Fill Flash

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raythefab

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Is there a standard setting for fill flash, i dont have a problem indoors but when i try using fill flash outdoors on a sunny day the subject is far too bright :'(
 
Expose for the background, get that right remembering to use flash sync speed, set to manual exposure and set the flash to the same aperture setting. May need -1EV on flash setting to make it look natural but experiment around that down to maybe -3EV.
 
I agree, I often use fill flash at -2.5 or -3 as I just want to lift the shadows not change the lighting. Highest I would usually go is -2.
 
imagine said:
Expose for the background, get that right remembering to use flash sync speed, set to manual exposure and set the flash to the same aperture setting. May need -1EV on flash setting to make it look natural but experiment around that down to maybe -3EV.
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Sorry i dont understand Can it be put a bit plainer im not used to flash:'(
 
raythefab said:
Sorry i dont understand Can it be put a bit plainer im not used to flash:'(
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Meter for the background/subject in manual mode, ensuring that the shutter speed is 1/200 or less and adjust the aperture to give you the exposure you require (you may need to adjust the ISO to keep the shutter speed within the range you require).

Next pop the flash up on the camera and adjust the flash exposure compensation to a -2 to -3 setting.

Take the picture! Then adjust the fill as required.

You have to bear in mind though that the lower the ISO, the lower the power of the flashgun, but if you take the ISO too high you will have a problem balancing the ambient exposure.
 
imagine said:
set the flash to the same aperture setting
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I don't understand this bit either. My flash doesn't have an aperture setting. :shrug:
 
68lbs said:
I don't understand this bit either. My flash doesn't have an aperture setting. :shrug:
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Just follow the steps in my reply above, and jobs a good un. :thumbs:

In your case you will of course stick your ETTL flash on the top rather than pop up the built in one! :p
 
EdBray said:
Just follow the steps in my reply above, and jobs a good un. :thumbs:

In your case you will of course stick your ETTL flash on the top rather than pop up the built in one! :p
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Ed i was talking about my 430ex not the camera flash:lol:
 
Stick someone in front of a window, expose for the outside and fill the shadows using the steps above. It's a case of trial and error to get the exact results you want!
 
EdBray said:
Stick someone in front of a window, expose for the outside and fill the shadows using the steps above. It's a case of trial and error to get the exact results you want!
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Thank you Ed will experiment cheers:thumbs:
 
At the risk of confusing things further, with the 430EX you can set it to use HSS (high speed sync) allowing faster shutter speeds to be used at the expense of reduced range.
 
EdBray said:
Just follow the steps in my reply above, and jobs a good un. :thumbs:
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That's what I do :) I was confused by the aperture comment and wondered if there was something on my flash I'd missed.

I've recently discovered (the op might not be aware) that with canon, exposure compensation doesn't affect flash so you could shoot in AV at -2ev, and the flash on ETTL will bring the exposure up (you can independently control the flash exposure +/- too).
 
68lbs said:
That's what I do :) I was confused by the aperture comment and wondered if there was something on my flash I'd missed.

I've recently discovered (the op might not be aware) that with canon, exposure compensation doesn't affect flash so you could shoot in AV at -2ev, and the flash on ETTL will bring the exposure up (you can independently control the flash exposure +/- too).
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but not to confuse things more, it's the 'flash exposure compensation +/-' you need to use to 'fill in' the shadows!
 
sorry if i am hijacking this thread but i am a newbie to slr's and i have been following this thread and been playing with my sony a330 and i now understand this exposure/fill in flash lark.i found the flash compesation in the menu under the p setting.thanks guys:thumbs:
 
Older flash units have aperture markings, as well as TTL and manual settings on the better ones, and a slide rule affair to give a guide as to the range you can expect for each setting.

With the flash in its auto-thyristor mode, the flash computes the required output, independently of the camera. This mode is still useful with current cameras that can use it, if their programmed TTL mode is overly sensitive to reflections, and quench the flash to preserve highlights. It's also useful with subjects who blink when a pre-flash system is used.

In the auto mode, you set the appropriate aperture on both flash and lens, and the sensor on the flash (if not obscured by e.g. a light modifier) measures the flash and cuts it off. If a narrower aperture is set on the lens than the flash, the sensor will receive less light than the flash deems necessary, and there's your fill ratio. For example, set ƒ/4 on the flash and ƒ/8 on the lens for a 2-stops difference. Set the shutter speed and ISO appropriate to the ambient light and sync speed. With a newer flash, set the system up for high speed sync (or FP - focal plane) in brighter conditions. Underexposing the sky will add drama, but isn't as subtle as well executed fill.
 
