FILM Photographer of the year

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I want make it clear that this isn't sour grapes because Steve has produced some cracking shots this year and deserves the prize, but it might have been a bit closer if two of my entries, March and November, hadn't disappeared into the ether....
I know it isn't anyone's fault but its just a bit frustrating, bl#ody emails....:mad::D
 
That's really tough, Andy. Once would be bad enough, twice must be really hard to bear.
 
So any one entering 2015? I've not decided yet, having a ongoing assignment was quite good but I've got another couple of personal projects I want to attend to so I'm not sure. I've got something for Feb just in case and January should be simple enough if I can get the shots I want and the slides back in time.
 
nope, the judging was too random and some of the feedback on the film shots was just odd. Im going to be tied up with coursework and my own little projects i think.
 
I'm still thinking about it. I would expect the field to be wider and the standard higher this year, given the additional freedom, and I think I noticed that judges' points only go to their first 10 places. This implies even less chances of getting points. From my experience in the first part of last year, getting zero points month after month is quite depressing! OTOH I do like to have something to shoot for, and the monthly target seems about right.
 
I still haven't made my mind up, for me there are far too many 'open' months. I struggled last year with months like this:-

March - You may chose either to take an image that fits with the following theme and/or style.
Theme - Architecture.
Style - Monochrome. (Black and colour, usually, white)


Now with the best will in the world I don't think its easy or particularly sensible to try judge an architecture shot against a monochrome shot of just anything. Also, like @AshleyC I did get a little frustrated with some of the comments regarding the use of film and like @ChrisR was left disappointed in those months where neither points nor any constructive criticism were forthcoming. And before anyone gets all defensive I am very appreciative of the time and effort of Darren and the judges put into the competition but felt a little lost some of the time.

Another reason I'm still not convinced I'll do the POTY this year is that last year I found myself not posting photos I had shot just in case they looked too familiar to a POTY entry or that I may end up needing the shot for later in the year if my planned shot didn't work out. So I hardly posted anything on TP or on Flickr last year and missed the fun (p***-taking) and the feedback I'd get from other f&c members and that has been part of the enjoyment of this section of the forum for the last 5 years.

So, the jury's still out, I may end up doing it but will take a different approach and I'm going to do the TP 52/2015 this year and will probably mix film and digital as and when it's convenient, so I will have a regular challenge to keep me busy.
 
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I will definitely be entering, I really enjoyed the challenge last year, although it took me a while to get my sh*t together I did OK.
I do agree with Nick about the themes for last year, there were some months that were very contradictory, but this year seems to be a bit more straightforward.
 
The problem I see with relatively few filmies entering the main competition, is that you have to get some judges points to get any film points. With judges only giving points down to 10th this year, it will be harder to get those points. I got no judges points, and therefore no film points for the first 7 or so months last year. [Edited to add: I'm not complaining about that, it was quite fair, most of the ntries were rubbish, but it was nevertheless very dispiriting...]

Now that there are no prizes at stake, the benefits of the partly merged digital/film competition are reduced. My suggestion would be to separate the two competitions. Not to stop filmies from entering the main competition, but not to have the special film subsection of the main competition (so that a film camera would be just another camera). Then have a separate film competition. We could even run it ourselves, with judging by multiple choice voting (by the entrants if necessary). This is basically what we do anyway, with the "monthly" film challenge, but just tightened up a bit so we know the themes in advance, have fixed closing dates and judging periods, etc. Simplest would be to use the same themes etc as the main competition. I think this might encourage more filmies to enter regularly. The "monthly" challenge gets anywhere from 3-4 to nearly 20 entries, depending on the theme; if the FPOTY 2015 title was at stake, that number might build up a bit.

Anyway, them's my thoughts...
 
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Either that or assign the points separately, so using the same rank as achieved in the main competition but allocate points down the list. Effectively the film score is independent of the main score.
 
Like @RaglanSurf, the reduced flow of shots to the forum and my Flickr stream has been the biggest downside to taking part last year and is probably the biggest off put to entering this year.

As I've said before I don't really think my style, if one can be charitable, really fits competition but a deadline and an honest opinion is quite valuable. While I don't think the judges always "get" film I don't think that's their problem. Much like the style I chose to shoot it's my choice to enter on film and if I'm not willing to enter shots that suit the competition that's on me not the judges.
 
Thanks for the feedback chaps.

@ChrisR

I do see where you're coming from as far as just ranking the top 10 is concerned and it's something I've thought about as well. The idea of top 10 only was to speed up the Judging process, I could sound out the judges as to whether they would do comments for the top 10 only but still rank the remaining entries. This would still be less work for them than 2014. It would then ensure that the top 10 film entries all received points.

