Focus on focus

People are wrongly accusing me of taking things too seriously. It's at this point a discussion becomes an argument. I will refrain from responding to personal insults with personal insults though and let me assure you I'm not a sensitive wee soul that takes any of this that seriously. I'm sure it will not be long before I get labelled a troll.

But, image sharpness is of the utmost importance. Anyone who says otherwise or congratulates you for taking an out of focus shot is not doing you any favours. The ones I posted as examples are all out of focus. That isn't debatable in my opinion. I can post more but what's the point?

I appreciate that some will deliberately create images that are blurred and out of focus for stylistic reasons. Those images can be good. But when someone posts an out of focus picture of a chameleon, wins some sort of photo of the week accolade, and gets congratulated on sharpness, I can only protest.

I would prefer to be discussing ways of promoting improved sharpness and focus. I would prefer to be explaining how we might test for these things. I'd prefer to discuss this productively. Sadly that looks unlikely.

Btw, I literally use about 8 monitors on a daily basis, one of which is calibrated twice monthly by a Ricoh engineer.
 
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chuckles said:
Ooops... don't think there's a thing sharp here yet I love it (ok, its' one of mine)

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That's a good shot. I like it a lot. Whether you meant it or not, the lack of focus works well and I'm sure that is why put it on Flickr. Nobody has ever congratulated you on its sharpness, I imagine, and you are not of the opinion it is sharp. It's appeal is in the obvious lack of sharp focus.
 
Well, Gordon -

You believe "image sharpness is of the utmost importance."

That is a valid opinion and one with which I most respectfully, and thoroughly disagree in many, if not most cases.
 
Simon, that's your prerogative. In the real world, let me assure you that editorial teams and creative directors are scrutinising images much more carefully than I am. Discipline and high standards are important to those like me who buy images and I would have thought it would be important to those on here who would hope to sell them. I'm actually quite surprised that my focus on focus seems to have annoyed so many when in the industry these technicalities are central to success.
 
Gortch said:
I appreciate that some will deliberately create images that are blurred and out of focus for stylistic reasons. Those images can be good.
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There are plenty of fantastic and renowned images that are out of focus where this hasn't been done for stylistic reasons.
Often focus is a secondary consideration to subject and composition, which may be necessarily fleeting and therefore not present opportunity for perfect focus.
 
Thanks Gordon.

The thing is, I have zero interest in the requirements of editorial teams and creative directors. The discipline and high standards you talk of are to achieve the needs of a particular subset of the set of print media, itself a subset of the medium of photography.

They have nothing to do with my needs or intentions.
 
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simon ess said:
Thanks Gordon.

The thing is, I have zero interest in the requirements of editorial teams and creative directors. The discipline and high standards you talk of are to achieve the needs of a particular subset of the set of print media, itself a subset of the medium of photography.

They have nothing to do with my needs or intentions.
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Exactly what I was thinking.
 
Gortch said:
Simon, that's your prerogative. In the real world, let me assure you that editorial teams and creative directors are scrutinising images much more carefully than I am. Discipline and high standards are important to those like me who buy images and I would have thought it would be important to those on here who would hope to sell them. I'm actually quite surprised that my focus on focus seems to have annoyed so many when in the industry these technicalities are central to success.
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What you need to remember is that the vast majority of the membership of this forum are not and will never be professionally photographers or even looking to make a single penny from photos so as such have a vastly different relationship with photography to what a professional is going to have...

I believe focus is a fundamental part of photography, however there is a difference between OOF and missed focus, also there is creative choice to take into consideration, as an example if taking a photo of a butterfly is it right to focus on the eyes or the wings, personally I tent to believe that it's a choice to make depending on the specific subject..sometimes the colours and patterns on the wings is significantly more important than if the eye is perfectly sharp...

Nobody but yourself has mentioned the T word, but it's best not to try and force your opinion on people by all means say what you believe and back it up with why that's part of the debate that keeps a forum going to be still disagree with you original assertion of the level of the problem
 
Sorry Gordon I thought we all took photos in the real world. It is the use to which they are put that is different. If YOU require ultra sharp images then that is fine but please don't try to inflict your "professional" need on us mere amateurs.
 
