Fake Britain bbc1

Moey said:
If a camera is £600 cheaper on one site compared to everywhere else and you think it's genuine, you are clearly in for a shock.
Click to expand...


oops better tell panamoz all their a9's are not genuine
 
George said:
Could it be, Stuart, that they were attempting to protect the identity of their source?...although as others have pointed out it's easy to see the s/no from the exif.
Click to expand...
I think the challenge was to come up with a *legitimate* reason.
 
killy said:
If he did he would have a 3 year warranty!!!
Click to expand...

Procamerashop gave out warranties ....... then they ceased trading leaving warranties worthless. :( They were actually one of the HK traders that supplied bodies with fake/changed serial numbers too!
 
I have a vague memory that some cameras had serial numbers changed as they were stolen from either the factory or a distributor warehouse.
 
George said:
Could it be, Stuart, that they were attempting to protect the identity of their source?...although as others have pointed out it's easy to see the s/no from the exif.
Click to expand...
That’s kind of my point... obsfucating the original source is not legitimate giving rise to the claim that the camera was “fake”.
 
Same old story really, people always want the cheapest option on purchasing gear, then moan when things go wrong
because they might have, and many do without problem, saved a few quid.
We all moan about the lack of decent high street shops, yet many use them as a place to go and find out what
camera etc. suits them, then go home and find the cheapest online, next thing they are moaning about lack of
after sales service!
 
Hmm, so if I buy an Epiphone made in Japan guitar, that will have the Gibson headstock shape, intended only for the Japanese market, will it be grey/fake, even though fetching a lot more money in the world outside Japan?
 
Pete B said:
Hmm, so if I buy an Epiphone made in Japan guitar, that will have the Gibson headstock shape, intended only for the Japanese market, will it be grey/fake, even though fetching a lot more money in the world outside Japan?
Click to expand...
With the Gibson or Epiphone name on it?
 
Gremlin said:
Same old story really, people always want the cheapest option on purchasing gear, then moan when things go wrong
because they might have, and many do without problem, saved a few quid.
We all moan about the lack of decent high street shops, yet many use them as a place to go and find out what
camera etc. suits them, then go home and find the cheapest online, next thing they are moaning about lack of
after sales service!
Click to expand...
It’s interesting though that (to give a couple of examples I was looking at today) Olympus Pen-F with a 17mm or a Fuji X-Pro 2 with 23mm lens (the later body and lens priced separately in U.K. high street store vs a “kit” at the grey market price) were both within £50 UK vs grey market retailer. A Nikon D750 body or Olympus OM-1 MkII body on the other hand is the best part of 33-50% more UK price vs grey market. So there is something greedy about some UK prices vs international prices.
 
Last edited:
Phil V said:
Not to mention actually charging the taxes that keep our schools and hospitals open.

The greedy bastards.
Click to expand...

With regards to the photo stuff I have bought so far, my only regret is that for a moment I lost the plot when I was buying a kit Nikon d7200 and I thought I needed to hurry up so I bought it from Amazon. All my other stuff is from UK brick and mortar stores albeit some bought on-line.

PS. I am missing again. My previous comment related to what is being charged over 20% which is the missing VAT. For example, why something costs 30% more and not 20% more in the UK.
 
Last edited:
Phil V said:
Not to mention actually charging the taxes that keep our schools and hospitals open.

The greedy bastards.
Click to expand...
I bet half a dozen politicians, keeping their money in offshore accounts, deprive the UK government of more in taxes than all the grey importers put together.
No one worries about them " legitimately" withholding their due taxes.
 
allanm said:
?..
No one worries about them " legitimately" withholding their due taxes.
Click to expand...

I think plenty of people more than 'worry' about it.

