Beginner Filtering = cheating?

Thatchapthere

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Hi Guys, noob to the forum and said a former hello in the Welcome section :)

I'm at entry level and wondered what the view was on filtering? I personally have never used it as I want the end result to be as close to what I see as possible,
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I have seen filtering to the effect it looks cartoonish and is so far removed from the original image. Is filtering considered a cheat touch-up, as it is an artificial enhancement?

Cheers!
 
Hi, Welcome to the forum. You might want to define what you mean by filtering, as there are lots out there and also why you think it's 'cheating'..
 
Hi, Reglansurf.

I'm referring to colour specifically; of which appears to be exaggerated and unnatural...Hope that makes sense..

Post-shutter..
 
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Filtering for me is almost essential for outdoors. The difference in the sky to the land can be too excessive for the camera to handle. I only own nd filters and a polarizer though, never had the need to add other colours, if you mean over saturation and too much vibrance of natural colours I agree with you there.
 
I've started to bracket my shots out in the field and then merge my shots in PP afterwards. Saves me messing around with filters when my fingers are freezing and also saves me about £300 if i went for a LEE system.
 
Depending on the OP's software, maybe we are talking about applying filters in post processing to change colour, saturation, hdr or whatever, rather than lens filters?
 
Depending on the OP's software, maybe we are talking about applying filters in post processing to change colour, saturation, hdr or whatever, rather than lens filters?
Yes, post-shutter/production. I'm still learning and can now appreciate there is a necessity for lens filters to counteract UV etc.
 
Yes, post-shutter/production. I'm still learning and can now appreciate there is a necessity for lens filters to counteract UV etc.

It looks like you want to go for realism, and that's absolutely fine. Sometimes the end result doesn't look quite how you recalled it at the time, and I don't think there is anything wrong in tweaking the photo to achieve that result. The other thing here is how you set up your camera in the first place with regard to colour, saturation, etc, or even if you've set it for a specific film look if that is an option. Unless you are doing this for money, you should aim for the end result that suits you, and never mind PP filtration. (y)
 
I'm at entry level and wondered what the view was on filtering? I personally have never used it as I want the end result to be as close to what I see as possible,
.

Your italicised words neatly points up the difference between us. I would substitute "I feel" for your "I see", and that makes all the difference. For me, the image isn't the same thing as the reality, and the "reality" was only something that existed fleetingly in my experience and continued in my memory. The image is the permanent record, rather than the intransient reality that gave rise to it. So for me, the final image is everything, and if it's a long way off what was there (or how others would have perceived what was there) it doesn't bother me.

The image will always be different anyway as it's an artifical construction to place a three dimensional subject (usually) onto a two dimensional surface for viewing. And given that I'm a black and white photographer anyway, I don't have a lot of choice in making my photographs look like what most people see. But if we want to get really off topic, we could ask whether "colour" really exists anyway outside our own minds. Different wavelengths of light, yes; but colours?
 
But if we want to get really off topic, we could ask whether "colour" really exists anyway outside our own minds. Different wavelengths of light, yes; but colours?

Does that mean I can get a Black and White TV licence instead of a Colour one? :banana::exit:
 

AFAIC, anything that will give the closest rendition to Mother Nature's look
is not called a cheat but ingenuity!
 

AFAIC, anything that will give the closest rendition to Mother Nature's look
is not called a cheat but ingenuity!
This^ and anything that you create from your imagination that communicates with others is called creativity.

It's fine if the OP isn't interested in doing this, but to describe it as 'cheating' is rather missing the point.

Edit for clarity:

Taking a crap snapshot and adding an Instagram filter is neither ingenious or creative, nor is it cheating, it's just someone's idea of fun, to be ignored by anyone who sees it for what it is.
 
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Another thing to remember is that a digital sensor doesnt see the image the same as a human eye, it will see the same image but not colours in the same way, so some adjustment may be nessesary at the end.
 
Another thing to remember is that a digital sensor doesnt see the image the same as a human eye, it will see the same image but not colours in the same way, so some adjustment may be nessesary at the end.