Here's the back of a Sunpak 444D
sunpak444d.gif

At the top is the bounce/swivel head with tilt angle markings.
Below is the slider for setting ISO, with readout window, below.
Then comes the F/stop and range slider, with the mode setting to the left, which sets one of three F/stops for the Auto mode, or the TTL or Manual modes.
Then comes the manual settings slider, with outputs between Full and 1/16th.
Finally, the power switch and status indicators.
 
raythefab said:
Is there a standard setting for fill flash, i dont have a problem indoors but when i try using fill flash outdoors on a sunny day the subject is far too bright :'(
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Yes, HSS enabled and camera on Av :)

If your fill flash works indoors, then it should work outdoors in exactly the same way. The only problem is that in bright light the exposure is likely to give you a shutter speed higher than 1/250sec (40D's max x-sync speed). With conventional flash this is problem, but High Speed Sync gets around this completely, and your Canon 430EX gun has this feature.

It works a treat. With HSS enabled and the camera set on Av, when the shutter speed required goes over 1/250sec, the flash automatically switches to HSS output and the job's a good un. Only drawback is that range is reduced, as the flash has to work very hard in this mode. It pours out a stream of flashes at very high strobe frequency to simulate continuous light for just enough time for the shutter to operate and capture it successfully. It looks just like normal flash - it's all too fast to see, same as the pre-flash which controls everything, it all goes off together like lightning.

The way most people work with fill flash is Av with E-TTL (although you can do it in any mode) which automatically balances the flash exposure with the ambient light. If the flash is too light/dark, adjust the exposure compensation on the gun - it will change the power output. If the ambient background exposure is too light/dark, adjust the compensation on the camera - it will change the shutter speed.

E-TTL works extremely well. The only thing that really foxes it is off-centre subjects shot close to camera which is what the FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) button is for. Check page 102 in the 40D handbook.
 
HoppyUK said:
Yes, HSS enabled and camera on Av :)

If your fill flash works indoors, then it should work outdoors in exactly the same way. The only problem is that in bright light the exposure is likely to give you a shutter speed higher than 1/250sec (40D's max x-sync speed). With conventional flash this is problem, but High Speed Sync gets around this completely, and your Canon 430EX gun has this feature.

It works a treat. With HSS enabled and the camera set on Av, when the shutter speed required goes over 1/250sec, the flash automatically switches to HSS output and the job's a good un. Only drawback is that range is reduced, as the flash has to work very hard in this mode. It pours out a stream of flashes at very high strobe frequency to simulate continuous light for just enough time for the shutter to operate and capture it successfully. It looks just like normal flash - it's all too fast to see, same as the pre-flash which controls everything, it all goes off together like lightning.

The way most people work with fill flash is Av with E-TTL (although you can do it in any mode) which automatically balances the flash exposure with the ambient light. If the flash is too light/dark, adjust the exposure compensation on the gun - it will change the power output. If the ambient background exposure is too light/dark, adjust the compensation on the camera - it will change the shutter speed.

E-TTL works extremely well. The only thing that really foxes it is off-centre subjects shot close to camera which is what the FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) button is for. Check page 102 in the 40D handbook.
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What he said. :clap:
 
Camera set to Manual set aperture for the desired effect. Point the camera at the sky dial in the shutter speed to -2/3rd's if you want a dramatic look to the sky.. set the flash to 1/8th and then adjust the power from there to give the desired effect. if it is a bright day and I need a wide aperture I use HSS.. that's what I do for outdoor portraits anyway...
 
onform said:
Camera set to Manual set aperture for the desired effect. Point the camera at the sky dial in the shutter speed to -2/3rd's if you want a dramatic look to the sky.. set the flash to 1/8th and then adjust the power from there to give the desired effect. if it is a bright day and I need a wide aperture I use HSS.. that's what I do for outdoor portraits anyway...
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excellent instruction there :thumbs:

what if I use a diffuser on the flash? or should I not for outdoor portraits?
 
Rozzy said:
excellent instruction there :thumbs:

what if I use a diffuser on the flash? or should I not for outdoor portraits?
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using a diffuser outdoors is not really necessary at all - if anything its just going to make your flash have to work harder and drain your battery's
 
using a diffuser outdoors is not really necessary at all - if anything its just going to make your flash have to work harder and drain your battery's
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Well it depends upon a lot of factors, but if your flash is close up, and you want to avoid sharp shadows, then a diffuser is a must.
 
richpips said:
Well it depends upon a lot of factors, but if your flash is close up, and you want to avoid sharp shadows, then a diffuser is a must.
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It depends more on the kind of diffuser than anything else.

