Flash set up question

Raptor Mike

Raptor Mike

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I photographed my daughters in their playschool nativity the other day. I didn't use flash during the performance, I just used auto ISO. There was an opertunity after the show for parents to take their kids aside to take photos of them dressed up, a good idea I thought. So I grabbed the 430ex2 and put it on the camera. The thing is then I ended up trying to get the flash exposure right wasting shots.

My question is how do you work out what flash settings to have on or off camera without having to do a load of test shots first? Can it be done?

Thanks, Mike
 
Not sure I understand. Why couldn't you just let the camera and the flashgun sort it out between them?
 
Serendipitous Sid said:
Not sure I understand. Why couldn't you just let the camera and the flashgun sort it out between them?
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Sorry, I'm not very good at explaining things, but basicly when I set the camera to auto (which I never use, auto's for compacts ;)) the flash works fine with a good shutter speed. But when I put it on apaturue priority i get slow shutter speeds, even with the lens wide open. What I don't get is why its slowing the shutter rather than upping the flash?

I had a play around yesterday and I've got it suused on manual, I think. Also I noticed there's a setting to change the amount of pre flash, which was set to 2/3 so I set that to full power.

Basically I just want the flash to expose bright enough.

I watched a mat Granger vid on wedding settings and he talked about a setting on his Nikon which let's you control the minimum shuuter speed, he shots in ap priortiy, but I couldn't find this on my 60D.

Thanks
 
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Hiya. I'm no expert, by any means but when I use the flash on the camera I use it in ettl mode and use manual mode on camera then all you have to do is use flash exposure compensation if you need more or less flash power.
As you say in av mode the camera just exposes as if the flash wasn't there (I think) e.g. you can end up with real slow speeds. I think I would have chosen the slowest shutter speed your comfortable with and an aperture to give enough dof then take your ISO up until you get the background/ambient where you want it.
Turn flash on and take a photo, tweak as needed.
Like I say I'm no expert but this way makes sense to me and as worked ok up until now :--)

Gaz
 
I'm guessing Canon?
Canon will always treat flash as 'fill' if you use AV. So it'll drop the shutter speed to get the ambient exposure. I believe there are things you can do on modern Canon's to address this, but I'm stuck in the mud, so here's my rule of thumb.

If flash is my secondary light source (fill) I'll use AV, TV, P or whatever, however once flash is my primary light source, I'm a Manual shooter. So I Manually set the camera to do whatever I want with the ambient, then the flash in ETTL will give me the flash exposure (probably). That's the same whether I'm using studio heads and want to completely overpower the ambient, using flash to balance a sunset, or any other use of flash as the keylight.
Hope that helps.
(cross posted with above)
 
Thanks folks.
cargo said:
Hiya. I'm no expert, by any means but when I use the flash on the camera I use it in ettl mode and use manual mode on camera then all you have to do is use flash exposure compensation if you need more or less flash power.
As you say in av mode the camera just exposes as if the flash wasn't there (I think) e.g. you can end up with real slow speeds. I think I would have chosen the slowest shutter speed your comfortable with and an aperture to give enough dof then take your ISO up until you get the background/ambient where you want it.
Turn flash on and take a photo, tweak as needed.
Like I say I'm no expert but this way makes sense to me and as worked ok up until now :--)

Gaz
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Why I asked is because you don't always have to time to play with the exposure comepsation. And its not always possible to set it up by taking a load of pre shots so you can't adjust it.


Phil V said:
I'm guessing Canon?
Canon will always treat flash as 'fill' if you use AV. So it'll drop the shutter speed to get the ambient exposure. I believe there are things you can do on modern Canon's to address this, but I'm stuck in the mud, so here's my rule of thumb.

If flash is my secondary light source (fill) I'll use AV, TV, P or whatever, however once flash is my primary light source, I'm a Manual shooter. So I Manually set the camera to do whatever I want with the ambient, then the flash in ETTL will give me the flash exposure (probably). That's the same whether I'm using studio heads and want to completely overpower the ambient, using flash to balance a sunset, or any other use of flash as the keylight.
Hope that helps.
(cross posted with above)
Click to expand...