MWHCVT said:
by all means say what you believe and back it up with why that's part of the debate that keeps a forum going to be still disagree with you original assertion of the level of the problem
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I did back it up and I gave three examples. Two of those examples were given compliments on the basis of their sharpness and one seems to have won some sort of award. If you read through the comments here, nearly everybody agrees one is way out of focus, many agree another is also out, and the prize winner has prompted a debate about whether we should focus on the eye or not... If I had time I could post a thousand more examples tonight but I don't.

Being OOF isn't a crime and I agree, for many people it isn't a big deal. I think the culture of ignoring the issue is counter-productive though and I assume there are many who don't know they're doing it and would want to know.

When confronted with a shot that is out of focus we have 3 choices: 1) say nothing, 2) pretend it's fine and compliment them, and 3) be honest. Where in some cases out of politeness there might be a case for 1, there is absolutely no case at all in my opinion for 2. Not on a photography forum.
 
This is, in my opinion, a fantastic image (NSFW - probably): http://31.media.tumblr.com/e0566e3374ff1eef61d81074320ddef9/tumblr_mhwily3bw61rudgjlo1_500.jpg

It makes me think about so much. The thoughts it inspires may or may not be intentional. I don't know what, if anything, Moriyami was trying to say with it. But it certainly makes me think about a number of things. Sex and sexuality (and how we expect these themes to be represented), objectification, the distance between casual sexual partners.

Okay, the focus is informing the way I'm thinking about the image so it's an example of unconventional focus serving an artistic end that could fairly be called stylistic. But it's an example of why I disagree with the idea that focus is "of the utmost importance".
 
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Gortch said:
I did back it up and I gave three examples. Two of those examples were given compliments on the basis of their sharpness and one seems to have won some sort of award. If you read through the comments here, nearly everybody agrees one is way out of focus, many agree another is also out, and the prize winner has prompted a debate about whether we should focus on the eye or not... If I had time I could post a thousand more examples tonight but I don't.

Being OOF isn't a crime and I agree, for many people it isn't a big deal. I think the culture of ignoring the issue is counter-productive though and I assume there are many who don't know they're doing it and would want to know.

When confronted with a shot that is out of focus we have 3 choices: 1) say nothing, 2) pretend it's fine and compliment them, and 3) be honest. Where in some cases out of politeness there might be a case for 1, there is absolutely no case at all in my opinion for 2. Not on a photography forum.
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But who has sad you've got to ignore a focus issue, if you want to point it out and (I see nothing wrong with pointing it out) I actively encourage critique the only thing that has been suggested is consider how you point out an issue you've identified so as to deliver your feedback/critique in a constructive way...
 
Gortch said:
Simon, that's your prerogative. In the real world, let me assure you that editorial teams and creative directors are scrutinising images much more carefully than I am. Discipline and high standards are important to those like me who buy images and I would have thought it would be important to those on here who would hope to sell them. I'm actually quite surprised that my focus on focus seems to have annoyed so many when in the industry these technicalities are central to success.
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So you wouldn't have bought Robert Capa's Magnificent 11 or Nick Ut's image of the aftermath of a napalm attack as they have no value?
 
I don't think there's any issue at all with giving your opinion on a photograph in the form of constructive criticism.

If that is the issue here, there are other threads on the subject of giving feedback.
 
I notice you miss option 4) be constructive. That says it all really.

I have no objection to your obsession with sharpness (although I think it misguided - sharpness is grossly over-rated compared to other aspects of photography), it's your superior rudeness that I find objectionable. You're barely here 20 posts and you're telling the 58,000 other members how they're all doing it wrong.
 
Alastair said:
I notice you miss option 4) be constructive. That says it all really.

I have no objection to your obsession with sharpness (although I think it misguided - sharpness is grossly over-rated compared to other aspects of photography), it's your superior rudeness that I find objectionable. You're barely here 20 posts and you're telling the 58,000 other members how they're all doing it wrong.
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just what i was thinking word for word. being new to a forum its probably not the best way to conduct yourself constructive is how it should be done not starting a whole thread aimed solely to moan and bitch about other peoples work. just because you work in some graphics job where everything has to be 100% sharp and 100% in focus doesn't mean everything on here has to be, do we compare your driving to Jenson button, no, so don't compare our pictures like there all going on billboards round the world

rant over :oops: :$
 
Ok
Alastair said:
I notice you miss option 4) be constructive. That says it all really.

