First RAW file I have decided to keep.

I've done a comparison in the past, and to my mind there is absolutely no difference.
If the detail is there, its there. If its not then no amount of slapping it around will make the slightest bit of difference ..
(And I did use the word controversial before :D )

I know.... I just couldn't resist biting!

It's a proven fact.... the very coding algorithm to produce a jpg is destructive in terms of pixel density/value/adjacency - it would take a number of iterations but changes are changes and they never work to improve the quality of an image!
 
I'm not one of those that preaches "Get it right in camera" and you won't need to process anything, as far as I'm concerned PS is the next best tool I have to my camera.
But never achieve the results you could have done from the RAW... and working/saving a jpg will provide a degrading path from the original.

Again, and the usual correct answer when discussing raw/jpeg is it depends on your workflow and output requirements. For sports photographers, shoot jpeg, get it out as quick as possible so right in camera helps a lot. For others, having the raw file is like having the negative, allowing significant processing if required.
If you only output small images to websites/social media etc, then shooting jpeg with a post processing tweak won't affect the final image noticeably and allows the camera style/some processing to be set in camera.

Because Jpeg is compressed, it discards some of the information. That can be important, but as said it depends on your workflow and requirements.
 
I know.... I just couldn't resist biting!
:D

It's a proven fact.... the very coding algorithm to produce a jpg is destructive in terms of pixel density/value/adjacency -
I've no argument with that statement. but it makes me wonder at what actual level of photographer / photography, and the actual use of the end product, that it actually makes a blind bit of difference..
 
And the converse will apply to the dog :)
I'm not one of those that preaches "Get it right in camera" and you won't need to process anything, as far as I'm concerned PS is the next best tool I have to my camera.
However a tweak of +/- exposure is really helpful in the situations you outline.
I do tend to +/- as my photos do tend to over expose, plus gives me an added faster shutter speed.
I have changed the metering mode on the camera, as I was using multi, but average seems to give a better result. Or at least it does for me.
 
but average seems to give a better result. Or at least it does for me.
And TBH that's what it all comes down to, in the end, its what ever works for you :thumbs:
 
Is it really possible to get it right in camera, every time? Most of my photographing time, is when I am walking the dog. Or out shopping with the missus, and carrying bags. I would not have the time, to get things set up. Read a light meter and all the other faffing about. My dog is not going to wait for me, while I perfect the right settings. She will have weed done a dump, and be off across the field. Same with the missus, she is not going to wait, while I evaluate things. If I was on my own, then I will try and work out what would be the best settings. Trouble is, nowadays there is not always the option. As you have take the photo, then move away.

If I am in the house taking photos, then I will deffo try for getting it right in camera. Missus pinned to the chair, in the exact pose I am after. Works a treat, every time. :D
 
Is it really possible to get it right in camera, every time?
I'd say probably not, other people will say "Of course it is" and continue to "machine gun" the subject in the hope that 1/20 is acceptable
( and more controversy from me ;) )

My dog is not going to wait for me, while I perfect the right settings. She will have weed done a dump, and be off across the field. Same with the missus,
:eek:
:D
 
The dog and I had great fun, I was rolling around on the snow, just to get the shot. They are now in my folder, named "Fun photos". :)

Now you're just being a tease.
 
Now you're just being a tease.
Composition wise, they are terrible. But the look on my dog's face, of me rolling on the floor in the snow, is brilliant. A few lovely memories for me to look at, when she is long gone. :)
 
Unfortunately Battersea dogs home is full of unwanted dogs, many of whom end up their because their owners didn't think through owning a dog or they bought the wrong dog, I'm glad you wont be adding to the numbers 'cos it sounds as though you'll never buy/steal/own a dog.
Shame more people weren't like you, dogs would benefit in the long term.
Owning a dog is a privelige not a right!
This thread is about keeping RAW files, not about keeping dogs. I have been on this forum a good few years, and I know it does have some weird members. I am probably just as weird as the rest of you, that is probably why I stick around. :)
I'm not really that bad. I once looked after a foxhound for a week (lovely dog) and we both survived. It's just that they seem to need a lot more attention than cats (or raw files). But isn't it easier to keep all the raw files than to select some? Storage is cheap - a 4TB pocket USB drive is about £100, which probably holds over 100,000 average raw files.
 
