First camera help

PAULSV6 said:
The reason ive set a budget is not because i can not afford it but everything is easier if you chuck thousands at it and thats not a challenge...
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This isn’t true actually, if you want to learn photography ‘properly’ then the principles are the same no matter what the gear. Also, high end gear tends to be more complex and therefore harder to learn. Also correct focus is far more critical with full frame cameras versus APS-C, m4/3 and the other smaller sensor cameras.

People seem to think that buying all the best gear will turn them into great photographers, ......,it won’t.
 
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[QUOTE="PAULSV6, post: 8562878, member: 90973"but everything is easier if you chuck thousands at it ...[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure that‘s true, easiest would be a smartphone currently, but then it dependscwhat you want to photograph ;) which I don’t think you’ve stated.
 
snerkler said:
On that basis I’ll add the go to camera for pros in the recent past, the good old Nikon D700 which can be had for around £350 used.

However, as the 70d was too big and heavy then both these options will be too, hence why I think mirrorless is the best option, and especially m4/3. That weight saving is a god send imo. My wildlife setup has gone from 3kg to 1.4kg and IQ is comparable (y)
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The 6D is one of the smallest and lightest full frame DSLR on the market, coming in at around 755g with battery and memory card fitted and approx. 145 x 111 x 71mm. In actual use I find it handles nicely and doesn't feel bulky to me. Plus there's no way you can seriously compare that outdated 12.1mp fat old bloater (995g 147 x 123 x 77 mm) of a Nikon D700 with a 6D, the 6D knocks it into a cocked hat! Plus it has the WiFi the OP specified as a requirement.

The OP has already stated why mirrorless is not an option too, so I don't think it's fair to keep banging on about how good you think it is, if it's out of his budget. Fair play to him for considering the availability and range of affordable used lenses when weighing up which camera system to choose too. (y)
 
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Mr Badger said:
The 6D is one of the smallest and lightest full frame DSLR on the market, coming in at around 755g with battery and memory card fitted and approx.
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which is roughly the same as the 70d that the OP has said is too heavy. Add to this the weight of FF lenses and it’s going to be even heavier than the 70d (y)
The OP has already stated why mirrorless is not an option too, so I don't think it's fair to keep banging on about how good you think it is, if it's out of his budget. Fair play to him for considering the availability and range of affordable used lenses when weighing up which camera system to choose too. (y)
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I have no preference of DSLR vs mirrorless. The OP stated that mirrorless was out of budget and I’ve just been showing their are options. Also, in terms of expanding the range m4/3 can be pretty cheap in comparison (y)
 
snerkler said:
This isn’t true actually, if you want to learn photography ‘properly’ then the principles are the same no matter what the gear. Also, high end gear tends to be more complex and therefore harder to learn. Also correct focus is far more critical with full frame cameras versus APS-C, m4/3 and the other smaller sensor cameras.

People seem to think that buying all the best gear will turn them into great photographers, ......,it won’t.
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There is a quote in the 4x4 cycle all the gear no idea. I am not willing to put myself in that category even to get a half decent picture.
 
I'm sorry ive asked the question for help to be fair. I've tried researching all the advice people have given and i do appreciate their opinions on cameras. i have decided that I'm not going to buy a mirrorless camera as no site offers more than 10 -15 used lenses for any make or model. yet i can look at any site and their is 50+ used dslr canon lenses on every site. ive decided on the used canon 77d unless anybody can say any really negative to this model????
 
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snerkler said:
which is roughly the same as the 70d that the OP has said is too heavy. Add to this the weight of FF lenses and it’s going to be even heavier than the 70d (y)
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Yes, but he'd be getting full framed bokehlicious beauty with the 6D! :LOL: As I said, it's how the camera feels and handles that matters really, and you can't just go off specified weights and dimensions, can you.. unless it's strayed well into heffalump class?! :giggle:

As for lenses, compared to 'L' class full frame lenses perhaps, but there are plenty of EF lenses out there that aren't the professional 'L' class ones. I've already mentioned the 40mm STM pancake lens (and there's the EF-S 24mm f/2.8 STM version for crop sensor cameras), which is so small and light you hardly know it's on the camera. There's also the 24 105 STM zoom https://www.camerastuffreview.com/en/review-canon-ef-24-105-stm/ and there's also the Canon EF 70 -300 IS Mk 1 and Mk II (a mintish used Mk 1 can be found for comfortably under £200) to chose from, neither of which are particularly heavy for what they offer. (y)

All those Canon EF (not EF-S) lenses should work with full functionality on the 6D too... unlike older Nikon autofocus lenses, with their somewhat complicated 'will only work with partial functionality on the later/latest camera models' limitations, which must be quite confusing for anyone new to the Nikon DSLR world?

