first rant of 2011..Petrol prices!

[whitewash]

The only way I can see any form of protest happening (and this is where the British public don't come together) would be not to have a fuel blckade per se, but to target one of the big players..... lets say BP for arguments sake.

If from tomorrow morning, no one bought any BP fuel for x period of time, BP would start to drop their prices in order to regain some market share (and appease the shareholders)

.

That never works though as the big oil companies supply the smaller chains and supermarkets, moving your custom to anyone else will just mean you;ll be trickling money into them via different sources, the only people that would really suffer would be the filling station owners who are already on tight margins for fuel which is why they sell anything else they can, the probably make as much profit on one chocolate bar as they do on 50litres of fuel!

 

[Matt]

it seems that a lot of companies are missing the bigger picture. when the recession bit, a few of our suppliers put their prices up, so what did we do? we shopped around and found better prices, this allowed us to not have to put prices up, which increased our work as other people did the same thing. What the country needs, is for the companies that supply us all to freeze prices, this wont burden people in difficult times. VAT and fuel duty rises are very bad news, and WILL cause problems to everyone.

 

[Lynton]

ouch marc thats a hefty rise.



can i point you back a page or two where someone posted the breakdown of tax on fuel?

Of course you may, though I really don't see the point:shrug:...... and I haven't skipped back a couple of pages, but if I remember correctly... the majority of the pump price is govt duty and VAT is then applied after duty so in effect a double whammy........lets tax you on the tax. :thumbsdown:

(If fuel tax was spent on roads and transport infrastructure i wouldn't mind so much...........!:|)

The manufacturer then takes their cut, leaving the retailer the minnows share......

Sorry, but I do understand fuel pricing and I wince every time I put £70 in the wifes Megane or £50 in my Punto :shrug:


The recent (last 3 months hike - excepting yesterdays 0.76p per litre duty hike) have been solely down to increased prices from the manufacturers........

3/10/10 Shell Diesel in Norwich £1.159 per litre
31/12/10 Shell diesel in Norwich (same Garage) £1.279 per litre.

No duty hikes or VAT increases in that period. All the retailers are trying to pricematch........ leaves the manufacturer..........

This does in fact correlate (if you want to make up the numbers tabloid style) with the price of Brent Crude going from $79.88 on 01/10 compared with $91.40 on 31/12 (14% increase in materials compared with 10% increase on diesel - however that's without factoring in the proportion of a barrel that ends up as diesel, or calculating the proportional increase on the manufacturers share given that duty hadn't changed! - oh, actually, that's quite a hike isn't it! - 12p a litre increase on the manufacturers cut! - or lets say 10p on the man's and 2p on the retailers's)

However, not such a quick downturn when the price of crude drops. :shrug:

Sorry for the heavy maths so late on a Sunday.

But essentially, the fuel companies are not exactly complaining at the government's hikes! More profit for them at the end of the day.

Simples!

 

[waspjunior]

Slightly off thread but related. For those of us in rural areas without mains gas the most popular choice for central heating is oil (kerosene).

Price on 26 November 44p per litre + 5% VAT, This week the cost is 70p per litre + VAT at the same rate. This is being blamed on delivery difficulties when in fact there was only one day when the Humberside refineries were not accessible from here.

OFGEM are looking into the possibility of profiteering as in "do bears poo in the woods". Power point presentations and cocktails all round on Tuesday no doubt.

Rant over, I'm off out now to buy a Toyota IQ and a Tent.

 

[whiteflyer]

Now I've not read every post so it may have been asked and I missed it but, does the VAT go on the top of the price of the fuel (40p) or on the price of fuel + duty (£1) The later would be a tax on tax

 

[wack61]

it seems that a lot of companies are missing the bigger picture. when the recession bit, a few of our suppliers put their prices up, so what did we do? we shopped around and found better prices.

A lot of companies did the same, the problem was the cheaper suppliers were in China/India/Pakistan, we used to be a manufacturing country, now we're an importing country that bolts the imported pieces together then puts a "Made In Britain" sticker on the box.

Now I've not read every post so it may have been asked and I missed it but, does the VAT go on the top of the price of the fuel (40p) or on the price of fuel + duty (£1) The later would be a tax on tax

Unfortunately It's the latter, there's always been tax on tax, car prices are retail + car tax + vat, they just hide it more in the paperwork these days

 

[MartynK]

No-one wants to pay tax, and smuggling has a long and rather romanticised history in the UK, so it's nothing new. A lot of people have always regarded it as a victimless crime. You can make up your own mind about this.

