Fgm

Initial visual examination can spot mutilation without the need of in-depth prodding about
 
archangel said:
Initial visual examination can spot mutilation without the need of in-depth prodding about
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No first glance standing exam can tell any such thing.
 
viv1969 said:
No first glance standing exam can tell any such thing.
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Try googling fgm and click images......I think it is pretty obvious that there has been some sort of mutilation......and no need for stirrups or in depth exam examination
 
archangel said:
Try googling fgm and click images......I think it is pretty obvious that there has been some sort of mutilation......and no need for stirrups or in depth exam examination
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I don't need to.
I simply think that any such kind of intimate exam in a school setting is inappropriate.
 
viv1969 said:
I don't need to.
I simply think that any such kind of intimate exam in a school setting is inappropriate.
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I don't think it is in appropriate if it helps protect a child......ideally if we could catch the perpetrators before the act, life would be so much better......
 
archangel said:
I don't think it is in appropriate if it helps protect a child......ideally if we could catch the perpetrators before the act, life would be so much better......
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If only we lived in such an ideal world.
Shall we also examine for rape? Other sexual abuse? Where should a line be drawn?
 
viv1969 said:
If only we lived in such an ideal world.
Shall we also examine for rape? Other sexual abuse? Where should a line be drawn?
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I think all kids and vulnerable people should be screened for all abuse where possible...why not! If it makes society a better place...... too many crimes go unnoticed and too many people get away with abuse...... Time we stood up for the rights of the decent human and protect those who are at risk.....after all we live in a free world .......apparently!
 
viv1969 said:
If only we lived in such an ideal world.
Shall we also examine for rape? Other sexual abuse? Where should a line be drawn?
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How on earth can you examine for rape? Ok, I guess you could on a young child/baby but that would be a very invasive exam on something that thankfully does not happen very often, whereas we are talking about an offense that affect quite a few girls in certain areas of society. But of course, if one suggests someting aimed a particular religion or race then its obviously racist.
 
Surely spotting the damage after isn't really the point. Surely preventing it happening in the first place should be the goal, and any sort of physical examination isn't going to help that. Infact its a bit like sticking an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather then a fence at the top. It'll maybe traumatise the victims further. Which isn't saying that people who have had this done don't need help but I really don't think a forced exam in school is what they need
 
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boyfalldown said:
Surely spotting the damage after isn't really the point. Surely preventing it happening in the first place should be the goal, and any sort of physical examination isn't going to help that. Infact its a bit like sticking an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather then a fence at the top. It'll maybe traumatise the victims further. Which isn't saying that people who have had this done don't need help but I really don't think a forced exam in school is what they need
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The "fence" is already in place....it is illegal to knowingly mutilate a child in this country, even if you take the child to another country, it is still illegal.......problem with that is that we have no way of finding out who is breaking the law

If parents knew that a medical examination was imminent and that they would be held accountable for any mutilation then they might think twice before sending their kids to get "cut".......

We really need to get tough on this practice.....I can only imagine with horror the fear these young girls experience......
 
archangel said:
The "fence" is already in place....it is illegal to knowingly mutilate a child in this country, even if you take the child to another country, it is still illegal.......problem with that is that we have no way of finding out who is breaking the law
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clearly its not in place because the practice still occurs
 
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archangel said:
It is in place just not implemented
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I meant the fence, not the law. The numbers that this happens to suggest that nothing actually preventing it is working, and I don't think subjecting anyone to a forced intimate exam is any form of answer. I agree completely it does need to stop, but the way to do that is to convince people this isn't acceptable so they don't do it. Any measure that catches after the act will only ever be clearing up
 
boyfalldown said:
clearly its not in place because the practice still occurs
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Yes it is.

Since when have fences prevented 100% of crimes? People climb over fences to commit crimes on a daily basis.

Clearly fgm rates would be higher if it were legalised.

However I do agree that said fence isn't high or deterring enough. More could be done.

For those of you against compulsory medicals for general abuse checks for all genders (including fgm for girls):

1. Why would a medical be a traumatic experience? Is the awkwardness / embarrassment not worth discovering such abuse?

2. If medicals are off the table, how do you plan on reducing the levels of fgm?

Note - pursuing more convictions is a poor argument.

The high standard of evidence needed in our criminal legal system is clearly not going to be changed.

Education may help, but the fact is many victims will simply not come forwards. Sometimes you have to be proactive in discovering such crimes.
 
ACW said:
Yes it is.

Since when have fences prevented 100% of crimes? People climb over fences to commit crimes on a daily basis.

Clearly fgm rates would be higher if it were legalised.