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I'm not really that bad. I once looked after a foxhound for a week (lovely dog) and we both survived. It's just that they seem to need a lot more attention than cats (or raw files). But isn't it easier to keep all the raw files than to select some? Storage is cheap - a 4TB pocket USB drive is about £100, which probably holds over 100,000 average raw files.
I don't really want to keep masses of RAW files, I hate working on the files. It takes me ages to get the image looking the way I want it. I don't want the daunting task, of trawling through masses of old files, and re tweaking them. I will however, be excited and enthusiastic, to re tweak memorable files. :)
 
You could think of it as cheap insurance. You wouldn't ever touch the vast majority of raw files again, but if you ever did need to go back the file would be there waiting for you - easy to find by a simple search if you kept the same name for the jpeg, even without a cataloguing system. But everyone is different - I'd probably spend more time agonising about which ones to keep than I would just dumping the lot to disk. :)
 
You could think of it as cheap insurance. You wouldn't ever touch the vast majority of raw files again, but if you ever did need to go back the file would be there waiting for you - easy to find by a simple search if you kept the same name for the jpeg, even without a cataloguing system. But everyone is different - I'd probably spend more time agonising about which ones to keep than I would just dumping the lot to disk. :)
I have about ten years worth of Jpegs. I would not like ten years worth of RAW files. :eek:
 
I have about ten years worth of Jpegs. I would not like ten years worth of RAW files. :eek:

I've got 12 years of RAW. If you you are disciplined with culling the non-keepers then it isn't a problem. Storage is cheap.

I wouldn't have dreamed of throwing away my negatives when I was shooting film years ago.
 
I've got 12 years of RAW. If you you are disciplined with culling the non-keepers then it isn't a problem. Storage is cheap.

I wouldn't have dreamed of throwing away my negatives when I was shooting film years ago.
I not only have all my negatives, I also inherited my fathers - going through all of those (and scanning the interesting ones) is REALLY time consuming
 
I've got 12 years of RAW. If you you are disciplined with culling the non-keepers then it isn't a problem. Storage is cheap.

I wouldn't have dreamed of throwing away my negatives when I was shooting film years ago.
Yes I know storage is cheap, and I do have plenty of storage devices. I just hate the time consuming effort of working on files. I will put the effort in, for files that are of importance, and interest to me. So yes, I am going to start saving my RAW files, that are of interest. :)
 
When staring out I used to shoot Jpeg, then I went raw, on the advice of a few on the forum.
I now shoot Jpeg. again. because
1) My version of PS doesn't support raw from my current camera

If you did want to return to using RAW, you can download Adobe's free DNG converter and convert your camera specific RAW files to DNG format.
This is a standard format RAW file.

You can then use your version of PS to process the DNG file.

Adobe keeps updating the DNG converter to handle the latest camera specific RAW files, so ensuring the ongoing ability to continue processing the DNG files even if your older version of PS isn't directly compatible with the latest RAW files.

My standard process is to shoot in RAW and then convert all the RAW files to DNG, then keep the DNG files, and process those I want to a final jpeg.

Like a few here, I have gone back on a few occasions to reprocess older DNG files as I've learnt new processing techniques in PS.
 
I keep all my RAW files but mainly because my digital file keeping is non-existent and I’m a lazy mare [emoji23]
 
I keep all my RAW files but mainly because my digital file keeping is non-existent and I’m a lazy mare [emoji23]
I am not only lazy, but getting on a bit. So I am getting a little forgetful too. I was supposed to be organising some RAW files, but I can't recall where I put them. :(
 
If you did want to return to using RAW, you can download Adobe's free DNG converter and convert your camera specific RAW files to DNG format.
This is a standard format RAW file.

You can then use your version of PS to process the DNG file.

Adobe keeps updating the DNG converter to handle the latest camera specific RAW files, so ensuring the ongoing ability to continue processing the DNG files even if your older version of PS isn't directly compatible with the latest RAW files.

My standard process is to shoot in RAW and then convert all the RAW files to DNG, then keep the DNG files, and process those I want to a final jpeg.

Like a few here, I have gone back on a few occasions to reprocess older DNG files as I've learnt new processing techniques in PS.
Personally, I think blindly converting everything to DNG is unnecessary and unproductive.
There is an interesting argument against using DNG here https://photographylife.com/dng-vs-raw
In the linked essay he asserts "most post-processing software packages out there either do not read DNG at all, or read it poorly, making DNG a lot less useful than it was designed to be in the first place."
Other programs than Photoshop are available and certainly in the amateur world, Adobe no longer has the stranglehold it once had.
As I understand it, Adobe wanted to establish DNG as a "standard" to avoid their software engineers having to re-write their raw conversion software every time a new camera model was introduced - let me suggst that's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! Camera makers are never going to give up their proprietary raw formats, and will no doubt provide arguments as to why their raw format is better.