I do think the majority of people will pay their tax/duty without too many complaints if they see it as fair and reasonable. Resentment increases with the perception that its a rip off, and the proceeds are just squandered on welfare benefits, civil service pensions, foreign "aid", EU contributions, green issues and whatever else gets your goat.

When will the last straw be added to the load?

 

[Katchit]

It is my biggest gripe, and i dont think the government realise what damage it will do.

I'd welcome fuel protests, which are being hinted at in the press today.

The government are not helping the economy at all with the lack of disregard they have for motorists and the food-supply chain.

What some people dont seem to be able to get their head around is the fact that higher fuel prices = higher cost of living, which hits everyone. Obviously, there seems to be lots of people, especially on here, who can just absorb and absorb all the increase in fuel, food, etc... and well done to them, but for those who dont have lots of disposable income, then all these increases hurt

You get the idiots who say "its not expensive enough, blah blah", and i imagine those are the people who dont have to look at what is in their wallet and people who can afford the high spec cars and 4x4s, can definitely afford the petrol/diesel they put in it.

They just absorb it because generally, they have more disposable income than other families.

What the higher fuel prices do is hit people with less disposable income, harder, so that they are becoming increasingly concerned with money, and how much more it is going to cost them to go to work, run a car, etc...

For people who live in the countryside, you need a car, there is no public transport, so a car is a must, not a luxury.

The people who have the Porsche, Mercedes, Land Rovers, etc... have a lot more money, so the rises in petrol and diesel prices, doesn't effect them, they are able to just fill their tank up without thinking.

It does nothing to reduce pollution, it just hits families and individuals, who dont have the disposable income, harder

The country is going to be in a mess down to the increases in petrol prices, i really dont think people see how much impact it really has on the whole country, food, economy, etc...

 

[Matt]

It is my biggest gripe, and i dont think the government realise what damage it will do.

I'd welcome fuel protests, which are being hinted at in the press today.

The government are not helping the economy at all with the lack of disregard they have for motorists and the food-supply chain.

What some people dont seem to be able to get their head around is the fact that higher fuel prices = higher cost of living, which hits everyone. Obviously, there seems to be lots of people, especially on here, who can just absorb and absorb all the increase in fuel, food, etc... and well done to them, but for those who dont have lots of disposable income, then all these increases hurt

You get the idiots who say "its not expensive enough, blah blah", and i imagine those are the people who dont have to look at what is in their wallet and people who can afford the high spec cars and 4x4s, can definitely afford the petrol/diesel they put in it.

They just absorb it because generally, they have more disposable income than other families.

What the higher fuel prices do is hit people with less disposable income, harder, so that they are becoming increasingly concerned with money, and how much more it is going to cost them to go to work, run a car, etc...

For people who live in the countryside, you need a car, there is no public transport, so a car is a must, not a luxury.

The people who have the Porsche, Mercedes, Land Rovers, etc... have a lot more money, so the rises in petrol and diesel prices, doesn't effect them, they are able to just fill their tank up without thinking.

It does nothing to reduce pollution, it just hits families and individuals, who dont have the disposable income, harder

The country is going to be in a mess down to the increases in petrol prices, i really dont think people see how much impact it really has on the whole country, food, economy, etc...

Quoted for truth


It's no longer cheaper to buy from china. My company can produce a product cheaper than we can buy from china. Transport I'd the killer on that, over 3k to ship a container now

 

[Katchit]

Why is there no murmuring and threats to blockade anymore then? The FTA and the farmers were all over the costs back then, but now nothing?

If i am not wrong, i think the farmer who was mainly behind the protests and blockades in the past, is now a Conservative representative or has some role with the party.

 

[srichards]

If it is cheaper to produce goods here than that is a very good thing!

Also read in the paper that the twit Eric Pickles has said councils are to be free to set parking charges how they like! Already failing town centres are going to be ghost towns. I used to visit a local town regularly to shop but parking charges were introduced so I don't go there anywhere near as much. The town is much quieter and the once full car park is often half empty. Well done council. You've just killed off a town with your greed. Try slashing useless managers and CEO wages rather than robbing more money off business. It's not as if councils aren't already charging enough in rates and town centre rents anyway.

