FILM Photographer of the Year 2018 - Thoughts and Ideas

So 4 themes from me

  1. Tradition(al)
  2. Garden
  3. Curve(s)
  4. Ruin
 
Carl Hall said:
Now that the end is in sight for the 2017 FPOTY competition, it’s probably about the right sort of time to start ironing out the details or changes for next year.

2017 Feedback
As this was the first time I’ve ever ran anything like this, everything was a bit of a stab in the dark and I pretty much learned on the job as it progressed. If you have any feedback or comments on how you think the year has been, what has gone well, what hasn’t gone well etc, then please post away so that I can improve for this year!

Organiser
I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do it again for a second year, but I think I’m happy to steer the ship again for 2018 if no one has any problems with it? If anyone would prefer to run it this year then now is the time to speak up and volunteer :)

The only two things that I’m going to insist on is a simple points system (because I’m thick) and that there is zero bending of the rules this year, including deadline extensions (because it causes more issues than it’s worth).
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I'm not sure anyone actually said this, Carl, but I reckon most would join me in saying you've done a great job, and thank you for all the work you have put in. If you ever need a reference as a project manager, let me know! (I know you are one... it shows.)

:ty:
:):):)
(y)(y)(y)
:film:

Themes
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So, on to the first item of business- the themes. I like Andy’s recent idea that we can all suggest 3 or 4 themes, which I’ll then put in a proverbial hat and pick out 12 at random. The issue with this is that I could suggest a really bizarre theme like “goats” and then it could get randomly selected to be a theme without being voted on. We could always suggest the themes and then vote on the long list, similar to this year.

This year the themes were randomly placed throughout the year based purely on a number given by a random number generator. I think this worked mostly, but there were a few that could have been better placed. I’m leaning towards a mostly random placement next year but with a manual placement for anything that’s seasonal, so we might get a tree theme in late autumn where it belongs!
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I like semi-random selection. Pull them out of a hat, but apply common sense in rejecting some with serious negative opinions, and in placing them within the year. The two open themes were very useful.

Points
I think this might be the biggest cause for complaint with the current system, so it needs a change. As I said, I want to keep this simple. I suggest simply awarding points down further from the top 5 that we have now. I opted to do top 5 last year as I didn’t have a clue how many people would enter! Now that we’re getting 15+ entrants, I think 12 points for 1st place working down to 1 point for 12th place.

Under the current system, 32% of people are on zero points, and the top four competitors have almost half of all points (47.6%, 144/302). If I retrospectively apply this pointing system to the 2017 competition for comparison, only three competitors are on zero points, and they have all entered 1 or 2 themes.

A simple pointing system of 12 down to 1 based on place is what I think would be best as it’s basic and easy to gauge how many points you need to move up the ladder, but obviously this is open to debate if you have a better way (as long as it’s simple!)
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After some thought and experimenting (see above) I really favour this simple system.

Votes
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This year we all got three votes to use to pick the best photos for the month. Sometimes this worked fine, but other times we ended up with a lot of people on the same points which ended with a lot of tied places. If we’re going to give points down to 12th place then we definitely need to give more votes to define the top 12. I’m thinking that we should have 1/3 of the number of entries as votes, rounded down. So for example if there are 12 entries then we get 4 votes, if there are 17 entries then we get 5, and if there are 19 then we get 6.
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Works for me!
Start Date
Rather than limiting each theme to photos taken that month, this year we allowed the photos to be taken at any time after December 26th when the themes were announced. I think this worked well for the most part as it gave people a lot longer to plan and take entries before the deadline. The only month where this suffered was January where we only had approx. 5 weeks. I propose that the themes are unveiled on 1st December 2017, and any photos taken after this date are eligible for FPOTY 2018. Obviously this turns it into a 13 month which isn’t ideal, but I think it needs to be done.
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I don't think it really turns it into a 13 month; there are still 12 themes and 12 entry months. It just recognises two of the realities of film shooting these days: shots on part films, and processing times (though the latter seem to have got better). Go with it, I say.

Prizes
We were lucky enough to be donated a prize to be given to first place in 2017 (which I still have stored away safely!). Currently we don’t have anything in place for 2018. I did think maybe we could have a (voluntary) whip round and get a couple quid from people, but that seemed like it would get messy as it might not be everyone’s cup of tea. Perhaps there are some unwanted gifts that someone would be willing to donate? I’m not sure what the views are here, so I think it needs some discussion.
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Tricky one this. The prize we have was passed on after being won and not wanted, IIRC. I wondered about something like a grab bag of film, but everyone's got such different gear. Currently I have no good ideas.