Personally, I prefer to keep the unmodified raw file direct from the camera than rely on a manipulated version, which may not necesarily contain the same amount of image data, and offers no improvement in post processing.
 
Personally, I think blindly converting everything to DNG is unnecessary and unproductive.
There is an interesting argument against using DNG here https://photographylife.com/dng-vs-raw
In the linked essay he asserts "most post-processing software packages out there either do not read DNG at all, or read it poorly, making DNG a lot less useful than it was designed to be in the first place."
Other programs than Photoshop are available and certainly in the amateur world, Adobe no longer has the stranglehold it once had.
As I understand it, Adobe wanted to establish DNG as a "standard" to avoid their software engineers having to re-write their raw conversion software every time a new camera model was introduced - let me suggst that's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! Camera makers are never going to give up their proprietary raw formats, and will no doubt provide arguments as to why their raw format is better.

Personally, I prefer to keep the unmodified raw file direct from the camera than rely on a manipulated version, which may not necesarily contain the same amount of image data, and offers no improvement in post processing.

I think DNG is a smaller file than a RAW. Are there advantages to DNG? I have never looked at a DNG file, or at least not that I can remember.
 
If you did want to return to using RAW, you can download Adobe's free DNG converter and convert your camera specific RAW files to DNG format.
This is a standard format RAW file.

You can then use your version of PS to process the DNG file.

Adobe keeps updating the DNG converter to handle the latest camera specific RAW files, so ensuring the ongoing ability to continue processing the DNG files even if your older version of PS isn't directly compatible with the latest RAW files.

My standard process is to shoot in RAW and then convert all the RAW files to DNG, then keep the DNG files, and process those I want to a final jpeg.

Like a few here, I have gone back on a few occasions to reprocess older DNG files as I've learnt new processing techniques in PS.


Personally, I think blindly converting everything to DNG is unnecessary and unproductive.
There is an interesting argument against using DNG here https://photographylife.com/dng-vs-raw
In the linked essay he asserts "most post-processing software packages out there either do not read DNG at all, or read it poorly, making DNG a lot less useful than it was designed to be in the first place."
Other programs than Photoshop are available and certainly in the amateur world, Adobe no longer has the stranglehold it once had.
As I understand it, Adobe wanted to establish DNG as a "standard" to avoid their software engineers having to re-write their raw conversion software every time a new camera model was introduced - let me suggst that's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! Camera makers are never going to give up their proprietary raw formats, and will no doubt provide arguments as to why their raw format is better.

Personally, I prefer to keep the unmodified raw file direct from the camera than rely on a manipulated version, which may not necesarily contain the same amount of image data, and offers no improvement in post processing.


Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply and particularly the linked article, which has further links in it - very interesting.
I have to admit that I implemented my existing workflow a number of years ago and haven't really reviewed it at any point, so this is useful to me.

Firstly, in my response to Cobra's comment:
When staring out I used to shoot Jpeg, then I went raw, on the advice of a few on the forum.
I now shoot Jpeg. again. because
1) My version of PS doesn't support raw from my current camera


The use of DNG would potentially be a solution enabling them to shoot RAW files rather than shooting Jpeg.


However, separate from that in relation to my own workflow, there are a number of good points made in the article you linked to, not least being the fact that the major players are never going to adopt DNG as their own RAW format as it would mean they would lose competitive advantage, and prevent them from potentially introducing new features without having to petition for an update to the standard.

There are some things I do like about DNG, not least the fact that adjustments in ACR are saved in the file rather than generating XMP sidecar files. I also don't have a problem running the DNG conversion on a folder of newly imported images as this takes a fairly short time due to having a reasonably powerful computer, and as it just runs through them all, I can go and get a coffee or do something else while it's processing.

However, the idea that some metadata is probably lost in conversion to DNG is potentially of some concern, as is the fact that a fair amount of alternative image editing software simply does not support DNG, or does so badly. Whilst I currently use Adobe Photoshop (CS6 as I do not like the idea of a subscription model), I can see that in the future, I may well get to a point of considering an alternative, at which point I could have an issue with DNG files.

In the light of all the above, I am now seriously considering keeping the original (Canon) RAW files given plentiful storage is not really an issue, so as I said, thanks for your post Brian - it is genuinely appreciated.
 
After saying I am now keeping some of my RAW files, or at least the ones important to me. I have now amassed the massive number of five, not five gig of RAW files, but simply five files. :)
 
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply and particularly the linked article, which has further links in it - very interesting.
I have to admit that I implemented my existing workflow a number of years ago and haven't really reviewed it at any point, so this is useful to me.