However I do agree that said fence isn't high or deterring enough. More could be done.

For those of you against compulsory medicals for general abuse checks for all genders (including fgm for girls):

1. Why would a medical be a traumatic experience? Is the awkwardness / embarrassment not worth discovering such abuse?

2. If medicals are off the table, how do you plan on reducing the levels of fgm?

Note - pursuing more convictions is a poor argument.

The high standard of evidence needed in our criminal legal system is clearly not going to be changed.

Education may help, but the fact is many victims will simply not come forwards. Sometimes you have to be proactive in discovering such crimes.
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I've never suggested that it should be made legal. What an abhorrent idea. And to be frank what a silly thing to post.

If you don't think a forced medical is a traumatic experience, ask a rape victim, or any other victim of a sexual crime how they'd like a forced exam. I hate to point this out but care of the victims, and their rehabilitation is more important then a conviction. And prevention is far better then picking up the pieces afterwards. Hows discovering someone has been a victim going to help there?
 
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boyfalldown said:
Maybe instead of being selective you'd quote me properly. (y). I've never suggested that it should be made legal. What an abhorrent idea. And to be frank what a silly thing to post.

If you don't think a forced medical is a traumatic experience, ask a rape victim, or any other victim of a sexual crime how they'd like a forced exam. I hate to point this out but care of the victims, and their rehabilitation is more important then a conviction. And prevention is far better then picking up the pieces afterwards. Hows discovering someone has been a victim going to help there?
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I never said you wanted it legalised, neither did I infer it? I suggest you read my post more carefully.

All I said was that a fence is in place, but that said fence is not high enough.

Yes of course victims and their welfare is extremely important, but let's not forget that such victims have the potential to prevent many more such atrocities.

I think both education and a deterrent (involving realistic chances of sporting and convicting those that carry out fgm) are necessary to help with prevention.

To reiterate my question then:

What's your suggestion for solving the issue without changing the amount of evidence needed?
 
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ACW said:
I never said you wanted it legalised, neither did I infer it? I suggest you read my post more carefully.
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why mention it then? I'd suggest you did infer it just by mentioning it & I read what you wrote just fine

ACW said:
All I said was that a fence is in place, but that said fence is not high enough.

Yes of course victims and their welfare is extremely important, but let's not forget that such victims have the potential to prevent many more such atrocities.
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I'm sure you haven't considered the ethics of forcing individuals into medicals for the well being of a population in that. However I do agree with your general point, but forcing a medical isn't the way

ACW said:
To reiterate my question then:

What's your suggestion for solving the issue without changing the amount of evidence needed?
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I'm not sure. Whilst this remains an international issue until you start to get the idea its unacceptable across the world its always going to be an issue. Which isn't saying it acceptable, but until granny in Sudan knows its not OK then you have an issue. I don't know how to solve that one Note I've never said anything about changing the amount of evidence needed either. How would you solve it? Forced medicals is the western world aren't OK
 
archangel said:
Mandatory reporting is in place.....if an individual is seen by medical staff to have been mutilated by a blade our any other weapon it should be reported to the police our at least the social care system....after all the child is being cut against their will, they are mostly under age so a duty of care is the legal responsibility of all medical staff....nothing to do with confidentiality......it is a legal responsibility of anyone in public office to report any type of child abuse......look what happened baby p and other when people looked the other way.....
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How often does intimate female examination of a child take place? Very rarely. You don't examine unless there's a clinical indication or need. Yes, once it's spotted there should be (and is) a reporting system in place. Certainly in one hospital trust where I worked, if there was evidence of FGM in a pregnant woman, it was reported. Beyond that, no idea what happened or whether it was followed up.

cambsno said:
It's not an exam. General medical, takes 2 or 3 seconds to see if anything may be wrong. Would bother me if my daughter had a general medical. I too remember the cough test fwiw.
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The cough test might have been for herniae but there's no clinical need to do this routinely in children. And it doesn't take "2-3 seconds". You have to see the entire genitalia, document (and draw) the FGM and grade of severity.
 
boyfalldown said:
I've never suggested that it should be made legal. What an abhorrent idea. And to be frank what a silly thing to post.

