a dog was a reason to be out, so it became the new must have and pups were churned out with little
thought for temperament, health etc.
I have a real dislike of the latest designer breeds, labradoodles, cockapoos etc. they are simply crossbreeds/mongrels
but giving them a posh name commands a higher price and decidedly iffy parentage, many just don't resemble either breed
Lots of pups are smuggled in from the EU, hopefully that door will now be closed or made harder to get through
The advice is to always see the parents but lots are passed over from the backs of cars in laybys or motorways services
this just should never happen.
But people want a pup and they want it now so the trade continues and may think that pay lots of money is a guarantee of
a fit, healthy trouble free pup, when things go wrong the person say they bred t has disappeared
 
Gremlin said:
The problem is people breeding dogs for profit, the lockdown has put the prices up dramatically and still people will pay.
Walking a dog was a reason to be out, so it became the new must have and pups were churned out with little
thought for temperament, health etc.
I have a real dislike of the latest designer breeds, labradoodles, cockapoos etc. they are simply crossbreeds/mongrels
but giving them a posh name commands a higher price and decidedly iffy parentage, many just don't resemble either breed
Lots of pups are smuggled in from the EU, hopefully that door will now be closed or made harder to get through
The advice is to always see the parents but lots are passed over from the backs of cars in laybys or motorways services
this just should never happen.
But people want a pup and they want it now so the trade continues and may think that pay lots of money is a guarantee of
a fit, healthy trouble free pup, when things go wrong the person say they bred t has disappeared
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of that butThe problem is people breeding dogs for profit I don’t think is the root of the problem. There are these disgusting “puppy farms” and dodgy imports but the “rescue dog” thing contributes and KC pedigree breeders who retain their ”best” dogs and sell the “pet quality” ones are also a problem.

Really the answer to better dogs is for people to breed for profit with defined aims for fitness for purpose. I’ve never bred dogs because I recognise that it would involve culling those that did not come up to scratch and I’ve got too soft to do that. The most amazing (not a word I usually use) dog I’ve ever had was heavily line bred for work (though I had him as a pet) and I know the breeder put down 3 out of his litter of 5 for various physical deficiencies as very young puppies :(.

Breeding for companion animals wouldn’t need to be so harsh and probably there is much to learn from the breeding of endangered species and zoo animals.
 
Gremlin said:
The problem is people breeding dogs for profit, the lockdown has put the prices up dramatically and still people will pay.
Walking a dog was a reason to be out, so it became the new must have and pups were churned out with little
thought for temperament, health etc.
I have a real dislike of the latest designer breeds, labradoodles, cockapoos etc. they are simply crossbreeds/mongrels
but giving them a posh name commands a higher price and decidedly iffy parentage, many just don't resemble either breed
Lots of pups are smuggled in from the EU, hopefully that door will now be closed or made harder to get through
The advice is to always see the parents but lots are passed over from the backs of cars in laybys or motorways services
this just should never happen.
But people want a pup and they want it now so the trade continues and may think that pay lots of money is a guarantee of
a fit, healthy trouble free pup, when things go wrong the person say they bred t has disappeared
Click to expand...
Its become an organised crime. I wish people didn't want the things. How people can gain companionship in an animal rather than in a fellow person is something that's beyond me.

My belief is that if you want company, make friends, get married, get a partner, a dog isn't the answer. But that's the way of a lot of young people, stay single and get a dog.

Too many ill prepared people have them and for the wrong reasons. It's why it has to be regulated, licenced with very very steep punishments to deter unlicensed owner's, breeders etc.
 
SFTPhotography said:
How people can gain companionship in an animal rather than in a fellow person
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Though our emotions may be the same it’s quite different and the two things are not mutually exclusive. It’s odd that you consider yourself such a great expert on dogs :(.
 
sphexx said:
. The most amazing (not a word I usually use) dog I’ve ever had was heavily line bred for work (though I had him as a pet) and I know the breeder put down 3 out of his litter of 5 for various physical deficiencies as very young puppies :(.
Click to expand...