As for modern lens sizes, don't even get me started about the size of those dustbins they're putting on the front of full framed mirrorless cameras! :facepalm:
 
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PAULSV6 said:
I'm sorry ive asked the question for help to be fair. I've tried researching all the advice people have given and i do appreciate their opinions on cameras. i have decided that I'm not going to buy a mirrorless camera as no site offers more than 10 -15 used lenses for any make or model. yet i can look at any site and their is 50+ used dslr canon lenses on every site. ive decided on the used canon 77d unless anybody can say any really negative to this model????
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There will nearly always be some slight 'cons' or 'not quites' with a particular model of camera; there will usually be a new and 'improved' model just around the corner too (just like cars!). So once you've decided, then go for it, don't look back, and concentrate on enjoying what you've bought. (y)

I don't think you can go far wrong with most modern Canon or Nikon DSLRs at the moment, they're both excellent makes (despite the 'rival' banter between their owners ;)). Of the two, I believe Canon has a somewhat more intuitive menu navigation system, and there shouldn't be any 'partial functionality only' issues with Canon EF (and EF-S on crop sensor EOS DSLRs) - there may be some with older 'third party' non-Canon EF and EF-S fit lenses though, so do your research before buying any used non-Canon lenses. Most of all, have fun, and best of luck with your new camera. (y)
 
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PAULSV6 said:
I'm sorry ive asked the question for help to be fair. I've tried researching all the advice people have given and i do appreciate their opinions on cameras. i have decided that I'm not going to buy a mirrorless camera as no site offers more than 10 -15 used lenses for any make or model. yet i can look at any site and their is 50+ used dslr canon lenses on every site. ive decided on the used canon 77d unless anybody can say any really negative to this model????
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Ive managed for years with an A6000 and three lenses, 12mm, 24mm and 60mm. :) the 12 and 60 mm are very cheap but extremely good Samyang and Sigma lenses, the 24mm Sony Zeiss can be swapped for a 30mm Sigma and if needed the Sony telezoom is also not that expensive so you can have lenses for your hearts delight cheaply. For Fuji the market is less saturated but you also need time to learn the gear you have so a natural purchase limiter is not a bad thing.
 
So ive order my first (used) canon 77d and have been talking to a friend who uses a nikon d7200 and had a a bit of a play and now regretting buying it before it even arrives. How the the hell do you choose a camera.....
 
Eh, the Canon v Nikon thing goes back at least 40 years... When it comes, use it, take pictures... Both will allow you to take decent shots, just as a Nikon owner using a Canon will feel odd and vice versa.
 
PAULSV6 said:
So ive order my first (used) canon 77d and have been talking to a friend who uses a nikon d7200 and had a a bit of a play and now regretting buying it before it even arrives. How the the hell do you choose a camera.....
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If it's from a dealer then distance selling regs mean that you can send it back & say you changed your mind. You seemed set on Canon, and shouting "NO! Dont't do it!" at the screen seemed like a waste of time. ;)

While it's still early in the game, would you like us to bust the myth about no lenses being available for mirrorless cameras too? :p
 
hunnymonster said:
Eh, the Canon v Nikon thing goes back at least 40 years... When it comes, use it, take pictures... Both will allow you to take decent shots, just as a Nikon owner using a Canon will feel odd and vice versa.
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Yeah ive lost my will to live over this debate id set my mind on a canon 250d that went out the window and went 77d now should i have bought the 80d now should I have bought a nikon. Only thing I'm sure if ive ordered a curry b****r Bhuna or jalfrezi aagghhhaa.....
 
ancient_mariner said:
If it's from a dealer then distance selling regs mean that you can send it back & say you changed your mind. You seemed set on Canon, and shouting "NO! Dont't do it!" at the screen seemed like a waste of time. ;)

While it's still early in the game, would you like us to bust the myth about no lenses being available for mirrorless cameras too? :p
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Oh b*****ks I'm getting p***ed now!!!!!!!
 