Actually what about a professional wet print of a negative of the winner's choice, to a decent size, if we could raise a bit of cash?

OTOH a prize isn't really encessary, it's the glory that counts. Not sure if the FPOTY winner will get a blue tag like @Andysnap has (@TheBigYin ?), but that's probably enough.

Time Frame
I want to iron out the major problems and suggested improvements, but I don’t want to go round in circles arguing everything to death lol. If we can get all the changes wrapped up by the 15th November, then the themes can be suggested by the 22nd, and picked/voted on ready to start on the 1st December.

So now that I’ve finished waffling on for so long, it’s time for your thoughts :)
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Timescale looks good to me, Carl, go for it!
 
I'm sure we could rustle up a couple of quid each for a nice print. We're all guilty of not printing enough so take that excuse away from the winner!

I liked the photo book idea from a few years ago just a shame it turned into such a stress for the organiser.
 
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Carl Hall said:
2017 Feedback As this was the first time I’ve ever ran anything like this, everything was a bit of a stab in the dark and I pretty much learned on the job as it progressed. If you have any feedback or comments on how you think the year has been, what has gone well, what hasn’t gone well etc, then please post away so that I can improve for this year!
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Brilliantly done Carl, like everybody else I really appreciate your hard work doing this, it's often a thankless task so I thank you :thumbs:
Carl Hall said:
Organiser I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do it again for a second year, but I think I’m happy to steer the ship again for 2018 if no one has any problems with it? If anyone would prefer to run it this year then now is the time to speak up and volunteer :)

The only two things that I’m going to insist on is a simple points system (because I’m thick) and that there is zero bending of the rules this year, including deadline extensions (because it causes more issues than it’s worth).
Click to expand...
We need an overly complex points system algorithm otherwise you might think this project management malarkey is too easy.

Carl Hall said:
Themes
So, on to the first item of business- the themes. I like Andy’s recent idea that we can all suggest 3 or 4 themes, which I’ll then put in a proverbial hat and pick out 12 at random. The issue with this is that I could suggest a really bizarre theme like “goats” and then it could get randomly selected to be a theme without being voted on. We could always suggest the themes and then vote on the long list, similar to this year.

This year the themes were randomly placed throughout the year based purely on a number given by a random number generator. I think this worked mostly, but there were a few that could have been better placed. I’m leaning towards a mostly random placement next year but with a manual placement for anything that’s seasonal, so we might get a tree theme in late autumn where it belongs!
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Obviously one of the problems of letting people suggest themes and then voting leaves it open to repetition of the old favourites. I do like the idea of getting away from the same old themes but appreciate that some might enjoy shooting within their comfort zone, I know I really struggled with the more esoteric themes in the main POTY competition a couple of years ago, goats on the other hand seems like a great theme :D
I appreciate that the "open" months give people the opportunity to use the F&C shoehorn with impunity but I still struggle to give equal consideration to shots as diverse as a macro, landscape and abstract, I find it practically impossible to judge.

Carl Hall said:
Points
I think this might be the biggest cause for complaint with the current system, so it needs a change. As I said, I want to keep this simple. I suggest simply awarding points down further from the top 5 that we have now. I opted to do top 5 last year as I didn’t have a clue how many people would enter! Now that we’re getting 15+ entrants, I think 12 points for 1st place working down to 1 point for 12th place.

Under the current system, 32% of people are on zero points, and the top four competitors have almost half of all points (47.6%, 144/302). If I retrospectively apply this pointing system to the 2017 competition for comparison, only three competitors are on zero points, and they have all entered 1 or 2 themes.

A simple pointing system of 12 down to 1 based on place is what I think would be best as it’s basic and easy to gauge how many points you need to move up the ladder, but obviously this is open to debate if you have a better way (as long as it’s simple!)
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Happy to go with the 12 point system if others are.

Carl Hall said:
Votes
This year we all got three votes to use to pick the best photos for the month. Sometimes this worked fine, but other times we ended up with a lot of people on the same points which ended with a lot of tied places. If we’re going to give points down to 12th place then we definitely need to give more votes to define the top 12. I’m thinking that we should have 1/3 of the number of entries as votes, rounded down. So for example if there are 12 entries then we get 4 votes, if there are 17 entries then we get 5, and if there are 19 then we get 6.
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If were going to have points down to 12th why not have the option of picking you top 12?