The worst dog I ever had was a line bred dog, I "acquired" him at a year old with massive problems
He had fits that manifested as aggression, vet test showed a brain imbalance, pedigree showed line bred, which in effect is inbred, same dogs frequently used for both his parents, research showed he wasn't the only pup with problems.
Working dog on the whole are a damn sight healthier then show bred, but puppy farmers, back yard breeders etc don't have
a clue of the lineage of the dogs they use, just put any 2 together and let nature take it's course, hence all problem dogs]in the hands of owners that don't have a clue.
As far as licences are concerned, they won't make any difference, who is going to check on them, our police force have
far more important things and as when they were a legal requirement, you will only be found out when something happens
 
Gremlin said:
who is going to check on them
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This is the big question. Parliament makes laws all the time that are meant to control behaviour yet never include in the text how those laws will be enforced nor who will pay for that enforcement.
 
Gremlin said:
The worst dog I ever had was a line bred dog, I "acquired" him at a year old with massive problems
He had fits that manifested as aggression, vet test showed a brain imbalance, pedigree showed line bred, which in effect is inbred, same dogs frequently used for both his parents, research showed he wasn't the only pup with problems.
Working dog on the whole are a damn sight healthier then show bred, but puppy farmers, back yard breeders etc don't have
a clue of the lineage of the dogs they use, just put any 2 together and let nature take it's course, hence all problem dogs]in the hands of owners that don't have a clue.
As far as licences are concerned, they won't make any difference, who is going to check on them, our police force have
far more important things and as when they were a legal requirement, you will only be found out when something happens
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Indeed, to be clear I was not not advocating line breeding in general and it’s a problem with ‘pedigree’ dogs generally.

I used to work with inbred strains of rodents(brother x sister mated for >30 generations) and they are not always obviously different from ‘normal’ strains.

As you imply people generally are always keen to regulate their pet hate (pun!) but don’t want to pay for all the extra police that would be necessary to enforce it.
 
sphexx said:
Though our emotions may be the same it’s quite different and the two things are not mutually exclusive. It’s odd that you consider yourself such a great expert on dogs :(.
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I find it odd you do to. To be honest I suspect you just like them and will say anything, even those that don't like them need re-educated and that those who don't like them are a danger to the welfare of others, in justification of them.

I think I have you down.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Some people don't want to make friends, get married or get a partner, so a dog can be the answer.
A dog can be the best companion in the world for some people.
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Well that speaks volumes, that someone would rather the company of an animal over a person.

And that said that's the very sort of person the public at large needs a degree of protection from.

Other peoples dogs are a menace, especially off the lead in public places and potentially very dangerous to people and wildlife. As we've seen in just one week with two events on the news.

Something, imho, needs to change.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Well that speaks volumes, that someone would rather the company of an animal over a person.

And that said that's the very sort of person the public at large needs a degree of protection from.
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Bullsh!t....
What about the elderly? You need protection from them too?
Lots of elderly people who have lost their loved one turn to dogs for companionship.....
 
SFTPhotography said:
Licencing works well enough for motorists and gun holders. No reason why random spot checks etc and more policing couldn't see it work. Anything but more of the same.
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That might be a good idea, but where do we stop at Licencing. Children going out causing trouble, the list could go on and on.
 
Gremlin said:
The worst dog I ever had was a line bred dog, I "acquired" him at a year old with massive problems which in effect is inbred, same dogs frequently used for both his parents,
Click to expand...
Not quite, line bred is mother son / father daughter.
the idea is to try and control inbreeding depression. While keeping the line ( almost) pure


sphexx said:
I used to work with inbred strains of rodents(brother x sister mated for >30 generations) and they are not always obviously different from ‘normal’ strains.
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Me too, and I agree, generally there are no outwards signs of that fact. Once you get to 21 generations they are genetically identical, and by which time the "anomalies" have been removed. But small rodents aren't prone to aggressive behavior. (fishers rats excepted ;) )
Its after the first few generations that the issues start, and the larger the animal, the larger the potential for undesirable traits
Be that mentally or physically.
 
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