fill flash in sunlight

merv

merv

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I have been assigned a group of people to follow for a day this month, probably frequently outside in good light and feel that I should have my flash on. I have a Nikon D4 and dedicated Nikon Speedlight 800. Would this be a wise precautions to prevent underexposed faces etc and should I place the camera in 'P' mode. How do I set the camera and/or the flash to fire all the time? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, merv:clap:
 
Set flash to manual 1/4 1/2 power, whatever is needed depending on light conditions and distance from subject
practice bouncing the flash for a nicer light
A little fill flash can make all the difference
 
Flash isn't a panacea.

Light is important and you need to read it, position yourself around your subjects so that they're well lit naturally. Open shade during the brighter parts of the day and use the low sun to your advantage at other times.

But bear in mind what 'look' you're going for too. If you're looking for sharp and corporate, romantic backlight and lens flare won't do it, likewise if you're after soft and romantic, then crisp and bright might make it difficult.

Use fill flash for when it's necessary but be aware that it can look slightly unnatural. Use - FEC to stop it looking over flashed.
 
I just don't get fill flash in bright sunlight, in theory it makes perfect sense to me - but then my camera exposes for the light that huge ball of flame in the sky produces.... and funny enough I have to use a shutter speed that is well faster than 1/200. So then I can't use flash.

How do people get round this?
 
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Gypsy_Biker said:
I just don't get fill flash in bright sunlight, in theory it makes perfect sense to me - but then my camera exposes for the light that huge ball of flame in the sky produces.... and funny enough I have to use a shutter speed that is well faster than 1/200. So then I can't use flash.

How do people get round this?
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You could use Hss! (Hi Speed Sync) You will use a lot more battery power but that's how you get around it.

OP: I set camera on AV, Flash on ETTL and dial down a smidge in FEC (Flash exposure compensation). A little practice / trial and error for a few mins and your're good to go.
 
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Don't be afraid - chuck it into manual and expose for the background, fire the flash at the subject and use exposure comp for the rest. Letting the camera do it is no fun at all!
 
Thanks guys. Was doing a bit of reading and Auto area focus mode with face recognition is suggested along with Active D lighting, both features of the D4, for these conditions. Getting too complicated?
merv:bang:
 
You have A £3.5+K camera and you are asking questions in Talk Basics?:thinking:

I must live on another planet. :lol:

EDIT: OK not talk basics, but you get what I mean I hope.
 
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On the Huh said:
You have A £3.5+K camera and you are asking questions in Talk Basics?:thinking:

I must live on another planet. :lol:

EDIT: OK not talk basics, but you get what I mean I hope.
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something similar crossed my mind, but hey, who am I to say
I'd buy one just to prove I'm hopeless with top end cameras too-if I could afford it :lol:
 
anyone who is too proud to admit that they don't know it all despite owning a top camera should be forcibly banished to the same planet to join you. Flash is a complex subject, now have you anything sensible to say?:lol::wave:
 
Sorry, no offence, but it does reak a bit of all the gear.... you know the rest.

To be fair I have given you my advice, and I agree flash is not the easiest thing to master. Good lluck!
 
merv said:
Thanks guys. Was doing a bit of reading and Auto area focus mode with face recognition is suggested along with Active D lighting, both features of the D4, for these conditions. Getting too complicated?
merv:bang:
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A D3200 in green box mode will do the same thing:thumbs:. Not too complicated - too simple:nuts:

Seriously; do you want to know how to use the stuff or will just allowing the camera to take your pictures be good enough?:shrug:

On creative live now, there's hours of speedlight training from some masters of the craft. If you haven't got time to learn how to do it properly, no amount of learning your camera features will make your photography better.

I'm not mocking - we all have to learn, I spend hours here learning, and a small amount of time passing my little bit of knowledge on. What frustrates me, is that people thinking that buying the best gear and applying some settings will get them good photo's. It never did and no matter how good cameras get, it never will. The technology is there to help us 'create' the image we're aiming for.
There's a blog post I wrote to show the difference between a GWC and a photographer, it has some mixed flash examples. It might make something click, seeing as my first post failed :shrug:.
 
Hi, I usually set things up manually. If it's very bright ie sun etc you'll need to set a low ISO around a 100 should do, set your shutter speed to maximum flash sync speed (nothing faster) and then set your aperture to the value that will give you a properly exposed ambient light shot. If the light is still too bright for the shutter speed/aperture combination then you will need to use a ND filter on your lens.

