fill flash in sunlight

[Phil V]

I don't understand why people have a problem with somebody owning a top camera and using how they want to. If I had the spare cash I'd buy a top of the range camera but I can't afford it. Doesn't mean I'd be the best photographer, I just like to own the best I can afford.

Do the people who have questioned the OPs camera choice also question everybody who owns a car they have no idea how to use to its limitations, such as most BMWs, Mercs, etc?

Or anything else in life where you want to pay a bit more for something you really want because you can.

Me too! there's been a few of these lately

From my point of view, I don't care if he's using a D3200 or D800, leaving it to the gear will leave him ultimately frustrated.

 

[merv]

Phil I have to agree with your general point that it is desirable to be able to understand features and procedures from first principles and I think few would disagree with that. However, I am flattered to have been thrust into an exposed position without having had time to come to grips with first principles so I have to leave a lot to the camera to get me over the present hurdle and do a reasonable job. At least I have good gear instead of spending my dosh on booze, fags, gambling etc. Hence my simple original question as to best settings to place my camera in to get the best results I can. Thanks

 

[Phil V]

Phil I have to agree with your general point that it is desirable to be able to understand features and procedures from first principles and I think few would disagree with that. However, I am flattered to have been thrust into an exposed position without having had time to come to grips with first principles so I have to leave a lot to the camera to get me over the present hurdle and do a reasonable job. At least I have good gear instead of spending my dosh on booze, fags, gambling etc. Hence my simple original question as to best settings to place my camera in to get the best results I can. Thanks

I'm not knocking you for the gear (I'm not even impressed, it's all Noink)

 

[sk66]

Well, you can always set your camera up "like a professional" as suggested by Gary Fong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBf3KCBvVRQ


Personally, I find that video ludicrous.

 

[sk66]

To clarify/simplify my previous post(s), and to be as "helpful" as I can; here's how I would be set up n your situation.

On the D4 enable auto FP (flash sync speed) and set EC adjustments to "background only."
Set the flash to TTL FP BL. Use the flash bounced or into a large bounce panel (flashbender).
Set the camera to manual with auto ISO. Metering to matrix or CW...

With it set this way:
Set aperture for sharpness/DOF, Set SS for subject motion/handholding, ISO follows. Flash "balances" with ambient. If ambient is off set EC, if fill is off set FEC.

Alternatively (and for most other Nikons), do not set EC to "BG only." if the fill RATIO is off set FEC. Then use EC to adjust both the fill and ambient together.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I just don't get fill flash in bright sunlight, in theory it makes perfect sense to me - but then my camera exposes for the light that huge ball of flame in the sky produces.... and funny enough I have to use a shutter speed that is well faster than 1/200. So then I can't use flash.

How do people get round this?

The SB800 allows TTL FP modes, which allow flash sync to much faster shutter speeds... plus.. even without it, it's easy enough... just stop down.

I was testing a new Pocket Wizard system the other day actually and grabbed this. Crap image, I know... but it proves a point.

ISO100, 1/250th f16. That's with the sun blaring right into the frame too, so just taking group portraits on a sunny day shouldn't present a flash sync problem. I'm actually overpowering sunlight here in this shot... fill flash isn't even meant to be the main exposure... just a bit of fill... so even if it's 2 stops under the ambient, it will still be doing that job.

If you do run out of shutter speed headroom... ND filters can be your friend.

 

[sk66]

fill flash isn't even meant to be the main exposure... just a bit of fill... so even if it's 2 stops under the ambient, it will still be doing that job.

When "overpowering the sun" the flash *is* the main light for the subject. 2 stops under would be "bad" IMO. But probably better than putting the BG 2 stops over if you want to keep it.

 

[merv]

Guys thanks for all that, I'm thoroughly depressed now reading all that. Back to school.

 

[Pookeyhead]

When "overpowering the sun" the flash *is* the main light for the subject. 2 stops under would be "bad" IMO. But probably better than putting the BG 2 stops over if you want to keep it.

The point of my post really, is that if I can shoot at 1/250th directly into the sun, and still under expose the scene with 1/250th, then just taking normal group portraits on a sunny day shouldn't pose any problem.

 

[sk66]

The point of my post really, is that if I can shoot at 1/250th directly into the sun, and still under expose the scene with 1/250th, then just taking normal group portraits on a sunny day shouldn't pose any problem.

TBH, 1/250th wasn't the biggest factor in underexposing the BG, f/16 and ISO100 were. X-sync is 1/200, pretty close to 1/250. 1/250 is the "high x-sync" and not really into FP(HSS) ranges. I always set mine to "auto FP" and don't worry about it.