I have no objection to your obsession with sharpness (although I think it misguided - sharpness is grossly over-rated compared to other aspects of photography), it's your superior rudeness that I find objectionable. You're barely here 20 posts and you're telling the 58,000 other members how they're all doing it wrong.
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Ok so we can dismiss anything substantive you say or might say because your personal feelings about my character are likely to result in nothing but cynicism. Fine and thanks for the candour. Dismissed.
 
Gortch said:
Ok


Ok so we can dismiss anything substantive you say or might say because your personal feelings about my character are likely to result in nothing but cynicism. Fine and thanks for the candour. Dismissed.
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Told you it wouldn't be long before the word rude was used:D:D
 
nicholi said:
just what i was thinking word for word. being new to a forum its probably not the best way to conduct yourself constructive is how it should be done not starting a whole thread aimed solely to moan and bitch about other peoples work. just because you work in some graphics job where everything has to be 100% sharp and 100% in focus doesn't mean everything on here has to be, do we compare your driving to Jenson button, no, so don't compare our pictures like there all going on billboards round the world

rant over :oops: :$
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I started this thread with an honest question. Did you try reading it?

As we can all see, the discussion is being hijacked by people like you who think the duration of my involvement here gives them some basis for avoiding the subject matter and launching personal attacks. There isn't a forum on the web that doesn't have several bar-flies on it claiming superiority over new members like that.

I'm sure it will not take you long to find a few like-minded friends with which you can embark on a rather typical virtual lynching with.
 
Gortch said:
I started this thread with an honest question. Did you try reading it?

As we can all see, the discussion is being hijacked by people like you who think the duration of my involvement here gives them some basis for avoiding the subject matter and launching personal attacks. There isn't a forum on the web that doesn't have several bar-flies on it claiming superiority over new members like that.

I'm sure it will not take you long to find a few like-minded friends with which you can embark on a rather typical virtual lynching with.
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a honest question but some of the other posts are very blunt and seem like your on a high horse. just remember that reading all these posts you i am afraid are in the minority my friend:whistle:
 
BRASH said:
Told you it wouldn't be long before the word rude was used:D:D
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Lol brash, you were right. I suppose the guy that told the king he had no clothes on was called rude too.

I've ended up in the bursting bubbles business. Just the place for a prick you might think but I had hoped to discuss methods of improving picture quality and to possibly have learned something.
 
nicholi said:
a honest question but some of the other posts are very blunt and seem like your on a high horse. just remember that reading all these posts you i am afraid are in the minority my friend:whistle:
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All the best people are in the minority. It was a guy in the minority that took us out of the trees.
 
Whoa there tiger.. ..

Gortch said:
I'll be honest though, it's my opinion that 50 to 60 % of the pictures I look at on here are out. Most are very slightly out but if they were mine I'd delete them.
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Are these not your size tens treading all over the forum and telling us most of the photographs we post are only fit for deleting? Is this not a personal attack on the whole of the forum?

Why should your opinion be given respect if you're so incapable of treating others with respect? Bluntness has it's place, but it rarely makes friends or influences people when its the only tool you have in your repertoire.

WTMIL
 
ding76uk said:
Can we see your portfolio Gortch?

You seem to be pointing out others failures, I for one would like to see your work.
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To be honest I prefer not to go down that route, while its only natural to look at others work an think that you should practice what you preach, I don't think critique should be nessasarily valued based on the work of the person giving the critique IMO
 
MWHCVT said:
To be honest I prefer not to go down that route, while its only natural to look at others work an think that you should practice what you preach, I don't think critique should be nessasarily valued based on the work of the person giving the critique IMO
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Agree but you know how it is Matt. If you work it up people the small minds look for revenge. No doubt he'll get unjustified pelters when he posts stuff up. Nature of the beast but I'm sure he'll have that sussed and not give too much of a toss. I know I don't
 
Gortch said:
All the best people are in the minority. It was a guy in the minority that took us out of the trees.
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and things will have to be done wrong for progress just ask the scientists. its very easy to criticize so post you portfolio up and the whole forum can have a look and give you a little bit of C&C. remember its all for fun:)
 
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MWHCVT said:
To be honest I prefer not to go down that route, while its only natural to look at others work an think that you should practice what you preach, I don't think critique should be nessasarily valued based on the work of the person giving the critique IMO
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I think its a fair point if your going to be giving critique,it would nice to see the work of the critic :)
 
I can't help think that if someone posted up the opposite.......a thread saying that focus/sharpness wasn't important they would get jumped on!