Firstly, in my response to Cobra's comment:
When staring out I used to shoot Jpeg, then I went raw, on the advice of a few on the forum.
I now shoot Jpeg. again. because
1) My version of PS doesn't support raw from my current camera


The use of DNG would potentially be a solution enabling them to shoot RAW files rather than shooting Jpeg.

As far as I'm aware, no camera capable of shooting raw is supplied without software, enabling the raw files to be processed.
If you are limited to editing software that does not support raw files, you can always do a basic conversion (using the manufacturer supplied software) to a 16-bit TIFF and work on that.
This is pretty much what I do with my image files, except that I do the conversion in Lightroom and then pass the developed TIFF to the editor of my choice.


There are some things I do like about DNG, not least the fact that adjustments in ACR are saved in the file rather than generating XMP sidecar files.

This too, is one of the few reasons I like the idea of DNG.
However, I did play with some software (and I can't remember what it was) that optionally (at your own risk) allowed the XMP Metadata to be stored within a Canon .CR2 raw file, so it is possible
If only the camera manufacturers would accomodate this feature when they devise their raw file structure, it would be of benefit to everyone.
The current cumbersome XMP "sidecar" file system is yet another thing we can "thank" Adobe for.


However, the idea that some metadata is probably lost in conversion to DNG is potentially of some concern, as is the fact that a fair amount of alternative image editing software simply does not support DNG, or does so badly. Whilst I currently use Adobe Photoshop (CS6 as I do not like the idea of a subscription model), I can see that in the future, I may well get to a point of considering an alternative, at which point I could have an issue with DNG files.

In the light of all the above, I am now seriously considering keeping the original (Canon) RAW files given plentiful storage is not really an issue, so as I said, thanks for your post Brian - it is genuinely appreciated.
I have no idea if the DNG conversion loses any data, but when the DNG file is smaller than the original raw file, one cannot help but be suspicious.
 
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I have seen some of my older photos that I converted. I now see I could have made a better job of it, but I don't have the original RAW. So that is why I am going to start saving some RAW files, or at least the ones I think are special to me..
This is one of the reasons I keep all my RAW files.
I do go back to RAW files and re-assess the processing and then change as I see fit.
Keeping the RAW file allows me to do edits without losing quality. If for example I spot something in the jpeg file that I want to remove, say a plane in the sky that spoils the image, if I edit the jpg, I'll be looking at jpeg compression artefacts in the sky rather than the pixels as captured by the camera and then I'll get more compression when I save it out again.
I recently went back to one of my favourite shots from about 5 years ago. I thought the original image I'd processed was good, but I went back to look at all the RAW files and found that there was a slightly wider shot that I hadn't processed at the time that I preferred, so I processed that and now having shared that on social media, I've made a small sale on it.
Worth the effort of keeping files, yes definitely for me.

The other benefit is you can go back an export an uncompressed file if you want it for a large print rather than use a jpg.

As for organising the files: Every time I shoot anything, I dump the RAW files onto my hard drive in a folder dependant on the year, month and location/shoot. Then once the files are processed the finishes jpgs are in a folder within that.
EG: 2018 > March > Lake District
Been organising my files that way for 12+ years, keeping all my RAW files since I started shooting in RAW. Yes it's a lot of data, but I think it's worth it.
 
This is one of the reasons I keep all my RAW files.
I do go back to RAW files and re-assess the processing and then change as I see fit.
Keeping the RAW file allows me to do edits without losing quality. If for example I spot something in the jpeg file that I want to remove, say a plane in the sky that spoils the image, if I edit the jpg, I'll be looking at jpeg compression artefacts in the sky rather than the pixels as captured by the camera and then I'll get more compression when I save it out again.
I recently went back to one of my favourite shots from about 5 years ago. I thought the original image I'd processed was good, but I went back to look at all the RAW files and found that there was a slightly wider shot that I hadn't processed at the time that I preferred, so I processed that and now having shared that on social media, I've made a small sale on it.
Worth the effort of keeping files, yes definitely for me.

The other benefit is you can go back an export an uncompressed file if you want it for a large print rather than use a jpg.

As for organising the files: Every time I shoot anything, I dump the RAW files onto my hard drive in a folder dependant on the year, month and location/shoot. Then once the files are processed the finishes jpgs are in a folder within that.
EG: 2018 > March > Lake District
Been organising my files that way for 12+ years, keeping all my RAW files since I started shooting in RAW. Yes it's a lot of data, but I think it's worth it.

I too am keeping my files by month and year. I am just using the basic editing software, that came with the cameras. When I get around to it, I will get a better editing software. So I will probably re work some of the files.
 
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