The fact the flash had enough power with those settings *is* relevant, but the biggest factor there was the subject distance. It doesn't directly translate to shooting a larger group from further away.

The "problem" with using FP (HSS) is that it eats flash power in a hurry. That could be particularly problematic shooting groups from longer distances.

But yes, I agree that basic fill flash for smaller group portraits shouldn't be a problem.

 

[sk66]

Guys thanks for all that, I'm thoroughly depressed now reading all that. Back to school.

If my "helpful post" was completely over your head, then you are probably in way too deep. Everything I said is specifically directed to using the D4 with the SB800 on camera with TTL/auto ISO...it doesn't get much more basic.

If you still plan on doing the shoot then my best recommendation is to follow Gary's recommendations in the video (but don't use Jpeg). And then don't put yourself in this position again until you are a bit more prepared.

 

[Phil V]

Merv,

GET OUT!!


Since you posted this question, you've had 3 afternoons to go out and practice. You'd find how easy it is rather than sitting in front of your computer fretting.

Grab a partner, child, colleague, neighbour, cat, dog or stranger in the street and knock off 20 shots, you'll learn more from that than sitting reading my drivel.

 

[HoppyUK]

Guys thanks for all that, I'm thoroughly depressed now reading all that. Back to school.

Don't blame you Merv. First you get dissed for having a nice camera (I have a fast car, doesn't make me a racing driver) and then told you're in over your head with a bunch of answers that, pretty much by definition, you're not going to fully grasp.

A good understanding of using flash and how light works is not the work of five minutes, but you want to do a decent job and have done the sensible thing and asked for advice. I'm assuming all you want is some nice bright/sharp/colourful record shots and are not planning an award-winning wedding portfolio.

So, take all the advice on board and make of it what you can. But if this shoot is coming up soon, my advice is to simply put the camera on P, flash to FP-sync with BL control enabled that will tone it down nicely. That's what it's for. Give it a go now.

The beauty of that method is the camera won't let you make any mistakes with x-sync or excessive flash exposure and you will always get something usable. One of the benefits of low-level fill-in flash is that it's automatically self-moderating: if the shot doesn't need shadows lifting, then the flash will be barely visible, if at all. On the other hand, when there are shadows that need brightening, the flash will do that without affecting the well exposed areas.

I've used similar settings on my Canon often enough and the automation is a godsend, and reliable. Flash is very sensitive to distance and in fluid social situations there is often just no time to fiddle with settings, even if you know exactly what's needed. And why bother, when the camera will do it all for you?

 

[Pookeyhead]

TBH, 1/250th wasn't the biggest factor in underexposing the BG, f/16 and ISO100 were.

I know... I was however, responding to someone who thought it was.

The fact is, it's not a massive problem.

 

[merv]

Thanks Martin for the suggestion will follow up.
Anyone know anything about Active D Lighting or maybe I should start another thread?!
merv

 

[merv]

Thanks Hoppy its a pleasure contributing to TP with understanding and respectful responders like you, and most others, about. There's always the risk of a bad apple in every barrel. Time I think to close this thread while I go and have a little practice. It is said, after all, that we learn by our mistakes and I'll find out shortly!

 

[Phil V]

... Time I think to close this thread while I go and have a little practice. It is said, after all, that we learn by our mistakes and I'll find out shortly!

Now if only someone had helpfully suggested that as an answer instead of being obstructive.











You're welcome

 

[On the Huh]

Thanks Hoppy its a pleasure contributing to TP with understanding and respectful responders like you, and most others, about. There's always the risk of a bad apple in every barrel. Time I think to close this thread while I go and have a little practice. It is said, after all, that we learn by our mistakes and I'll find out shortly!

You almost sound ungrateful to others that gave you advice.

Maybe I and others should not bother next time.

Good luck to you pal and goodbye from me.

 

[merv]

Thanks all for bothering to help one less fortunate and experienced than yourselves. Bye and out

 

[Garry Edwards]

Merv,

GET OUT!!


Since you posted this question, you've had 3 afternoons to go out and practice. You'd find how easy it is rather than sitting in front of your computer fretting.

Grab a partner, child, colleague, neighbour, cat, dog or stranger in the street and knock off 20 shots, you'll learn more from that than sitting reading my drivel.

As above.

"Excuse me, can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?"
"Just practice"

Whether you go the knowledge route or the technology route, you need to practice as much as you can. You will then have a pretty good idea of what to expect when you actually do these shots, and can then adjust to taste.

Technology will help you to get consistent results without knowledge. Knowledge will help you to get consistent results when the technology doesn't work.
Combining the two can produce outstanding results

 

[merv]

Job done and all worked out well. Thanks all for help - even those that got impatient with me!

 

[On the Huh]

or fed up with ya!