Trouble is asking enthusiasts for there point of view will result in this type of confusion . .. we all tend to favour the make or type that we own .. there is no magic formula a camera and lens will take a photo any make any lens .. you will then still need a computer to process the shots plus a program to do it on ..
You have now bought a camera have a play . Look at your results .. then come back with your views and ask the next step .. like you should have done initially ... I.e if you had bought from Wex you have a 30 day period to decide to keep or send back that goes for all cameras and lenses
 
Pick one (77D) run with it. If you're unhappy after actually using it, trade it in and try something different.

Personally I have no issues using any camera from any manufacturer - just those from the manufacturer I habitually use feel better in use (not having to think what does Tv mean? Or what does this S mean?)

And if you want three opinions - ask two photographers :cool:
 
PAULSV6 said:
Oh b*****ks I'm getting p***ed now!!!!!!!
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Lay off the booze then - it won't help you choose. ;)

There's a huge range of cameras etc available, and pretty much everything from the last 5 years is capable of taking a great picture. The things that should drive your choice are how it feels in your hands, what features it has that you *think* you need at this stage and what you can afford. Going back to your list of features:

Things I am wanting on the camera.
1. reasonable ability to shot in low light
2. reasonable ability to focus on moving objects Pets/kids etc
3 swivel touch screen
4. bluetooth
5. available used lenses and accessories
6. Not going to outgrow it in 6-12 months.
7. reasonable weight
8. buttons that will cope with sausage finger

There's probably little to choose between that and your mate's D7200 TBH. My personal feeling is that Canon have slightly better AF and make some specialised lenses (that you'll never buy) Nikon have better sensors (bought from Sony) and the ability to mount and use lenses from the last 40+ years (that you'll never use). Apart from that there's little to choose between them really, and the 77D would probably be a fine camera with which to learn to take photographs.
 
I hear where your coming from Paul, im new to all this aswell and my head spins when ever I hear it all. ive started with a Nikon d5200 and a 18-200mm lens, just awaiting delivery of a 18-55 lens won for £50 on ebay from a shop called alldigital0869 based in the midlands, got some good gear on there from what I can see and reasonably priced.
 
PAULSV6 said:
So ive order my first (used) canon 77d and have been talking to a friend who uses a nikon d7200 and had a a bit of a play and now regretting buying it before it even arrives. How the the hell do you choose a camera.....
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See post 8 and 13 where it was recommended going to a shop and handling them.
 
@PAULSV6

I started in digital with a 6.1MP Nikon D70 and you know what? I took great photos with it.

You'll be fine with whatever you've got (77D by the looks of it).

I only mentioned Olympus as I've got one and it's superb (I've also just bought a Sony full frame but that's by the by, it does things the Olympus can't).

Enjoy it, learn with it and keep asking questions. Watch Youtube vids and practice what's been taught.

Welcome to a hobby that, if you get hooked, will swallow the thousands you currently have.

Terry.


Here's a shot on a 6.1MP ancient DSLR.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/4YsKBR]_DSC8506 by Terence Rees, on Flickr[/URL]


And here's one from a 12MP old DSLR.


[url=https://flic.kr/p/G7SHR1]Stormy Lyme Regis (1 of 1) by Terence Rees, on Flickr[/URL]
 
The canon 80d and nikon 7500d are the things that pushed my head into melt down. To be honest ive looked and and thought about mirrorless but i just can not see it being a honest finance possibility or for the next few years. Even used len price scare me...
 
You've picked one. Now stop looking at others... Until you know what you might want in your next one. Otherwise its purely masochism (I was that soldier in 1985... Bought a s/h Canon AE-1, but should I have bought the AE-1P or the A-1? Or the F-1, or should I have bought a Nikon, or a Minolta....)
 
You said you didn’t want to chuck thousands at it as it’s easy..

Used fuji xe1, cost me £97
Used fuji 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 cost me £100

So under £200 for a set up that can shoot most things except wildlife.
I do also have a full frame Nikon dslr and a bag of lenses that I now pretty much never use.. I don’t need or want to lug it all around with me.