So what's the deal here let's be truthful, is it important or is the issue a newbie?
 
Right all you lovely little chuffer trains.
I'm damned sure I saw a track laying around here somewhere.
If anyone spots it, please do feel free to get back on in. :thumbs:
 
Gortch said:
All the best people are in the minority. It was a guy in the minority that took us out of the trees.
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Gortch.I go on plenty of other forums not just photography and I can tell you this is the worst forum for threads turning into personal attacks.There are certain people that just cannot get out of the state they are in.Just try suggesting that full frame sensors are not the holy grail(here they come:runaway: ).

About the focusing- the lizard thing IS in focus the spider IS in focus. YOU don't think they are because the photos are not focused on the plane where YOU think they should be.They cannot be called out of focus.

Can you show some of your in focus macro shots to compare please.That will give me an idea where I should be focusing.Thanks.:naughty:
 
MWHCVT said:
To be honest I prefer not to go down that route, while its only natural to look at others work an think that you should practice what you preach, I don't think critique should be nessasarily valued based on the work of the person giving the critique IMO
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But, if all you do is say how everything you deal with is perfect and you would bin shots that others posted, saying they are out of focus etc. then you should be able to back yourself up.

Nothing personal in it, well from me anyways, but if you can't walk the walk......
 
In regards to the original thread I think sharpness is over rated in some cases. Give me a slightly out of focus but interesting shot over critical sharpness any day of the week. Digital has meant people get caught up on technical over artistic and IMHO photography suffers due to it
 
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Photography is an art and a science, which is why there will be those who defend differing viewpoints. The artists are about expression and emotion whereas the scientists are more concerned with the technical aspects.

Unfortunately this is why photographers will never agree on subjects like this. Or maybe we are all just argumentative sods?
 
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ding76uk said:
Digital has meant people get caught up on technical over artistic and IMHO photography suffers due to it
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Assuming you were not involved in the holocaust, I doubt if you have ever been so wrong. It is widely understood and accepted that mass participation in photography as a result of what some call the digital revolution, has generally resulted in a dramatic decline in standards. Where before a relatively small number of people took bad photographs, huge numbers of people now take bad photographs.

Digital in this sense is to photography what macdonalds is to cuisine. That said, it is what it is and so you have to adapt and take from it what good you can find, ignoring or opposing the rest; I think macdonald make a latte as well as anyone else.

I think we all agree though that it would be better if macdonalds offered better quality food and did its level best to prevent food poisoning by abiding by recognised hygiene standards.
 
Personally, I think the desire for super sharp photos is way over the top, I hate seeing those sharpness checking shots of lenses with weetabix boxes and the like,those over sharpened shots of rabbits,cats,dogs.

I think far too many get screwed up with sharpness and forget about the content and its ability to make you think.

N`owt against anyone, just my thoughts.
 
kestral said:
Gortch.I go on plenty of other forums not just photography and I can tell you this is the worst forum for threads turning into personal attacks.There are certain people that just cannot get out of the state they are in.Just try suggesting that full frame sensors are not the holy grail(here they come:runaway: ).

About the focusing- the lizard thing IS in focus the spider IS in focus. YOU don't think they are because the photos are not focused on the plane where YOU think they should be.They cannot be called out of focus.

Can you show some of your in focus macro shots to compare please.That will give me an idea where I should be focusing.Thanks.:naughty:
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You might be right about the small minds and let me suggest you leave those to me. You're wrong about those pictures though.

Take the spider one. The web near the spider's head and presumably some of the head itself is arguably in focus. But if the focus was on the head as it seems to be, why isn't the head in the shot? You can't see it. So he focused on something we can't see -- brilliant. The part we can see, it's back etc, is out of focus and takes up most of the frame. Just ridiculous.

As for the lizard, if the eye was not supposed to be in focus, as you are suggesting, and in doing so you join an elite group who are willing to admit it isn't in focus, then why has he tried to make it look sharp in post? I can tell when someone has tried to fake focus. Even if you were right though in your assumption that the eye was not meant to be in focus, well that would be even more of an error. Forgive me but I am of the view that in that shot the eye should be in focus, was intended to be in focus, but wasn't in focus.
 
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