For fill flash in "Harsh Sunlight" set your flash around minus 1-1.5 stops compensation.

For fill flash in less "Harsh Sunlight" set your flash around minus 2 stops compensation.

For fill flash in lower contrast lighting set your flash to minus 2.5-3 stops compensation.

These are only guide figures that I work from to try and help you, other togs will no doubt use slightly different settings to their own taste.

You can of course use an automatic mode if you really want to and if using an SB800 flash either on the hot shoe or with a dedicated lead then it will not allow you to set a too higher shutter speed. All you need to do then is set the minus compensation settings on your flash gun. Hope this helps.:thumbs:
 
merv said:
anyone who is too proud to admit that they don't know it all despite owning a top camera should be forcibly banished to the same planet to join you. Flash is a complex subject, now have you anything sensible to say?:lol::wave:
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I'm sorry but I have to agree, you have a £3-4K camera and top speedlight and your suggesting putting it in "P" mode. :nono:
 
richardhurst said:
I'm sorry but I have to agree, you have a £3-4K camera and top speedlight and your suggesting putting it in "P" mode. :nono:
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What's wrong with having an expensive camera, no matter how knowledgeable you are? The P mode on a Nikon D4 is the same as the P mode on an entry level camera and is rather more useful and versatile than some people think.

Merv seems to have a good attitude to learning, asks questions, and takes note of the answers. He just does it with some good quality gear. Good luck to him I say.
 
HoppyUK said:
What's wrong with having an expensive camera, no matter how knowledgeable you are? The P mode on a Nikon D4 is the same as the P mode on an entry level camera and is rather more useful and versatile than some people think.

Merv seems to have a good attitude to learning, asks questions, and takes note of the answers. He just does it with some good quality gear. Good luck to him I say.
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Hi, I agree all the modes on a camera are there to be used just however you think fit. The value of the equipment doesn't come into it.
Because I or anybody else works in a different way doesn't make it right or wrong, it just means it's right for us. Power to your elbow Merv.:thumbs:
 
Thanks guys for the diversity of views. Thanks also Hoppy for 'riding to the rescue' I am relatively inexperienced and do voluntary work for the National Trust. I am priviledged to be asked to shadow 80 benefactors from England on a visit to Northern Ireland and the least I can do is to ask a few questions about flash that I'm not sure about. I rarely use flash as mostly work outdoors on landscapes, bikes, cars and planes and generally don't need it. Hence the gaps in my knowledge. Up to now I have found TP contributors very sympathetic towards those of us who are less experienced but I must admit that after this thread I am a little more wary about asking 'stupid questions' especially as I have some top equipment. Is the green eyed monster lurking here?
Anyway by my own enquiries and from your advices I think I will have the courage of my convictions and operate in P mode with the SB800, with auto area focus face recognition mode and Active D lighting. If I'm wrong I'll be on here to admit it and eat humble pie. Hope I do my guests justice. Thanks All.:clap:
 
Don't take offence. It is quite unusual afterall to ask questions like yours when you have some top pro gear like that IMHO. And yes I am jealous if that mkes you feel better.
As I said earlier good luck, and do practice with a few different suggestions you have been given too. See wht works best for ya.
 
I'll presume that the photos you take of cars bikes planes and landscapes are good, that you are considered in your approach and that considering the quality and direction of light is part of your workflow.

All I suggested was that the same care needs to be taken when using flash. As you have a D4 I'm guessing that there isn't a landscape mode? You'll be considering what you're exposing for when you shoot, the same care should be taken shooting people, the difference is that you have the option of supplementing the available light with flash. Rather than just switching on the flash and hoping the camera will work out the rest, consider your lighting options.
 
merv said:
I have been assigned a group of people to follow for a day this month, probably frequently outside in good light and feel that I should have my flash on. I have a Nikon D4 and dedicated Nikon Speedlight 800. Would this be a wise precautions to prevent underexposed faces etc and should I place the camera in 'P' mode. How do I set the camera and/or the flash to fire all the time? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, merv:clap:
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On camera fill flash needs to be turned way down using -FEC. Off camera is better, but the D4 doesn't have a built in flash/commander mode (and it should still be set below ambient generally). You could get a SU800 to act as a commander, or get another SB and use the 800 as a commander (or remote triggers like PW's).

The D4 has the ability to separate EC away from the flash, but by default camera EC affects both the ambient and flash exposures. In A mode the D4 will use minimum ISO and whatever SS ignoring any minimum SS setting...this is annoying. To get around this use manual mode or S mode. To use a high SS synced with flash you have to enable "auto FP" (HSS) in the menu's and on the flash if it's remote. Also, if you are shooting backlit, then you should put the flash into BL mode...mine are always in BL mode with auto FP enabled.