That does help a lot Phil thanks. From my playing around yesterday that makes perfect sense. And yes it is a canon :)
 
Oh. and start with the flash 1/3 under and use the FEC on camera, it doesn't take much doing to be able to do it without looking at the buttons

And use CWA flash metering (it's in the Custom settings in the camera menu) I know that the newer Canon's are supposed to be better but I never trusted the Evaluative flash metering, it's not quite as reliable IMHO
 
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Thanks, I did wonder which one was better. I only found out you could do that with the flash yesterday lol. Thanks again :thumbs:
 
Done that got the T-shirt. Canon I think also Nikon work the same. When the flash in ETTL and the camera is in Full Auto or P programme mode the camera assumes the flash is the "primary" light source and sets the flash output to illuminate the foreground, and ignores the background illumination; and sets the shutter speed within the 1/60 to 1/200 range. To get the best exposure result blip the * (exposure lock) button to pre fire the flash and set the flash output level.
When the camera is in the creative modes, AV, TV etc the camera assumes the flash is not the "primary" light source, but the "secondary". So if you are in AV, when the camera is evaluating the light it is taking into consideration the background or ambient lighting, and will set the shutter speed accordingly to burn in the background, the flash is fired to fill in the foreground. As the background light level is often low the shutter speed is 1/15 or slower so you get blurred images if you taking pictures of moving kids etc. You can shoot in manual with the flash on ETTL and blipping the exposure lock will set the flash output but it will take a little practice.
 
Mike54 said:
Done that got the T-shirt. Canon I think also Nikon work the same. When the flash in ETTL and the camera is in Full Auto or P programme mode the camera assumes the flash is the "primary" light source and sets the flash output to illuminate the foreground, and ignores the background illumination; and sets the shutter speed within the 1/60 to 1/200 range. To get the best exposure result blip the * (exposure lock) button to pre fire the flash and set the flash output level.
When the camera is in the creative modes, AV, TV etc the camera assumes the flash is not the "primary" light source, but the "secondary". So if you are in AV, when the camera is evaluating the light it is taking into consideration the background or ambient lighting, and will set the shutter speed accordingly to burn in the background, the flash is fired to fill in the foreground. As the background light level is often low the shutter speed is 1/15 or slower so you get blurred images if you taking pictures of moving kids etc. You can shoot in manual with the flash on ETTL and blipping the exposure lock will set the flash output but it will take a little practice.
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Thank you for all that advice (y) ... I just have to remember it all now.

I have found learning flash is like trying to get my head around apature/ISO/shutter all over again, but harder lol
 
I cursed it ages until the penny dropped, a single line in a blog somewhere and it all became clear. A lot of togs don't like flash for exactly the same reasons that we found; I think we all expected to work like dumb flashes or even bulbs, if you go back that far.
 
In one of the menus there is an external speed light control > Flash sync in Av mode > 1/200 - 1/60 sec. auto.

I don't if that is on the 60D but I would think so as it's a fairly modern camera.
 
cowboy said:
In one of the menus there is an external speed light control > Flash sync in Av mode > 1/200 - 1/60 sec. auto.

I don't if that is on the 60D but I would think so as it's a fairly modern camera.
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I did look for it after watching the matt granger vid but I couldn't find it. I will take another look though.
 
Phil V said:
You'll struggle to find the same menu, he's shooting Nikon.
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Yes, but I watched it as a guid to on camera shooting before starting this thread. I know the menus are different but it gave me some idea of what to do and it was the only helpful vid I could find. As it happens the replays I've got on here have been a lot more helpful :)
 
Phil V said:
Page 130 of your manual.
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That then took me to page 253 which has the settings. Its in a custom function not the flash setting, which is strange. For anyone else reading this for ref the av a shutter setting is in C.Fn 1:Exposure - C.Fn 1 -7.
Thanks Phil, you're a star :thumbs: I did look in the manual but couldn't find it. Thanks again :D
 
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