@steveo_mcg

I do understand the frustration with not being able to post photos on the forum or flickr but it does tend to cause issues when it comes to anonymity with regards to the judging. When you say that you don't think the judges "get" film, is this because you believe they judge a photo differently because it was shot on film or that they don't and you think they should do so? If the former, I wasn't planning on actually labelling the entries as to whether they are shot on film or not.
 
one of the "not getting film" comments that occurred to me was a film shot taken on FP4 in B&W recieved comments about the "conversion" to Black and White... I actually mentioned this in the judging thread and even then it wasn't picked up on...
 
From some comments I've seen over the last couple of years that I've entered there have been observations regarding shots such as not understanding why a shot has been converted to b&w, forgetting that for us filmies, converting is not a choice. For me it just shows a lack of understanding and an assumption that all entries are digital.
 
@fabs I don't think it's judged any differently and I think it's mainly opinion and the expectations from a digital era, super saturation, sharpened to hell and back. But the one comment that really sticks in the craw, and I think I speak for most, is talking of "conversion" when the image has been visualised, planned and executed using b&w film.
 
one of the "not getting film" comments that occurred to me was a film shot taken on FP4 in B&W recieved comments about the "conversion" to Black and White... I actually mentioned this in the judging thread and even then it wasn't picked up on...

From some comments I've seen over the last couple of years that I've entered there have been observations regarding shots such as not understanding why a shot has been converted to b&w, forgetting that for us filmies, converting is not a choice. For me it just shows a lack of understanding and an assumption that all entries are digital.

@fabs I don't think it's judged any differently and I think it's mainly opinion and the expectations from a digital era, super saturation, sharpened to hell and back. But the one comment that really sticks in the craw, and I think I speak for most, is talking of "conversion" when the image has been visualised, planned and executed using b&w film.

Ok, I can see a theme developing (sorry) here.

From what I'm seeing, I think it is going to be very difficult to judge film against digital to everybody's satisfaction so, and I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the solution is. I'd hate to lose the film photographers from the competition but do you think it'll be better stripped out and operated as a completely separate Film POTY?
 
personally i would just want judges to adhere to the monthly topic. There were several occasions when the high points winners had nothing to do with the topic. There are too many "open" months this year and its simply impossible for anyone to judge different compositions / styles together. Id like them to have a broader appreciation of an image other than what you see on a biscuit tin lid, and as above, realise that with film we don't actually have to convert anything. That just struck as total ignorance to the medium.

As an aside, i think the administration of the competition was second to none though and i cant thank the admins enough for managing it.
 
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It'll be a while before we get the December results back, but I've been doing some maths and it seems to me that @Steve might rather have won himself a Leica, no matter how well he does in the last round! If I'm right, congratulations Steve, that's two years in a row.

Thanks Chris...I think that is right, and am delighted to have won it. I have still entered a film photo for December to ensure a full 12 month of entries
 
Ok, I can see a theme developing (sorry) here.

From what I'm seeing, I think it is going to be very difficult to judge film against digital to everybody's satisfaction so, and I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the solution is. I'd hate to lose the film photographers from the competition but do you think it'll be better stripped out and operated as a completely separate Film POTY?

I don't think (or at least I hope) that nobody who's shooting film actually wants any kind of special treatment because they're (it'd be we're but I don't feel comfortable helping out with the running AND entering the comp. - it's just too messy.) shooting on film. We shoot on film because that's what we enjoy working with, and, certainly speaking for myself, because I like the look that I get from working with film.

My suggestion would be a sort of 2 fold approach...

1) Remind the judges that if something is shot in B&W on film, it's almost 100% guaranteed to be a stylistic choice made at the start of the project, NOT a conversion to rescue an image that was shot with the wrong white-balance or in unfortunate mixed lighting conditions.

2) Run the film entries as part of the normal competition - so if they get in the top 10 they get points for the main competition as normal. Plus, get one or more of the judges to at least rank the top 10 film shots, so that everyone who shoots on film will have a chance of getting points for the FPOTY leaderboard. It always seemed rather tough that there could be half a dozen film shots and no points accrued - certainly a reason where you could expect a drop off in numbers entering on film.


As to the issue of judges "keeping to the brief" - well - it's a tough one... The themes/topics for this year are deliberately a little less prescriptive, partly to encourage a wider entry and partly to encourage people thinking "outside the box" a little. I know that in the 3.5 years I entered the competition there were months when I looked at the subject and just went "well, that's me screwed then" - then went away pulled out my thesaurus, did a little thinking about things and came up with a twist on the title that would work for me... sometimes it worked and I got votes/points, often it didn't and I shrugged my shoulders and thought "well, at least I tried". Frankly, I'd sooner look at something thats had an imaginative and creative spin put onto the theme than a whole row of same old, same old...

The judges are on a thankless task - if they're too regimented and prescriptive in their marking, people spit their dummy out and say they're dismissing anything creatively interpreted - if they embrace a more open minded approach, people say "that wasn't to the spec." - At the end of the day, they're all people who've actually won the POTY in the past, in most cases iirc back when the comp. was "peer voted", so they've been kind of appointed by the membership already...