If using the flash on camera I would suggest using the diffusion dome and a large bounce panel (i.e. rogue flashbender) if otherwise unable to bounce the flash.
 
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sk66 said:
On camera fill flash needs to be turned way down using -FEC. Off camera is better, but the D4 doesn't have a built in flash/commander mode (and it should still be set below ambient generally). You could get a SU800 to act as a commander, or get another SB and use the 800 as a commander (or remote triggers like PW's).

The D4 has the ability to separate EC away from the flash, but by default camera EC affects both the ambient and flash exposures. In A mode the D4 will use minimum ISO and whatever SS ignoring any minimum SS setting...this is annoying. To get around this use manual mode or S mode. To use a high SS synced with flash you have to enable "auto FP" (HSS) in the menu's and on the flash if it's remote. Also, if you are shooting backlit, then you should put the flash into BL mode...mine are always in BL mode with auto FP enabled.

If using the flash on camera I would suggest using the diffusion dome and a large bounce panel (i.e. rogue flashbender) if otherwise unable to bounce the flash.
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Not sure the OP will understnd all that tbh. ? As a Canon user not surre I do!:lol:
 
sk66 said:
On camera fill flash needs to be turned way down using -FEC.
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That's pretty much what the "BL" setting on the speedlights does. It aims to balance the ambient light which should avid the need to use flash exposure comp.

Really, fill flash on a D4
1. enable high speed sync
2. stick flashgun on camera
3. Enable TTL-BL
4. Shoot in your preferred mode

That's assuming it's the same as the other Nikons I have. I'm not rich enough to have a D4 ;)
 
I think about it in this way using all manual settings.

Start off by knowing what the constraints are. In this case, it's the shutter speed. Assuming 1/250 is the fastest you can use with flash, the next thing to set is the aperture.

At ISO 100 with a bright sunny day, the aperture will be about f11 (bright cloudy day f8).

Now you just need to set the flash power. Assuming you want it two stops below the level where the flash was supplying all the light, set it up for f5.6 at ISO 100 (or f4 for the bright cloudy day).

That's it - nothing more to set.


Steve.
 
JonathanRyan said:
That's pretty much what the "BL" setting on the speedlights does. It aims to balance the ambient light which should avid the need to use flash exposure comp.
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It does, but with the flash on camera I find that "balanced" is still too hot and it needs set below wit a little -FEC.
It's also of note that BL is very dependent on metering mode and is disabled with spot metering.
 
A few thoughts:

I tend to find less-is-more when it comes to on-camera fill flash in sunlight. I'm usually just trying to lift the shadows in the face a bit, with the flash contributing only a small amount to the overall exposure, to keep it looking nice and natural. So I tend to shoot with lots of negative FEC (often a good 2 stops), with a 1/4 CTO gel on the front so the color matches sunlight a bit better. The only common exception is heavily back lit scenes where I tend to need more power to properly expose the subject.

I often prefer to use FEC rather than manual power as I tend to shoot more dynamic situations (eg kids birthday party) and I don't have time to fiddle the settings all the time, but I know this is a less consistent way, and sometimes the camera gets the exposure way off, so be prepared for that.

And I find my final images benefit from fill flash in bright/harsh sunlight conditions, but otherwise not so much. Mainly because whenever you light someone with a point light source (eg a speedlight) you get those trademark harsh specular highlights on the face (to differing degrees of severity depending on the relative strength of the flash), which I find undesirable. I can achieve a similar result by using the local adjustment brush in Lightroom to bring up the shadows in the face (albeit at a cost of additional processing time), and this way avoids any unnatural flash related highlights.

On the flip side though, it's often nice to have a small catch light in the eyes, so adding a tiny bit of flash into the scene can make people sparkle a bit more.
 
Xenon54 said:
Mainly because whenever you light someone with a point light source (eg a speedlight) you get those trademark harsh specular highlights on the face
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That's what diffuisers and bounce cards are for.


Steve.
 