And then wonder why everyone goes to these out of town bland shopping centres. They're on about wanting to charge people to park in those! Not to mention trying to make people pay to park at work. It's disgusting.

 

[Arkady2]

How do we compare with German prices Rob?

95-ron is between 1.45€-1.50€
98-105ron is between 1.50€ and 1.65€

Prices can fluctuate hourly and it's not uncommon to see the same station change it's forecourt prices according to the time of day.
Cheapest time to buy is late Sunday evenings.
Most expensive is Monday mornings.

Four years ago it made sense to fill up as soon as I hit Belgium on the way to Germany rather than fill up in the UK fiorst.
Now it's the other way round - it's cheaper in the UK than anywhere in France belgium, netherlands or Germany on my most used travel route.

 

[Katchit]

95-ron is between 1.45€-1.50€
98-105ron is between 1.50€ and 1.65€

Prices can fluctuate hourly and it's not uncommon to see the same station change it's forecourt prices according to the time of day.
Cheapest time to buy is late Sunday evenings.
Most expensive is Monday mornings.

Four years ago it made sense to fill up as soon as I hit Belgium on the way to Germany rather than fill up in the UK fiorst.
Now it's the other way round - it's cheaper in the UK than anywhere in France belgium, netherlands or Germany on my most used travel route.

How do wages in Germany compare to the same role within the UK, Rob?

Also, the general cost of living?

 

[MartynK]

If it is cheaper to produce goods here than that is a very good thing!

Also read in the paper that the twit Eric Pickles has said councils are to be free to set parking charges how they like! Already failing town centres are going to be ghost towns. I used to visit a local town regularly to shop but parking charges were introduced so I don't go there anywhere near as much. The town is much quieter and the once full car park is often half empty. Well done council. You've just killed off a town with your greed. Try slashing useless managers and CEO wages rather than robbing more money off business. It's not as if councils aren't already charging enough in rates and town centre rents anyway.

And then wonder why everyone goes to these out of town bland shopping centres. They're on about wanting to charge people to park in those! Not to mention trying to make people pay to park at work. It's disgusting.

I suppose we're quite fortunate here. I live about 3 miles from a small town called Castle Douglas, and all parking is free. Tesco and the high street shops seem to compliment each other quite well too. The nearest "large" town is Dumfries, about 20 miles away, and there is plenty of free parking for 3 hours at a time. I've no idea where the closest big shopping centre is - a long way, I guess!

 

[onomatopoeia]

Also read in the paper that the twit Eric Pickles has said councils are to be free to set parking charges how they like! Already failing town centres are going to be ghost towns.

The idea being to reduce the cost of parking for town centres and high streets, not to increase it.

The previous government instructed councils to set high parking charges to "encourage use of public transport." This instruction has been removed. The restriction in parking provision on new housing developments has also been removed - I moved house last year and the reason I bought a 1950s house rather than a new one is new ones have sweet Fanny Adams worth of parking spaces and garaging.

 

[Arkady2]

How do wages in Germany compare to the same role within the UK, Rob?

Also, the general cost of living?

Wages are about the same as the UK and maybe a bit higher than France and Netherlands.
Cost of living is scarily high: car insurance is about four times as much; vehicle tax about 20% more; our version of council tax about 20% higher.
National Health Insurance about 15% of gross income and tax overall much higher.
Fuel prices are set to rise this year along more or less the same lines as in the UK.
I pay a business tax on the premises I rent for my studio equivalent to the actual rent I pay - that money goes straight to the Stadt and a percentage of that goes to the Government.
Some goods are a bit cheaper - most foods for example, but clothing and other goods are about the same.

Standard of living is much higher - Germans pay a lot for their services and make sure they get them.
For example: the recent heavy snowfalls have meant more clean-up crews working 24-7: we pay for that, but they're out there beasting themselves to keep roads and municipal footpaths clear all day and night.

The Health Service seems to be better funded and maintained. No waiting lists here that I know of. You need something, you get it.

Defence Spending is risible compared to the UK. National Service comes to an end this year and the Bundeswehr will be downsized by about a third.
Involvement in Afghanistan (roughly the same level of commitment as Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands) is going to be curtailed as soon as an exit strategy can be worked out along with the other NATO allies - Germans see our deployment to Afghan as no business of theirs as there have been as yet no terrorist attacks on German soil of note. The politicians 'get it' but there's very little support of the Military here along the lines that we see in the UK.
The recent attacks in Denmark may have woken a couple of people up, but they still don't see the connection here.