Ultimately, they are the judges, their decision is their decision, and by entering the comp. you're putting yourself up for judging by them - and by spitting your dummy over their decisons, you're no better than someone who replys to negative crit. with the old chestnut "but the client liked them, so thats all that matters" If you're not prepared to accept the judges decision, then maybe entering the competition isn't for you... But, IMO you'd be missing out, because I know, the discpline of entering the competition with the best photo I could possibly take every month improved my technique noticeably, and, perhaps more importantly, improved my ability to "think about" my work to a huge degree.
 
I agree with all the above. I shall definitely be entering this year as I really enjoyed the challenge in 2014 and I think I learned quite a bit about shooting to a brief, such fun.

Andy
 
Right, I've had a pow-wow with my fellow moderators and I'm going to put something in place to minimise the risk of the "conversion" issue taking place and the plan is to judge the film entries in with the rest as per usual but they will also be ranked separately so that the film top 10 with receive points towards the film POTY.

Heading in the right direction?
 
Right, I've had a pow-wow with my fellow moderators and I'm going to put something in place to minimise the risk of the "conversion" issue taking place and the plan is to judge the film entries in with the rest as per usual but they will also be ranked separately so that the film top 10 with receive points towards the film POTY.

Heading in the right direction?
Most definitely :thumbs:
 
Looking good, better get out there with a camera!
 
Okay, I'm in. Got February, might have got December (don't ask) and I have ideas for January.
 
Sounds good. Best get on with the shooting then. (y)
 
Could be worse Ashley... I swore in 2012 that I was finished entering the POTY, but with the advent of the Staff POTY it looks like I'm pretty much unable to avoid starting again. Doubt there'll be much if anything on film from me over the year I'm afraid, after nearly 3 years of not shooting anything much, I'm so rusty I can barely get the digital stuff to work the way I want.

I'm also thoroughly dreading all the "open" rounds as I'm pretty much unable to come up with the slightest inspiration when confronted by a blank page.

At least there aren't any ludcrous "no PP" rules or any of that cobblers this year, and you lot will have the added fun of being able to vote on the Green Team's efforts...
 
Tried sending my entry last night and got this

"This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.
Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed.
poty@talkphotography.co.uk"

So im not sure if its been set up yet. You usually just get a delivery failure though if the recipient doesnt exist.
 
Tried sending my entry last night and got this

"This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.
Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed.
poty@talkphotography.co.uk"

So im not sure if its been set up yet. You usually just get a delivery failure though if the recipient doesnt exist.

Are you sending from a Hotmail account by any chance?
 
Could be worse Ashley... I swore in 2012 that I was finished entering the POTY, but with the advent of the Staff POTY it looks like I'm pretty much unable to avoid starting again. Doubt there'll be much if anything on film from me over the year I'm afraid, after nearly 3 years of not shooting anything much, I'm so rusty I can barely get the digital stuff to work the way I want.

I'm also thoroughly dreading all the "open" rounds as I'm pretty much unable to come up with the slightest inspiration when confronted by a blank page.

At least there aren't any ludcrous "no PP" rules or any of that cobblers this year, and you lot will have the added fun of being able to vote on the Green Team's efforts...


You could always use the "monthly" f&c challenges for inspiration troll the archive or pick the one that starts when you're thinking about the open round.
 
Sorry to be a dunce, but can I just ask how it works with film entries? I've read in this thread that film entries get additional points, but on the POTY rules and themes thread I can't see anything? Do these points get tallied separately from the main POTY points so that a film shot is ranked against all photos, and then against all film photos?

I'm so confused :(
 
i got it through using my OCA course gmail account, so i will stick with that each month, it will save mucking you about. thanks though.
 
Despite the new film-friendly rules, I'm contemplating not entering POTY15 this month. I've entered film shots for 24 straight months, and I feel if I keep going I'll rebuild the pressure I was feeling at the end of last year. Plus I don't think I've taken any shots that might be worth entering off their own merit (as opposed to place-markers), and have had no films process yet (one is on the shelf waiting for another to finish, and with the best will in the world I'm unlikely to do my first home processing run this month, since we're likely away next week). It's slightly annoying; I didn't do very well in the early part of last year when there were lots of non-film entries, but that aspect is fixed this year for filmies.

Nothing's certain until the first of Feb, but looking unlikely right now. :thinking::runaway:
 
I'll probably give it a go, rather enjoyed the challenge and I didn't feel under any pressure really.

Big congrats to Steve for winning the film section, he produced some stunning shots this year. I would have been a bit closer if two months entries hadn't disappeared but he won at a canter and deservedly so.:clap::clap::clap:

Andy
 
Absolutely, and many of Steve's shots were just fantastic. For me, his fashion shot was the leader of the pack, better than all the digi shots, and one that must have been harder on film (not being able to check the take when there's so much to go wrong). Congratulations Steve.
 
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