Not to mention that no two humans will perceive the scene in exactly the same way either. Variations between the amount and distribution of the rods and cones in the eyes themselves, as well as variations (inherited and learned) in how the brain processes the signals from the eyes etc.

When you look at a scene what you ‘see’ (perceive) has already had some work done in ‘post’...
  • It is a panorama stitched together from multiple stills from a video feed
  • It has had an edge detection filter applied
  • It has had a feature detection filter applied (think of this as a filter to enhance faces for example)
  • It has been colour corrected (remember all those optical illusions, where you see two different shades of grey when they are actually the same).
Intelligent use of filters (either pre or post) shot to try to bring the image back to what you perceived isn't cheating.
 
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Does that mean I can get a Black and White TV licence instead of a Colour one? :banana::exit:

You need to get three. One for each channel of red, green and blue.

When you look at a scene what you ‘see’ (perceive) has already had some work done in ‘post’...
  • It is a panorama stitched together from multiple stills from a video feed
  • It has had an edge detection filter applied
  • It has had a feature detection filter applied (think of this as a filter to enhance faces for example)
  • It has been colour corrected (remember all those optical illusions, where you see two different shades of grey when they are actually the same).

And a fair amount of noise reduction to remove all the crap floating around in our eye fluid.


Steve.
 
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When I read your initial post @Thatchapthere my first reaction was "how can something over the lens of the camera make images look 'cartoonish'..." - then of course it dawned upon me that you were probably referring to the abominations that are "Instagram Filters" and their ilk... (other image manipulation presets of varying degrees of over-blown-ness are available should you wish to create picures that look just like everyone else that uses the same filters)

Based on that assumption - that by "filtering" you mean applying a preset filter to your own capture in order to "improve" it in some way - do I feel that it's cheating? No. I actually feel that what it is doing is selling the image and yourself short, by not giving the image the degree of care and attention it deserves in post-production and instead slapping someone elses "one size fits all" manipulation of Contrast, Colour Balance, Saturation, Sharpening et.al. - Instead, I'd suggest that you go back to first principles...

1) before taking the shot, ask yourself what you want to "say" with the end image...
2) try and pre-visualise the end result before even raising your camera to your eye (or placing it on the tripod)
3) Get the composition right (not necessarily by adherance to "the rules", but by understanding what works and what doesn't, in the context of #1 in this list)
4) Get the exposure right (a relatively simple process in this era of highly automated cameras) - a lot of hobby photographers like to think that this is the difficult part, but it's simply balancing exposure time, aperture and iso - and as most cameras can actually let you set one of the three and they'll sort the other 2 for you, it really, really isn't difficult)
5) if it's appropriate for the shot (i.e. landscapes or other stuff that's going nowhere) WAIT FOR THE LIGHT. Without the kind of light you want for #1 and #2, you're making it hard/impossible for yourself.
6) take the shot, get it home and look at it. Decide if it meets your criteria for #1 and #2. If not, THEN consider pulling it into some form of post processing software like Lightroom, Photoshop (elements or the more expensive full versions) or one of many, many other flavours of software - they don't have to be expensive - indeed there's a very powerful image editing software that's completely free called Gimp . They're powerful tools, and can do many, many things to and for your images. Initially, you'll probably over-process the shots - most people do. My advice is always keep your original files as well as the edits - because 6 months along the line, you'll be bored, and re-visit the first stuff you did, and with a few months of experience you'll do a re-edit that'll knock the spots off the first attempt.


Don't get hung up on "straight out of camera is best" - it's always best practice to get things as right as you can in camera obviously - what's missed at the capture stage can't be put back by post processing - BUT - processing pictures after they were exposed is nothing new, most of the regularly used tools in Photoshop are actually digital derivations of techniques that were used in on film in the old fashioned "wet" processing days...

I'll leave you with a couple of Quotations...

“You don't take a photograph, you make it.”

“You don't make a photograph just with a camera. You bring to the act of photography
all the pictures you have seen, the books you have read, the music you have heard, the people you have loved.”

“The negative is the equivalent of the composer’s score, and the print the performance.”


– Ansel Adams​
 
Lots of good thoughts in here.