I found a book "the speed lighters handbook" a good resource for speed lighting in general. It is based around canon speed lights but being a Nikon D800 shooter myself I found 95% of it transferable to any system. It covers many different scenarios and lighting conditions. I agree with those that say lighting is not an exact science and is about reading the light which is available but this book should give you some grounding on the technicalities of speed lighting which you can take into the field to experiment with. It may be that you get what you need from some of the advice above but it was just another option that hadn't been covered.
 
the_local_jacko said:
I found a book "the speed lighters handbook" a good resource for speed lighting in general. It is based around canon speed lights but being a Nikon D800 shooter myself I found 95% of it transferable to any system. It covers many different scenarios and lighting conditions. I agree with those that say lighting is not an exact science and is about reading the light which is available but this book should give you some grounding on the technicalities of speed lighting which you can take into the field to experiment with. It may be that you get what you need from some of the advice above but it was just another option that hadn't been covered.
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Excellent book, by Syl Arena :thumbs:
 
Really all I want to achieve is ensure that the group I am following don't all have shady faces in my photos and that is the only reason I was trying to come to grips with flash. As someone said, I can use no flash and if faces are dark just bring up the shadow detail post processing in shadows and highlights. Certainly with the D4 high ISO capability i dont need to worry about poor lighting conditions in general. Just use auto ISO.
 
I certainly had a similar problem (albeit with a compact camera - G12). Background and body of the person all beautifully exposed and then had the dark circles/panda eyes effect because of the angle of the sun. It was a difficult area - no real nearby shade (in hindsight there was a tree I could have used). In that instance, the onboard flash was woefully inadequate and I hadn't thought to bring my speedlite with me.
 
Were you able to recover anything in post processing?
 
Yeah thankfully I shot in raw. Used lightroom to recover the detail. Still had shadows under the eyes but at least you could see the eyes now. Better than looking like she was wearing sunglasses.

It was around midday so in hindsight perhaps angling the face up would have helped. I really wished I'd taken my flash because it was probably the best pic of the whole holiday and I could have given the girl a framed version.

One day I might process that photo in photoshop and email it to her.
 
Do as I /J Ryan said
Choose mode I always use A so I can controll DOF
enable ETTL BL
enable HSS it will inly use it if SS are not synced
As someone said use Evalutive ?Matrix ? metereing to enable BL (Sorry Canon user)

If Flash is too harsh use - FEC

Don't worry about difusers etc too much for outside work like this
 
merv said:
Certainly with the D4 high ISO capability i dont need to worry about poor lighting conditions in general. Just use auto ISO.
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Uhm, no. The worse the lighting is the worse the high ISO performance will be. And bringing up shadows in post is not ideal...I'd give that about 1-2 stops max (less the higher the ISO is set).

Fill flash will be better if you learn to use it well...and using lighting really is one of those "essential skills" IMO.
 
I still worry the OP is trying to use the camera 'tools' to deal with this rather than grasping the nettle.

His photography won't improve until he understands how light is working and how to manipulate what he's dealing with.

Phrases like 'just leave it to the BL' and 'high ISO setting are fine so I'll just use Auto ISO' just leave me despairing.

Without understanding you can't improve, you're leaving the auto modes of the camera as something to blame when you don't get the results you want. Without understanding, you'll still be shooting the same mistakes in 10 years time, how is that a fulfilling hobby?
 
Phil V said:
Phrases like 'just leave it to the BL' and 'high ISO setting are fine so I'll just use Auto ISO' just leave me despairing.

Without understanding you can't improve, you're leaving the auto modes of the camera as something to blame when you don't get the results you want. Without understanding, you'll still be shooting the same mistakes in 10 years time, how is that a fulfilling hobby?
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Maybe so.

But some very clever people in Japan have spent a long time with their slide rules working out BL mode. For 90% of stuff it really does work nicely (for me anyway). Why not use the tools you have?
 
I don't understand why people have a problem with somebody owning a top camera and using how they want to. If I had the spare cash I'd buy a top of the range camera but I can't afford it. Doesn't mean I'd be the best photographer, I just like to own the best I can afford.

Do the people who have questioned the OPs camera choice also question everybody who owns a car they have no idea how to use to its limitations, such as most BMWs, Mercs, etc?

Or anything else in life where you want to pay a bit more for something you really want because you can.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Maybe so.

But some very clever people in Japan have spent a long time with their slide rules working out BL mode. For 90% of stuff it really does work nicely (for me anyway). Why not use the tools you have?
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Jonathan
With the utmost respect, you know when just fill flash will get you the shot and when to intervene on subject positioning etc (better than most here I'd imagine). That's more my point, it's the thought process rather than the tools, which no matter how good they are, need a level of understanding of their limitations. If the camera 'just did it' for us, we'd all be out of a job.
 
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