If you don't think a forced medical is a traumatic experience, ask a rape victim, or any other victim of a sexual crime how they'd like a forced exam. I hate to point this out but care of the victims, and their rehabilitation is more important then a conviction. And prevention is far better then picking up the pieces afterwards. Hows discovering someone has been a victim going to help there?
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Your looking at 2 different things. I stand to be corrected but I would guess that a trained medical person could spot fgm within a few seconds and without needing a detailed medical examination so to compare it to a rape victim is comparing apples and oranges. Obviously if anything was amiss you would need to examine further and yes, it could be traumatic... but if it helps reduce the act then its a good thing (as i would argue that fgm is far more traumatic than an examination).
 
archangel said:
I think all kids and vulnerable people should be screened for all abuse where possible...why not! If it makes society a better place...... too many crimes go unnoticed and too many people get away with abuse...... Time we stood up for the rights of the decent human and protect those who are at risk.....after all we live in a free world .......apparently!
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Whilst I agree with your general sentiments regarding abuse, in the case of FGM, to "forcibly" screen the likely victim group would be problematic. This vulnerable group belongs, as I understand it, a particular section of the female community. So to limit screening to that group alone could give rise to accusations of racism. That is sad but almost inevitable. To avoid that by carrying out screening of all females in the vulnerable age group would not be seen as acceptable in the wider community.
 
chadders said:
Whilst I agree with your general sentiments regarding abuse, in the case of FGM, to "forcibly" screen the likely victim group would be problematic. This vulnerable group belongs, as I understand it, a particular section of the female community. So to limit screening to that group alone could give rise to accusations of racism. That is sad but almost inevitable. To avoid that by carrying out screening of all females in the vulnerable age group would not be seen as acceptable in the wider community.
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Don't limit it to one group... screen everyone medically, therefore no racism accusations.... also it may help shout other forms of abuse in other young kids.....
 
I suspect that the parents of these girls would not consent to their child receiving a school medical anyway, as many parents already do. These medicals are routine, but cannot be carried out against parents' wishes.
 
chadders said:
Whilst I agree with your general sentiments regarding abuse, in the case of FGM, to "forcibly" screen the likely victim group would be problematic. This vulnerable group belongs, as I understand it, a particular section of the female community. So to limit screening to that group alone could give rise to accusations of racism. That is sad but almost inevitable. To avoid that by carrying out screening of all females in the vulnerable age group would not be seen as acceptable in the wider community.
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It's not racist it's fact! If one religion carries out these acts then how is it racist target them. The sooner we stop being PC the better. I would much rather 'be racist' and try to do something to stop this act then sit around being mr nice guy.

It is probably impossible to stop quickly, but a significant punishment like 15 years would prevent a lot.
 
cambsno said:
It's not racist it's fact! If one religion carries out these acts then how is it racist target them. The sooner we stop being PC the better. I would much rather 'be racist' and try to do something to stop this act then sit around being mr nice guy.

It is probably impossible to stop quickly, but a significant punishment like 15 years would prevent a lot.
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mmm so you think its a good idea to force victims of abuse into an intimate medical then? I'm interested as to how your significant punishment is going to stop it from occurring in those parts of the world where 98% of the population has some form of FGM, and the migrants from those countries who regard it as the norm.

cambsno said:
Your looking at 2 different things. I stand to be corrected but I would guess that a trained medical person could spot fgm within a few seconds and without needing a detailed medical examination so to compare it to a rape victim is comparing apples and oranges. Obviously if anything was amiss you would need to examine further and yes, it could be traumatic... but if it helps reduce the act then its a good thing (as i would argue that fgm is far more traumatic than an examination).
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you've had both FGM and an intimate exam then? No. What do you think the slight issues with forcing medicals on victims of crime may be?

As for it being apples and oranges to a rape exam, both victims have had a very traumatic experience, intimately damaging. Whys it OK to forces a medical on one victim of crime, not another?
 
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FGM is practiced among some adherents of the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish faiths. FGM is also practiced among some animists, who believe in the existence of individual spirits and supernatural forces. It is erroneously linked to religion, is not particular to any religious faith, and predates Christianity and Islam.
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From Human Rights Watch
 
archangel said:
Don't limit it to one group... screen everyone medically, therefore no racism accusations.... also it may help shout other forms of abuse in other young kids.....
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So, what you are saying is that because a small cultural minority in this country entertains this barbarous practice you want ALL female children subjected to an intimate examination. I think that's never going to be an option. The vast majority of parents simply would not stand for it. Why should the vast majority of the population be involved with with medical examinations for what is basically a practice of a very small percentage of the population?
 
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To screen all young females for Fgm - you would have to do it annually and as many of them don't have it done in this country - they would also have to be screened routinely at all ports and airports on leaving and entering this country - a logistical nightmare .
 
camerassassin said:
To screen all young females for Fgm - you would have to do it annually and as many of them don't have it done in this country - they would also have to be screened routinely at all ports and airports on leaving and entering this country - a logistical nightmare .
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And expensive too.
 
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