 

[chip]

The idea being to reduce the cost of parking for town centres and high streets, not to increase it.

Hmmm.... is that so ??? :shake:

The car park in my local village that offered 30 minutes free parking will be charging from 24th January.

With hardly any free parking within reasonable walking distance, this is another nail in the coffin for the High Street shops.

We currently only have 3 unoccupied shops. It will be interesting to see how this increases during 2011 and how much of that can be attributed to making parking less attractive to shoppers.

 

[srichards]

The idea being to reduce the cost of parking for town centres and high streets, not to increase it.

The previous government instructed councils to set high parking charges to "encourage use of public transport." This instruction has been removed. The restriction in parking provision on new housing developments has also been removed - I moved house last year and the reason I bought a 1950s house rather than a new one is new ones have sweet Fanny Adams worth of parking spaces and garaging.

Then they still shouldn't be free to set their own rates. He should instruct them to reduce them massively. Cash strapped councils will start increasing parking charges or introducing them where they never used to be (Cheshire East take note)

Removing the ludicrous parking space limits is a good move. I'd never buy a new house as the rooms are tiny and as you say there isn't enough parking and garage space.

 

[Matt]

If i am not wrong, i think the farmer who was mainly behind the protests and blockades in the past, is now a Conservative representative or has some role with the party.

Brynle Williams, farmers for action, http://www.brynlewilliams.co.uk/ welsh conservatives

David Handley - http://davidhandley.me.uk/3.html

those are the 2 I remember, both now not that bothered..?

 

[onomatopoeia]

Hmmm.... is that so ??? :shake:

See here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12105869

"It will also no longer instruct councils to set high parking charges to encourage the use of other transport."

What your local council is doing with parking charges is down to them of course, perhaps they will review the decision to charge for parking in the light of the change in Government policy.

 

[Joe T]

Seems to be no correlation between the cost of raw materials and pump price. (other than both gone up)

Dec 08 Brent Crude $36.38 per barrel. Litre of Shell Diesel £0.979
Dec 09 "" $72.91 per barrel "" £1.129
Dec 10 "" $91.40 per barrel "" £1.279

You missed something fundamental in your analysis there...

 

[whiteflyer]

If it is cheaper to produce goods here than that is a very good thing!

Also read in the paper that the twit Eric Pickles has said councils are to be free to set parking charges how they like! Already failing town centres are going to be ghost towns. I used to visit a local town regularly to shop but parking charges were introduced so I don't go there anywhere near as much. The town is much quieter and the once full car park is often half empty. Well done council. You've just killed off a town with your greed. Try slashing useless managers and CEO wages rather than robbing more money off business. It's not as if councils aren't already charging enough in rates and town centre rents anyway.

And then wonder why everyone goes to these out of town bland shopping centres. They're on about wanting to charge people to park in those! Not to mention trying to make people pay to park at work. It's disgusting.

The idea being to reduce the cost of parking for town centres and high streets, not to increase it.

The previous government instructed councils to set high parking charges to "encourage use of public transport." This instruction has been removed. The restriction in parking provision on new housing developments has also been removed - I moved house last year and the reason I bought a 1950s house rather than a new one is new ones have sweet Fanny Adams worth of parking spaces and garaging.

The main thing with the new policy is we now know who to blame. Hopefully this will encourage people to take more note of who they vote for at LOCAL elections. In the village I live in we have had the same councillors for more that 25 years and they do FA for the village, maybe now they get voted out.

 

[nilagin]

We had car park charges and permit parking on the roads by the shops quite a few years ago in our town. OK Car Parks are only 20p for 2hrs max and your not to return to the car park within an hour. Mind you we don't have that many shops left anymore most shops have been turned into 6 charity shops, 4 pizza takeaways, a pizza express restaurant, two burger bars, 3 coffee shops, 3 chinese restaurants, 2 chinese takeaways, one greek restaurant, 2 italian restaurants, 3 fish and chip shops, 3 cafes, a pub that took over a bank and two small shops, 5 hairdressers/barbers, at least 6 estate agents. To be honest and I very seldom actually use any of the shops there. So much easier to go to Tesco, buy online or nip to Lakeside.

