Fountains Abbey - 13th January 2007 (Cancelled)

Joe T said:
"Publish" could well include publishing them on a website, which would include this one. If you are putting them on the web for all and sundry to see, its not personal use anymore.


I think...!
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I think you're right with that one Joe. Publishing them on here and your own site could be an issue.
 
I'd still say it comes under the personal use brackett though, you're not making money out of them and you're just using them and showcasing them, getting feedback and critique on how to improve and what not.

If I post them on my personal site and link them here I'm not publishing them, if money exchanged hands and the pictures were showcased on a site or in a magazine then I'd be publishing them.

I'll seek clarification once I hear back from the National Trust.
 
Darksaber said:
I'd still say it comes under the personal use brackett though, you're not making money out of them and you're just using them and showcasing them, getting feedback and critique on how to improve and what not.

If I post them on my personal site and link them here I'm not publishing them, if money exchanged hands and the pictures were showcased on a site or in a magazine then I'd be publishing them.

I'll seek clarification once I hear back from the National Trust.
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Ever heard the phrase "publish a website"?

Note the correspondance from NT says "publish OR commerical use". By publishing the pics on a website or internet forum, you are making then available to anyone in the world. This reduces the value of their IP - as it makes their own pictures less saleable.

I think you might find you have a problem, Im afraid. Sorry :(
 
Yeah but its not a phrase thats used all that much, and I very much doubt the National Trust class personal websites as publishing - or indeed publishing to the web as what they think is publishing.

Just in case you're right though I'll make sure we know the score in the next 7 days and we can decide what to do from there, if we change the venue or see how much the release fee is.
 
nice post number darksaber.
 
Darksaber said:
Yeah but its not a phrase thats used all that much, and I very much doubt the National Trust class personal websites as publishing - or indeed publishing to the web as what they think is publishing.

Just in case you're right though I'll make sure we know the score in the next 7 days and we can decide what to do from there, if we change the venue or see how much the release fee is.
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Im sure I read somewhere that they want £150 for the release fee!!! :eek:

Good luck with your query anyway. :)
 
Looks like you might have been right Joe, Andrew is still looking into it for me but he says its extemely complicated:

Matt

I have now received information on Charges. It is all very complex but basically there are two charges to be made.

The first is an hourly site charge of upto £100.00 per hour.

There is then a subsequent charge which is made depending on where the image is to be displayed / published - this is where it gets very complex as there are very nearly 600 price bands according to where the image is to be used, the size of the image, the distribution of the image (e.g. in a publication or on the web) and for how long the image will be displayed - eg on the web or in an ad or poster.

Looking through the list I suspect that you could anticipate paying circa £200.00 per image for small scale use.

I would really need to know much more detail to give you an accurate quote.

I am sorry I cannot be more specific - this turns out to be a much more complicated situation than I had even dreamed about!

If you would like me to investigate this further on your behalf to give a more accurate figure I will be happy to do so if you can give me more indication of what the images will be used for.

Regards

Andrew
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I've told him again about the site, my photoblog, what we'd be doing with them in the main instance and we'll see what he comes back with.

At £200 an image theres not much point going is there if we can't share the images we take?

A nice restaurant in the centre of the country might be a better option.
 
My post count is up and down more than Matty's camera.......actually wait, thats not a good analogy :p

:love: Matty
 
Hey,

Just been browsing through the site and spotted this thread. Only registered within the last hour so you guys can tell me to bog off if you like but I would love to make this meet. I live in Leeds so Fountains Abbey would be a great place to get to and meet some new people.

So, am I too late to join in?

Cheers,

Natalya
 
Not too late at all Natalya, I'm not sure if we'll end up going to the abbey - we might have to hunt for an alternative location if they want to charge us £200 per picture to put them on the web.

Will find out early next week when I get a reply to my email I guess :(
 
Darksaber said:
Not too late at all Natalya, I'm not sure if we'll end up going to the abbey - we might have to hunt for an alternative location if they want to charge us £200 per picture to put them on the web.

Will find out early next week when I get a reply to my email I guess :(
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Well anywhere ooop north is good for me :) I'm looking forward to meeting you guys already :)
 
okay

Matt

As promised I've done further research on this on your behalf. Details / conditions are as follows:-

You must book the group in advance.
We are prepared to waive the photographers access fee
We shall not charge you for putting the images on the website
You (that is each photographer) will need to complete & sign the attached usage form - and if, subsequent to this, there are changes in the use of the images you need to inform us and, as a consequence, a fee may be charged. I will forward the completed forms to our office at Heelis.
Copies of all images - with details of the photographe(s)) must be forwarded to the NT photo library at Heelis:

The Photo Library
The National Trust
Heelis
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2NA

We don't normally allow images of our sites to go on any sort of online photo library as this then compromises the business of the NT photo library, so any of the images posted on the website must be un-downloadable or watermarked in such a way that they cannot be used.

The attached forms must be completed, signed and passed to me when you come on to the estate.

http://www.mattcharlton.co.uk/TP/PHOTOGRAPHERcopyrightform.doc

Please also send any website links to me and also to lauren taylor so that we can check that the photos are un-downloadable / watermarked.

I do apologise if this seems over prescriptive but clearly there are strict conditions to be adhered to.

I hope you still intend to proceed with your visit. Please contact me by phone, letter or email to book your party in when your visit details are clear.

Regards

Andrew Moss
Group Visits Organiser
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What does everyone think?

Basically all of the photos we take on that day will belong to the National Trust - we can put them up here and on our own sites but they have to be watermarked/restricted download.