Spend what you like, the gear is more or less irrelevant if you are just starting out.You need to learn how to actually take photographs and adjust the settings to get the desired effect.
If it were me, I’d start cheap and see if I actually like taking photographs rather than drop a load of money on something that might end up in a cupboard.

20BpD.jpg


hyhCn.jpg


A5OTY.jpg
 
PAULSV6 said:
So ive order my first (used) canon 77d and have been talking to a friend who uses a nikon d7200 and had a a bit of a play and now regretting buying it before it even arrives. How the the hell do you choose a camera.....
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You could send it back as is your right when buying online, I’d have recommended a D7200 plus 18-55 and 55-300 mm lenses (purely as I know Nikon well and nothing about Canon) but in all honesty what you’ve ordered will probably be more than fine. The craft of photography is far more important than the kit, although good gear does bring it’s advantages (mostly technical rather than artistic). How do you know your friend won’t be jealous over your Canon when it arrives?
 
hunnymonster said:
You've picked one. Now stop looking at others... Until you know what you might want in your next one. Otherwise its purely masochism (I was that soldier in 1985... Bought a s/h Canon AE-1, but should I have bought the AE-1P or the A-1? Or the F-1, or should I have bought a Nikon, or a Minolta....)
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I had (and still have) a Canon A1 (and it still works!), and if I could take photos like the one below (scanned from a print) with it on 1000 ISO film and a manual focus 80-200 f/4.5 lens in available light at gigs then I'm sure the OP should find his new Canon 77D more than capable for most types of photography.

So stop fretting, Paul, and concentrate on enjoying what you've bought, I'm sure it will prove to be more than good enough, plus it's around 225g lighter than that Nikon you mentioned, and it's got touch screen technology too! (y) :)

 
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I really can’t see what scares you about mirrorless , it’s the way the market is heading with each new model bringing something new to the table . Bet within two years you will have switched
 
the black fox said:
I really can’t see what scares you about mirrorless , it’s the way the market is heading with each new model bringing something new to the table . Bet within two years you will have switched
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He's already said, it's the price that scares him. Mirrorless may well be where he is in 2 years time, but he may then be buying today's latest mirrorless model on the used market at less than half the price it costs now!

On the other hand, he may have decided photography wasn't really for him and packed it in, but lost very little money in trying his hand at it by going down his current route of a reasonably-priced, used DSLR, for which used lenses are plentiful and quite cheap. :)
 
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Buyers remorse and uncertainty comes for free with each and every purchase untill youve reached the point where you realize it's not the camera or lenses but it's All on the matter behind the finder
 
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Nikon f1.8 said:
There are some interesting points made here regarding Mirrorless and DSLR's.
View: https://youtu.be/ZGTTbzx5ejM
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Very interesting video; I often think it pays to watch the market for a couple of years before making my mind up. My Dad also thought that way and over the years we managed to save money by not buying a Betamax video recorder, an APS 35mm film camera, Blue-ray video disk player, a music centre and all those other seemingly wonderful at the time 'must haves' that some people flocked to.

Mirrorless cameras may suit some people's requirements very well indeed, but 'now' may still be too soon to invest heavily in any one particular system (unless it's going to save you time/make you money and you only tend to keep your kit for a couple of years before renewing/replacing/upgrading anyway... or you're not too concerned if you've jumped ship to the wrong vessel).

The introduction of mirrorless cameras doesn't mean that DSLRs will instantly stop working or become obsolete overnight, and I agree with Tony Northrup, I think the DSLR system will be around for quite a few years yet... perhaps unlike some current mirrorless systems?
 
PAULSV6 said:
I'm sorry ive asked the question for help to be fair. I've tried researching all the advice people have given and i do appreciate their opinions on cameras. i have decided that I'm not going to buy a mirrorless camera as no site offers more than 10 -15 used lenses for any make or model. yet i can look at any site and their is 50+ used dslr canon lenses on every site. ive decided on the used canon 77d unless anybody can say any really negative to this model????
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But whatever lens you’re buying; you only need one, it doesn’t really matter whether you can find 5 or 50 for sale,

It’s flawed logic, probably influenced by your automotive background and ‘availability’ of spares.

Not trying to influence your decision; I’m bored telling newbies that the decision about their first camera is trivial. They always ignore the key advice and are forced into learning from their own mistakes.

