Falling price of Oil?

Yup, if people keep tagging @viv1969, she'll have your balls for dogfood!
 
Nod said:
So the extra air resistance that such ducts will cause isn't detracting from the energy?
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No not really. The air vent that feeds an intercooler is easily offset by the extra energy obtained by the intercooler and that isn't even a hole that would pass straight through the body work and vent into the atmosphere after spinning up a turbine.
 
nilagin said:
No not really. The air vent that feeds an intercooler is easily offset by the extra energy obtained by the intercooler and that isn't even a hole that would pass straight through the body work and vent into the atmosphere after spinning up a turbine.
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Yes, but that's different. The intercooler is not providing any power, it is enabling more of the potential energy of the fuel to be converted into power.

If you were to add more intakes and tried to extract energy from the airflow itself, physics means that you will gain less energy than if you didn't have them. If they were 100% efficient, you'd generate the exact amount of additional energy required to push the car harder to make up for the drag.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Yes, but that's different. The intercooler is not providing any power, it is enabling more of the potential energy of the fuel to be converted into power.

If you were to add more intakes and tried to extract energy from the airflow itself, physics means that you will gain less energy than if you didn't have them. If they were 100% efficient, you'd generate the exact amount of additional energy required to push the car harder to make up for the drag.
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Then use the existing intakes. No extra drag involved, the engine won't need to produce any extra power and any power provided by the turbine is extra.
 
srichards said:
The fuel they're selling now isn't from the oil that is selling now. There is a lag. I don't know how long that lag is though.
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Companies hedge (buy futures) so the spot (front month) price is not necessarily what you will see translated into fuel prices.

Also, as mentioned before, the fX rate and the cost of turning the crude oil to petrol/diesel is unknown.

So although the cost of fuel you put in the car is related to Brent Crude price, there are a various other factors that can result in a disproportionate change.

You have to look at contango and backwardation, the future price compare to the spot price. How much is hedged. FX and a raft of other factors.
 
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Cobra said:
Google says, the state of feeling remorseful and penitent.

Nope not me :p
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That you know the limitations bodes well for you. :D
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Yes, but that's different. The intercooler is not providing any power, it is enabling more of the potential energy of the fuel to be converted into power.

If you were to add more intakes and tried to extract energy from the airflow itself, physics means that you will gain less energy than if you didn't have them. If they were 100% efficient, you'd generate the exact amount of additional energy required to push the car harder to make up for the drag.
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Also to add if the extra drag is directed into downforce, tyres and wheels could be made narrower to compensate, as not as much grip would be necessary. This would decrease rolling resistance of the tyres and also a reduction of weight, all of which would mean the engine not having to produce extra power for any extra air resistance incurred.
Another thought for generating electricity to recharge the battery, would be something similar to the wave generators that go in the sea. Except these could work on the movement of the vehicles suspension as you drive along.
 
nilagin said:
Also to add if the extra drag is directed into downforce, tyres and wheels could be made narrower to compensate, as not as much grip would be necessary. This would decrease rolling resistance of the tyres and also a reduction of weight, all of which would mean the engine not having to produce extra power for any extra air resistance incurred.
Another thought for generating electricity to recharge the battery, would be something similar to the wave generators that go in the sea. Except these could work on the movement of the vehicles suspension as you drive along.
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All these things will help towards efficiency, no matter what you do, the energy that goes into the battery will be less than the energy exerted in charging them. So if you divert some engine power, the charge you gain will be less than the power burnt, if you increase drag and drive a turbine, the charge will be less than the amount of drag you have to overcome.

Using the suspension is a good idea, but it'll obviously stiffen the suspension, and the energy you gain will be less than the amount of additional resistance in the suspension.