We'd all have to fill in one of these forms but I think we get credit on the photos when/if they go into the national trust library which is quite nice.

Is it still worth it?

Just sent Andrew an email back to clarify the credit thing and ask about entry fees.
 
I will be going but wont be signing the form, I just wont put them on the web site.

As per your reply from Andrew further up in the thread
"Generally there are no restrictions with regard to outdoor photography on this estate provided that the images are for personal use only"

Did you know the Deer park is free to enter.
 
Ok I have to say lets just pick somwhere else! I mean if I want to go and take pics on my own they don't care (i've done it before) but if going in a group causes this kind of problem I just don't see it being worth it. Does anyone else feel like I'm being overly sensitive??
 
I think that if you wanted to go as an individual and take photos and share them on here you'd be subject to the same terms and conditions - for all we know they have people who search the net for images of the national trust places and send people emails to tell them they are breaching copyright or whatever.

As for going along and not filling out out a form and restraining from putting them on the web I dunno where you or we would stand with this.
 
I think we should still go, those who want to sign copyright of their images to NT fill in the form. Those that don't just turn up, not as part of the pre booked group but as individuals.

Darksaber - like i said in previous post I wont put them on the web.

Also have you read this part of the contract

"In the case of previously unpublished work I hereby assign to the National Trust the entire copyright of the video / photographs worldwide for the full period of copyright and all extensions and renewals of it and confirm that the National Trust shall be duly credited as owner of copyright."

To me that says if you have photos from a previous visit you are also giving them copyright to those images aswell.
 
I don't think that loophole will work - what are you going to do with the photos that you take? you can't sell them to anyone regardless of whether you fill the form in or not.

If I'm organising a trip to Foutains Abbey I need a list of who wants to go, I need to give numbers to Andrew at NT and everyone needs to fill out a form, if not then we cancel the trip.
 
I don't give copyright of images away to anybody for nothing.

Count me out I will attend privately, maybe the 13th may not be.
 
If you look on Flickr there are over 1700 images of Fountains Abbey, and I'd respectfully suggest that absolutely nobody there has paid Fountains Abbey or the National Trust a single penny for the "privilege" of so doing.

I'd suggest going to Fountains Abbey (never been and have heard it's excellent for photos), not signing the forms (as we're not going to publish - unless actually intending to publish in a book or to sell), and then doing whatever we want with our photographs afterwards.

If they get arsey about an image on Flickr/Fotothing/TalkPhotography/any other website, the worst they can do is email the webmaster and ask that it be removed.

You can always plead ignorance!

Bloody bureaucracy :bang:
 
Darksaber said:
I don't think that loophole will work
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Its not a loophole, if I go on my own, I don't sign the form, If I just happen to meet others from TP, so be it.


Darksaber said:
what are you going to do with the photos that you take? you can't sell them to anyone regardless of whether you fill the form in or not.
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Sorry but I don't think thats any of your business. (no offense)
 
I'm just trying to understand your justification for not wanting to sign the form, I personally don't care what you do with them but as its me who's supposed to be organising the trip I feel responsible for what happens as a result, etc. You yourself said that you can't sell any images without a release form in an earlier post.

I might just go back to chester zoo instead, its easier ;)
 
If you sign that form, and agree by what it says. You cant even make a print of any of your pic's as you don't own copyright anymore. you will have to apply to the NT for that.

If i attend on my own I can make as many prints as i want as copyright is mine.

Also if i take any pic's which at a later date may need clearance for a sale etc, I can apply to the NT for each individual image and sort prices etc with them and my client.
 
I guess that makes sense, thanks for explaining it to me in a little more detail - I understand where you're coming from with it now.

I think the visiting as a group is going to be too risky, we'll knock this one on the head for now and see about maybe sorting something else out instead. I might still visit with Sue but as I say I might go to the zoo instead, I know where I stand there.

Its obvious that we're not all going to agree about the form - I'm not happy about it although I wouldn't be too bothered as long as any images I took that were placed into the library were credited with my name.

At least we won't get complaints from other forum members about posting weeks worth of ruins or seals pictures anyway :p
 
Just got a reply

Matt

- Non members will have to pay an admission fee. If the party are prebooked as a group they may benefit from Group admission discount rates

Re copy right of images - I'm not sure about the exact ins & outs of this but I do know that any images used by the Trust are always credited to the relevant photographer.

Regards

Andrew
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So you'd be handing over copyright but you'd retain credit.

I'll wait for some more replies before deciding one way or the other.
 
I will be still going on the 13th, but on my own so if anyone else is around I will see you there. Im going to the deer park first so will be their when it opens at first light. (Deer park opens during daylight hours only).
 
I think going by yourself without a lot of camera kit will be fine but if we show up enmasse it is just asking for trouble. Again it is that if I use my camera phone it is fine but as soon as you show you know how to use a camera you are screwed sort of thing. I recommend a visit just not as part of a photography outing!
 
Yeah I think I'm inclined to agree with you Renee, I think future trips should exclude National Trust properties.
 
Well it's private property so they can make the conditions and if you break those conditions you are commiting a trespass and can be ejected.

Is the trip still on?
 
i have been with loads of gear and 4 other photographers to the deerpark on a number of occasions and no one bothers you.
 
:thumbs: Sounds like a plan Matt, count me in.
 
Well thank you matt for trying to organise this and looking into it, sorry it turned out to be such a hassle.
Shame we cant all go, but nevermind, individual trips will still happen. (and still end up with similar pictures as others)
 
York :)

Should be easier for me to get there, so count me as a probable (should this turn into a forum event) :)

Good work Matt :thumbs:
 
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