The whole point in asking for advice is to learn from the experience of others, but people really only want their own decisions ratified.

As for what bells and whistles are important, a decent AF system will make or break your experience, Bluetooth is pointless it doesn’t have the data bandwidth required for photography. A tilt and swivel screen is a nice to have, photographers use viewfinders.
 
I totally ignore anything that tony Northrup puts up , he is deliberately controversial to get views on utube . There are far to many variables in choosing kit . Plus I have seen far to many people invest heavily in kit and I’m taking thousands and then shoot purely record shots in j.peg , because they can’t learn how to process .. it’s like the guys who used to develope and print there in a home darkroom versus the one ones who took there film to boots . Buy what you like take your pictures and post them end of
 
Mr Badger said:
Very interesting video; I often think it pays to watch the market for a couple of years before making my mind up. My Dad also thought that way and over the years we managed to save money by not buying a Betamax video recorder, an APS 35mm film camera, Blue-ray video disk player, a music centre and all those other seemingly wonderful at the time 'must haves' that some people flocked to.
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So with Fuji and sony on their third and fourth/fifth generation after 5? years and with increasing popularity and love from the reviewers whats your conclusion?
Mr Badger said:
Mirrorless cameras may suit some people's requirements very well indeed, but 'now' may still be too soon to invest heavily in any one particular system (unless it's going to save you time/make you money and you only tend to keep your kit for a couple of years before renewing/replacing/upgrading anyway... or you're not too concerned if you've jumped ship to the wrong vessel).
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Apart from the newcomers I dont see any reason for concern about the future of the mirrorless market in APSC and 24X36 formats
Mr Badger said:
The introduction of mirrorless cameras doesn't mean that DSLRs will instantly stop working or become obsolete overnight, and I agree with Tony Northrup, I think the DSLR system will be around for quite a few years yet... perhaps unlike some current mirrorless systems?
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I agree
 
Fallacy Number 3 after 'You need a top quality camera to take great photos' and 'You need lots of lenses to take great photos' must surely be 'You need to shoot in RAW to take great photos'. When starting out, I believe it's far better to learn the basics of how to get things looking good straight from the camera, without getting wrapped up in trying to turn sow's ears into silk purses in post processing.
 
Phil V said:
But whatever lens you’re buying; you only need one, it doesn’t really matter whether you can find 5 or 50 for sale,

It’s flawed logic, probably influenced by your automotive background and ‘availability’ of spares.

Not trying to influence your decision; I’m bored telling newbies that the decision about their first camera is trivial. They always ignore the key advice and are forced into learning from their own mistakes.

The whole point in asking for advice is to learn from the experience of others, but people really only want their own decisions ratified.

As for what bells and whistles are important, a decent AF system will make or break your experience, Bluetooth is pointless it doesn’t have the data bandwidth required for photography. A tilt and swivel screen is a nice to have, photographers use viewfinders.
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I wasn't ignoring the advise of experienced people but being pushed towards mirrorless was not something i was interested in. As far as the lenses do you only use one lens??? of a choice of a few???
 
soeren said:
So with Fuji and sony on their third and fourth/fifth generation after 5? years and with increasing popularity and love from the reviewers whats your conclusion?
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After a fourth/fifth generation in 5 years my conclusion would have to be that the current model will most likely soon be outdated.

In the meantime I'll watch with interest and let other people pay for all that research and development. :whistle:
 
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Mr Badger said:
Fallacy Number 3 after 'You need a top quality camera to take great photos' and 'You need lots of lenses to take great photos' must surely be 'You need to shoot in RAW to take great photos'. When starting out, I believe it's far better to learn the basics of how to get things looking good straight from the camera, without getting wrapped up in trying to turn sow's ears into silk purses in post processing.
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Ive set the camera to take RAW and jpeg pics. Im not even going to try editing anything yet as im more concerned about learning setting etc. but if ive got the RAW ones that I like i can go back to them in the future.
 
PAULSV6 said:
Ive set the camera to take RAW and jpeg pics. Im not even going to try editing anything yet as im more concerned about learning setting etc. but if ive got the RAW ones that I like i can go back to them in the future.
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As long as you have the disk space then I think that's a sensible approach. Hope you're enjoying your new camera and wish you the best of luck; it's a great hobby if you don't weaken! :giggle:
 
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