Carl Hall said:
Start Date
Rather than limiting each theme to photos taken that month, this year we allowed the photos to be taken at any time after December 26th when the themes were announced. I think this worked well for the most part as it gave people a lot longer to plan and take entries before the deadline. The only month where this suffered was January where we only had approx. 5 weeks. I propose that the themes are unveiled on 1st December 2017, and any photos taken after this date are eligible for FPOTY 2018. Obviously this turns it into a 13 month which isn’t ideal, but I think it needs to be done.
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Happy to allow shots taken after the announcement of the themes to be used, seems a sensible idea.

Carl Hall said:
Prizes
We were lucky enough to be donated a prize to be given to first place in 2017 (which I still have stored away safely!). Currently we don’t have anything in place for 2018. I did think maybe we could have a (voluntary) whip round and get a couple quid from people, but that seemed like it would get messy as it might not be everyone’s cup of tea. Perhaps there are some unwanted gifts that someone would be willing to donate? I’m not sure what the views are here, so I think it needs some discussion.
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Not fussed about prizes tbh but if the majority vote for something then a some sort of film related prize would be ok.

Carl Hall said:
Time Frame
I want to iron out the major problems and suggested improvements, but I don’t want to go round in circles arguing everything to death lol. If we can get all the changes wrapped up by the 15th November, then the themes can be suggested by the 22nd, and picked/voted on ready to start on the 1st December.
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Happy to go round in circles for a couple of months if others are but do think that we need to decide on a date when we can decide a timeframe to start considering when would be best time to agree a strategy for deciding when to agree to a time that suits us all.
 
RaglanSurf said:
Brilliantly done Carl, like everybody else I really appreciate your hard work doing this, it's often a thankless task so I thank you

...............



Happy to go round in circles for a couple of months if others are but do think that we need to decide on a date when we can decide a timeframe to start considering when would be best time to agree a strategy for deciding when to agree to a time that suits us all.
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1.) Only recently joined in but from organising other year long activities join with Nick's thanks.

2.) Last paragraph, Yes Sir Humphrey. [emoji2]
 
RaglanSurf said:
We need an overly complex points system algorithm otherwise you might think this project management malarkey is too easy.
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I thought that had been addressed in the last sentence of post #37? :D However, I definitely think that any overly complex algorithmic points system should be strongly weighted to favour those with forum pseudonyms and avatars that feature native British woodland creatures. (y)

As for a prize, to be honest, do we really need one? I think the title of FPOTY is enough, with the option to display this in the avatar/forum name box. Having a whip-round just burdens someone with the task of collecting the money, organising the prize, then getting it to the winner. The photo print is a nice idea, but not everyone would want this or have space (or the necessary permission from their spouse/partner!) to hang it on a wall.

If a prize is considered necessary or desirable, why don't we just make it a token one, such as 'The Golden Rocket Blower' (just a standard one referred to as that, rather than one actually converted to a trophy) or something like that? At least that would be useful and a nice little memento for the lucky (or skilful) winner. :)
 
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simon ess said:
I don't suppose anyone, such as my favourite chem and film supplier for example, would care to offer a small voucher or something, maybe.

@AgPhotographic

:naughty:

:film:
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Not sure how this would sit with the Forum Admin team, as it could be seen as sponsorship or advertising? Also, there's the issue of someone organising all this and, in the interest of fairness, contacting other companies to give them a fair shout at 'sponsorship' and advertising, and so it snowballs? More debating and discussion on whether to have prizes down to 3rd, or 4th, or 6th? In principle it sounds a good idea, but in reality it probably just adds another layer of mither for someone to try to coordinate! Probably best to just keep things simple and go for a single 'token' type prize if there's to be one at all?
 
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My 4 suggested themes (at least for the next 5 minutes) are:-

1. Goats! Of course :D

1. Pictures within pictures or frames within the frame (^^^^^like Mrs Snap has already posted^^^^^)
2. The decisive moment.
3. Negative space.
4. Natural light portrait.

I reserve the right to change these as often as possible until the deadline :D
 
We need a thirteenth month for goats I fear or a special prize for whoever can shoehorn a goat into as many of the 12 eventual categories as possible..