To me, a shot straight out of camera (SOOC) looks nothing like what I see when I view a scene. That's partly because there is no photographic equivalent of the active compensation we have running in our eyes for a very wide dynamic range, and partly because the brain tends to ignore stuff you don't want to see, like telegraph wires, spots and pimples or litter. It can be really frustrating sometimes to be walking or driving past something, 'see' an image in my mind, but then find reality can't be tweaked to match in camera. If I want my pictures to look like what I see then I have to deal with all that stuff as part of processing an image, and that can mean doing some drastic things with dynamic range, cloning to remove unwanted stuff etc - all to make the image look 'real'.

Some people see images SOOC as having some kind of purity, and I understand that, yet at the same time what they're doing is simply accepting the camera (or film) manufacturer's preferences instead of their own.
 
Lots of great words here, thanks! On the back of this thread I've purchased some lens filters to help me with my journey. Nice to see insight and knowledge shared.
 
Edit for clarity:

Taking a crap snapshot and adding an Instagram filter is neither ingenious or creative, nor is it cheating, it's just someone's idea of fun, to be ignored by anyone who sees it for what it is.

For the past 6 months I've tried a slightly different approach to my post processing to get the image I like. It's not exactly realistic but it's also not wildly untrue. I like the outcome and it pleased me, if others don't like it then they can look at other photostreams and no one has lost out.
 
Sorry, there's probably a topic somewhere, but is Photoshop recommended?
Just viewing tutorials at the moment..nothing else.
 
Sorry, there's probably a topic somewhere, but is Photoshop recommended?
Just viewing tutorials at the moment..nothing else.

I'd start with Lightroom - a great tool to create photo libraries and all of the basic adjustments can be applied really easily (exposure, contract, shadows, highlights etc). At this stage, Photoshop might be overkill.
 
Post production manipulation of an image comes down to preference, and there are no rights an wrongs. I like my photos to look as genuine as possible, but then there are those that like the extremely dramatic or extreme look, or those that add/delete things almost to the point that the final images bears little resemblance to the original shot. I personally feel that the latter is less about photography and more about software skills, but that's just an opinion too.

As for software, lightroom is probably one of the easiest to get to grips with and for straight forward editing offers me 99% of what photoshop can do. Photoshop does have much more advanced features but then I feel that I'm starting to move away from the original image. Plus I can't be bothered to spend hours tweaking one photo ;) :p
 
I'd love to see an image taken Vs its post-production comparison thread, so i can make my mind up my - a kind of unsheathing of the photographer..
 
I'd love to see an image taken Vs its post-production comparison thread, so i can make my mind up my - a kind of unsheathing of the photographer..

Well, you can see the finished version of one of mine here, and the basic scan here.

.
 
Genuine as measured by what standard?
Based on how it was in real life seen with the naked eye. Genuine probably wasn't the best way to describe it, probably should have said as true to life as I saw it as possible ;)
 
Yes, post-shutter/production. I'm still learning and can now appreciate there is a necessity for lens filters to counteract UV etc.

Most if not all lenses have u.v protection built in so there is really not a need for that one unless you are looking for protection but personally I don't consider filter much of protection.

I'm sure there are photoshop gurus that can duplicate about anything but for us average joes there are no substitutes for certain filters. They are a very important part of a kit.
 
Most if not all lenses have u.v protection built in so there is really not a need for that one unless you are looking for protection but personally I don't consider filter much of protection.

I'm sure there are photoshop gurus that can duplicate about anything but for us average joes there are no substitutes for certain filters. They are a very important part of a kit.
Agreed, lightroom has grad filters but it can't do anything if part of your sky's blown out for example. Also, it's difficult and time consuming to recreate the effect of a CPL. Sure boosting contrast goes some way to it, but it's not the same.
 
Taking a crap snapshot and adding an Instagram filter is neither ingenious or creative, nor is it cheating, it's just someone's idea of fun, to be ignored by anyone who sees it for what it is.

I think I may have just found a new quotation for my signature...
 
Cheating? Some consider making "significant" changes on the computer a bad thing. Others say that it's the results that count. You can choose what you prefer, and where you draw the line on what defines "significant" changes.
 
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