 

[classcams]

Why do people say this. Several people cannot afford them! I wish I could, but am stuck with what I have. This is the problem, it doesn't affect those who can afford to change cars, or pay for the cost easily for their second cars, but the average person is the one left shafted again.

How do we compare with German prices Rob?

If you cannot afford the price ogf gas, what are you doing playing around with photography.

 

[Marc]

If you cannot afford the price ogf gas, what are you doing playing around with photography.

What's one got to do with the other? I enjoy my photography, would even say I'm reasonably good at it. Haven't spent any money on it for almost 2 years. :shrug:

 

[neil_g]

At least photography brings money in for some of us..

 

[whitewash]

What classcams is trying to say is that people with low incomes who are annoyed about the price of fuel should not be allowed hobbies or as we like to call it..... connecting two completely unrelated subjects for no apparent reason....

 

[Adamski]

Cash strapped councils will start increasing parking charges or introducing them where they never used to be (Cheshire East take note)

Cheshire East are pillocks when it comes to parking. Macclesfield town centre had no free parking before christmas to try and boost trade. Stockport made the outlying carparks (Marple, Bramhall etc) free on the weekends during December for the local shops. Merseyway was free every day for the 2 weeks before christmas for the town centre shops.

 

[Matt]

If you cannot afford the price ogf gas, what are you doing playing around with photography.

i can afford it, but why should I pay through the nose for it? The 'i can afford it, therefore dont give a crap' attitude is part of the problem and another reason why prices go up and up and up. If we all baulked a little more at high prices then just shoving them up wouldnt be so easy

 

[safecracker]

About time we the motorist did something about it..

Got to agree.

 

[desantnik]

Didn't they make a lot of what went on with the last load of fuel protests illegal and now subject to something mental like the prevention of terrorism act or something really OTT like that?

 

[Splog]

i can afford it, but why should I pay through the nose for it? The 'i can afford it, therefore dont give a crap' attitude is part of the problem and another reason why prices go up and up and up. If we all baulked a little more at high prices then just shoving them up wouldnt be so easy

Exactly! .... Natural price increases are one thing but then there's the ridiculous ... taken two weeks ago!


sponge by SteveP!, on Flickr

 

[OutLore]

Exactly! .... Natural price increases are one thing but then there's the ridiculous ... taken two weeks ago!


sponge by SteveP!, on Flickr

I'm confused

:shrug:

 

[Splog]

I'm confused

:shrug:

It's okay ..... So am I ....

 

[Graham00]

Didn't they make a lot of what went on with the last load of fuel protests illegal and now subject to something mental like the prevention of terrorism act or something really OTT like that?

Yeah Blair put something like that through parliament i remember, quite an undemocratic move, those two Brynle Williams & David Handley probably threatened with a lenghthy prison sentance no doubt.

 

[desantnik]

Oh definitely the ringleaders from before were warned off... and continue to be - if you google "fuel protest" you'll find it crops up about once a year since the "original" ones and you'll also notice how it just seems to fizzle out... and thats probably not due to apathy.

I suspect that they get told that they are personally liable or something for anything that takes place...

Whatever it is, its certainly effective.

 

[classcams]

What classcams is trying to say is that people with low incomes who are annoyed about the price of fuel should not be allowed hobbies or as we like to call it..... connecting two completely unrelated subjects for no apparent reason....

You think gas is expensive. Check the rail fare from, say Manchester to London. You could buy a good lens for that.

 

[OutLore]

It's okay ..... So am I ....

I take it you didn't want to post a picture of a sponge then

 

[chuckles]

Don't you just love Dr. Beeching?

 

[srichards]

If you want to travel from manchester to london you don't have to take the train or pay the expensive prices. Book early, take the car or take a plane. For most people there aren't alternatives to the car. There isn't a bus, or train that is suitable never mind affordable. Quite often it is cheaper to hire a car and put fuel in it rather than pay the extortionate rail prices. This is particularly the case if there are 2 or more of you going.

Making your own bio fuel is the best answer. The first 2500 litres for personal use is entirely tax free. That would cover quite a few miles. It's easy to do with veg oil. You can filter it and use it neat in the summer and dilute it with normal diesel the rest of the time if you don't want to be messing around with the chemical processing.

I also wonder what would happen if you converted your car to run on CNG then filled it from a normal gas main (using a safe method). Wonder if you could class that as a bio fuel if you could mix in some methane from an animal source?