1. 1. Goats


1. Home
2. Postcards
3. Departed
4. Run
 
1. Bovidae....look it up.:D

Real 1. Big sky
2. Speed
3. Wheels
4. Faces
 
RaglanSurf said:
1. Pictures within pictures or frames within the frame (^^^^^like Mrs Snap has already posted^^^^^)
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Copycat!! :D

RaglanSurf said:
4. Natural light portrait
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Nooooo! There's only one person who would sit there and put up with my total portrait ineptitude and, let's face it, none of you would vote for a picture of him!! :LOL::whistle:;)
 
Mrs Snap said:
Copycat!! :D



Nooooo! There's only one person who would sit there and put up with my total portrait ineptitude and, let's face it, none of you would vote for a picture of him!! :LOL::whistle:;)
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Oy... People would pay to see pictures of my gorgeous face. :D
 
Mrs Snap said:
Nooooo! There's only one person who would sit there and put up with my total portrait ineptitude and, let's face it, none of you would vote for a picture of him!! :LOL::whistle:;)
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It doesn't have to be a portrait of a person, it could be a portrait of a family pet for instance... or a goat! :D

srichards said:
But you could also enter it into the Goats competition :)
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That might meet with a gruff response! :D Gruff - Billy-goats... Oh, please yerselves! :coat:

Joking aside, as a rule I dislike portraits (both taking and viewing - don't know why, think it's because I find a lot of them look rather contrived) so I think Room 101 would be the right place for that theme. :grumpy:
 
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Well, as a group we do seem to have an aversion to photographing people, which seems like a very good reason for including a people-related theme in the FPOTY! Getting us to do something we wouldn't normally is one of the big motivations for it, I think.
 
ChrisR said:
Well, as a group we do seem to have an aversion to photographing people, which seems like a very good reason for including a people-related theme in the FPOTY! Getting us to do something we wouldn't normally is one of the big motivations for it, I think.
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If so, and we can find a way to combine 'Portraits' with the 'Macro and close-up' theme, using only expensive and/or difficult to find specialist photographic accessories and equipment, by all accounts we'll all be able to enjoy a month off next year! :LOL:
 
H'mm this thread is a mess who is going to volunteer to sort it out :eek: Someone here posted a link for a list of ideas for themes..well couldn't we put that up and vote on it?
 
Or we could all put all the suggestions in our own hats pick out 12 then post them on here, collate them and pick the top 12 overall :D
 
RaglanSurf said:
Or we could all put all the suggestions in our own hats pick out 12 then post them on here, collate them and pick the top 12 overall :D
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Or draw our own twelve shoot them and only at the end of the year reveal what we were shooting towards, it would be very meta.
 
We’ve got around forty suggestions in this thread now. How about Carl does his hat thing, puts up the resulting list with a poll up for a few days asking if they’re acceptable, and if more than half the responses are positive, we go with those? Or, otherwise, we do the same as last time and have a poll for all the suggestions and pick the twelve most popular - a lot of the suggestions are more left-field than this year’s, so there should still be something to get our teeth into if we want a bit more of a challenge.
 
FishyFish said:
We’ve got around forty suggestions in this thread now. How about Carl does his hat thing, puts up the resulting list with a poll up for a few days asking if they’re acceptable, and if more than half the responses are positive, we go with those? Or, otherwise, we do the same as last time and have a poll for all the suggestions and pick the twelve most popular - a lot of the suggestions are more left-field than this year’s, so there should still be something to get our teeth into if we want a bit more of a challenge.
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..or keep the same as this year to see if we can improve on what we had submitted.
 
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Or just pick 12 at random and do them in the order they come out? Then pick another 12 for FPOTY 2019 so there is longer mulling time for that?
 
R Dean Taylor - There's a Goat In My House
 
Anything by Kid Creole and the Coconuts
 
The Beatles - Goat to get you into my life.
 
The Moody Blues If you've got to goat then you've got to goat now, goat now....
 
Hows about I create a poll with every suggestion on it, and then you can click to vote on as many as you want? If you're happy with them all except for 2 then vote for 38 out of 40 etc? That way we can weed out the REALLY weird themes with no votes that nobody wants, but then pick the random 12 from that list of pre-approved themes?

I am actually going to pull them out my my top hat now. I have no idea where it is since the house move, but it needs to be done. :D
 
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