Something like a Stofen, which works by spreading the light and bouncing it off ceiling and walls as well as sending light directly forwards, works really well indoors. But it's hopeless outside, as there is no ceiling etc for it to bounce off. And since it is so small itself, it doesn't increase the area of the light source to soften the light in any other way - all it does is waste light outside.

Fong/Lambency etc are physically bigger and while they lose most of their effect outside for the same reason, they do have a softening effect when used close up, even if they also waste most of the light.

Lumiquest-type diffusers which just take the flash source area and make it bigger and softer, with no contribution from ceiling/walls, work just was well outdoors. They are also efficient and don't waste light through unnecessary spill.
 
Something like a Stofen, which works by spreading the light and bouncing it off ceiling and walls as well as sending light directly forwards, works really well indoors. But it's hopeless outside, as there is no ceiling etc for it to bounce off.
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If you've got it pointed at the sky, yes. But pointed directly at the subject, no, it diffuses the light.
 
richpips said:
If you've got it pointed at the sky, yes. But pointed directly at the subject, no, it diffuses the light.
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Rich, Stofen diffuses the light but only works when that diffused light has something to bounce off. Outside it just disappears into nowhere and there is no contribution from the diffused light.

All that's left is the light going directly forwards from the little Stofen itself and since it is practically no larger than the bare flash head used on its own, the extra light source area is miniscule relative to the subject.

If you use a Stofen outdoors the only difference you will notice is the slight shift in the shadow position as a result of the elevated position of the flash head, if you angle it upwards at 45degs, as Stofen generally recommends.
 
HoppyUK said:
Rich, Stofen diffuses the light but only works when that diffused light has something to bounce off. Outside it just disappears into nowhere and there is no contribution from the diffused light.

All that's left is the light going directly forwards from the little Stofen itself and since it is practically no larger than the bare flash head used on its own, the extra light source area is miniscule relative to the subject.

If you use a Stofen outdoors the only difference you will notice is the slight shift in the shadow position as a result of the elevated position of the flash head, if you angle it upwards at 45degs, as Stofen generally recommends.
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I've used the Stofen outside, and whilst I agree a lot of the flash is wasted. Still it provides a softer fill light than using a bare head.
 
richpips said:
I've used the Stofen outside, and whilst I agree a lot of the flash is wasted. Still it provides a softer fill light than using a bare head.
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Really Rich, it doesn't. Try an A vs B comparison.

The position of the shadows changes slightly, according to the elevation of the flash head, but there's no difference to the hardness of the shadows.

Unless the effective surface area of the flash changes, it's not possible.
 
Watching the news, anytime there is a press scrum outside No. 10 or elsewhere outdoors, the press photographers always seem to be using Stofen lookalikes.
 
imagine said:
Watching the news, anytime there is a press scrum outside No. 10 or elsewhere outdoors, the press photographers always seem to be using Stofen lookalikes.
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They do. I recently had my picture taken by a guy freelancing for the national press (don't ask) outside with a Stofen. I asked him why. He said he always used it and although it didn't seem to make any difference outside, it couldn't do any harm so he left it on.

I think Stofens are permanently glued to press photographers' flash guns. I guess there is always the chance that there might be some reflective surface around for the flash to bounce off, a wall or a door maybe, that would add a little bit of fill. So if you have enough flash power and battery power, you might as well leave it fitted.
 
As Hoppy says it's all about the size of the light source. The sto-fen does nothing to increase the size of the light. I have a 24" Lastolite Ezybox - now that provides a nice soft diffused light :)

I have a fong & a stofen too but actually don't use either any longer. I find the white card in my flash useful though. Can throw enough light forward to create a nice catchlight.
 
EOS_JD said:
As Hoppy says it's all about the size of the light source. The sto-fen does nothing to increase the size of the light. I have a 24" Lastolite Ezybox - now that provides a nice soft diffused light :)

I have a fong & a stofen too but actually don't use either any longer. I find the white card in my flash useful though. Can throw enough light forward to create a nice catchlight.
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But using the stofen on your flash when using the Ezybox will improve the balance of light within the softbox!
 
EdBray said:
But using the stofen on your flash when using the Ezybox will improve the balance of light within the softbox!
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Yeah, that works. Ezyboxes have a double diffuser layer that really evens out the light with no hot spots but if that option isn't available with some softboxes, fitting a Stofen or similar does pretty much the same thing.
 
EdBray said:
But using the stofen on your flash when using the Ezybox will improve the balance of light within the softbox!
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Yes you are probably right! I have seen people do that - just never got round to it :) Using it does reduce the power a little too but generally I don't need full power - thanks for reminding me :)

By the way mine does have the double diffusion panel. I'll try it and see.
 
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