It's impossible to create energy from nothing, the absolute best case is 100% efficiency, but it is absolutely impossible for a car to gain energy while it's driving. If it's gaining electrical energy, it's losing more than that somewhere else. Think about it, it would mean that you could start a journey, and drive continuously, for ever, the car would never run out of fuel.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
It's impossible to create energy from nothing, the absolute best case is 100% efficiency, but it is absolutely impossible for a car to gain energy while it's driving. If it's gaining electrical energy, it's losing more than that somewhere else. Think about it, it would mean that you could start a journey, and drive continuously, for ever, the car would never run out of fuel.
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I applaud your persistence. I've given up. #firstlawofthermodynamics
 
KitsuneAndy said:
All these things will help towards efficiency, no matter what you do, the energy that goes into the battery will be less than the energy exerted in charging them. So if you divert some engine power, the charge you gain will be less than the power burnt, if you increase drag and drive a turbine, the charge will be less than the amount of drag you have to overcome.
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Read what I said again, the turbine will produce little drag, that drag can be transferred into additional downforce onto the road. With additional downforce, you can fit narrower wheels and tyres as so much grip won't be required. This will reduce weight as well as rolling resistance so any extra work the engine may have had to do will be more than compensated for. An extra turbine in the exhaust won't use up anymore power neither as it will be using the exact same exhaust gases as would be driving the conventional turbo. So all the electrical energy produced will be free as it is being produced by energy already created. As far as the suspension is concerned it won't become stiffer, you are underestimating the strength of the shock absorbers and springs in a cars suspension.
 
The thermodynamics is weak in this thread.
 
Llamaman said:
The thermodynamics is weak in this thread.
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And so is your understanding. All that my ideas are doing is harnessing energy that isn't being utilised, just as they do by putting electricity into the NG or powering factories etc.
 
nilagin said:
And so is your understanding. All that my ideas are doing is harnessing energy that isn't being utilised, just as they do by putting electricity into the NG or powering factories etc.
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I wasn't specifically referring to you, but I think your ideas have some issues;

Spoilers are not entirely efficient, especially so at lower speeds. A variable angle and retractable spoiler is a significant engineering challenge when you're also adding a turbine to it.

On the turbine, the most efficient type is a HAWT. Unfortunately, the angle of attack for a HAWT is very oblique to that of an efficient spoiler - so there's an efficiency trade off.
A savonier-type turbine could be fitted within a spoiler, (and ease of maintenance would be a plus) but these are far less efficient that a lift-type turbine such as a HAWT, especially when scaled down to fit inside a spoiler.

There's also the energy cost of replacements - wind turbines require significant maintenance - inverter failure in particular is common. Whilst this is an engineering challenge rather than a physical constraint, it does suggest we are a good few years away from having turbines that can be reliably deployed as drag harvesters.

Edit: there's also a turbulence issue for vehicles behind. Whilst we shouldn't be tailgating, driverless technology will allow vehicles to drive closer together so this will become an issue.
 
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Llamaman said:
driverless technology will allow vehicles to drive closer together
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I'm not sure they could get any closer TBH, you only have to look at a typical morning on the M1 heading for the M25, a "fag paper width" I think is the technical term ;)
 
Cobra said:
I'm not sure they could get any closer TBH, you only have to look at a typical morning on the M1 heading for the M25, a "fag paper width" I think is the technical term ;)
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Difference is, with driverless tech, they can get that close AND not end up congested at the same time :D

I can't wait for driverless tech. Driving in anything other than an empty country road is a bore and driverless tech can do many times better + safer than attention lacking, emotional, slow humans. I do enjoy driving, but just not amongst other drivers who will cut in front of you at every opportunity, or hog the mid/right lanes and drive slowly.
 
wuyanxu said:
Difference is, with driverless tech, they can get that close AND not end up congested at the same time :D
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I thought that's what these smart motorways were supposed to do?
Granted I've seen it work in some places in others its been a total cluster f*** .. that begs the question would it have been OK anyway?

wuyanxu said:
I do enjoy driving, but just not amongst other drivers who will cut in front of you at every opportunity,
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Same here but who's to say these robots won't develop an "attitude" ? :D

wuyanxu said:
I can't wait for driverless tech.
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Not my lifetime I hope, we are worried about handing over control to Germany, tech is taking over our lives at an alarming rate,
and I'm sure its not a good thing.
( I've seen the Matrix :D )
 
wuyanxu said:
Difference is, with driverless tech, they can get that close AND not end up congested at the same time :D
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They will still need to drive at a safe braking distance, just in case an animal or person or object gets in the way.
 
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