But let's be straight, I wasn't taking sides re grey imports; but responding to someone who'd suggested that UK dealers were too expensive because they were taking huge profits
 
Eloise said:
A Nikon D750 body or Olympus OM-1 MkII body on the other hand is the best part of 33-50% more UK price vs grey market. So there is something greedy about some UK prices vs international prices.
Click to expand...
I go into a shop, I can try the camera, talk to the staff, feel the weight, etc. That costs to provide. I can get a quick run-through of the controls and so on (I don't need it but many customers do) and that costs to provide.

When things go wrong, I can go back to the shop. When I poured hot chocolate over my new EOS 80D, I took it back to London Camera Exchange, and the chap sorted it out for there and then (no waiting for international postage both ways) and for free. That also costs to provide.

Providing a service is not greed.
 
john.margetts said:
I go into a shop, I can try the camera, talk to the staff, feel the weight, etc. That costs to provide. I can get a quick run-through of the controls and so on (I don't need it but many customers do) and that costs to provide.

When things go wrong, I can go back to the shop. When I poured hot chocolate over my new EOS 80D, I took it back to London Camera Exchange, and the chap sorted it out for there and then (no waiting for international postage both ways) and for free. That also costs to provide.

Providing a service is not greed.
Click to expand...

I do exactly the same at Park Cameras, and have even had an immediate replacement for a camera body that went wrong 6 weeks after I got it,
no hassle, no cost to me, just good old fashion service
 
Eloise said:
It’s interesting though that (to give a couple of examples I was looking at today) Olympus Pen-F with a 17mm or a Fuji X-Pro 2 with 23mm lens (the later body and lens priced separately in U.K. high street store vs a “kit” at the grey market price) we both witching £50 UK vs grey market retailer. A Nikon D750 body or Olympus OM-1 MkII body on the other hand is the best part of 33-50% more UK price vs grey market. So there is something greedy about some UK prices vs international prices.
Click to expand...
Sorry you completely missed the point... why is it some items ARE essentially the same price, while others have a big increase in costs. Presumably the retail markup is similar for each especially when comparing the markup on two items from the same manufacturer? Is it Nikon UK and Olympus UK who are being greedy

If you know me you know I do support bricks and mortar shops. I’m just curious why some items can be bought much cheaper grey market while others can’t. If (as I say above it’s Nikon UK and Olympus UK being greedy, then it’s on them that camera shops are dying.

PS. I deliberately didn’t mention names but those comparisons were from the same bricks and mortar shop vs same “reputable” grey market.
 
Phil V said:
I wasn't taking sides re grey imports; but responding to someone who'd suggested that UK dealers were too expensive because they were taking huge profits
Click to expand...
My post above said it mostly, but it appears my earlier post wasn’t clear.

I was suggesting it’s the UK distributors / importers who are perhaps making huge profits NOT the UK dealers.
 
Eloise said:
My post above said it mostly, but it appears my earlier post wasn’t clear.

I was suggesting it’s the UK distributors / importers who are perhaps making huge profits NOT the UK dealers.
Click to expand...
I suspect they're not.

There's an international guideline for price on import, the Far East get their cameras cheaper the Europe or the US, and (apart from new models where the UK dealers add a sum) the price is fairly consistent before tax.

If you check the Grey import price of Sigma lenses, you'll not see the same savings you get with Canon, because Sigma don't have the same price differential internationally. I've never checked other brands.
 
Phil V said:
I suspect they're not.

There's an international guideline for price on import, the Far East get their cameras cheaper the Europe or the US, and (apart from new models where the UK dealers add a sum) the price is fairly consistent before tax.

If you check the Grey import price of Sigma lenses, you'll not see the same savings you get with Canon, because Sigma don't have the same price differential internationally. I've never checked other brands.
Click to expand...
To clarify what you’re saying... you think the savings on offer on some items vs others is because some items are discounted in the Far East (where the grey importers source their stock) while other items aren’t? In the U.K. dealers stick much closer to “recommended” price?
 
Eloise said:
To clarify what you’re saying... you think the savings on offer on some items vs others is because some items are discounted in the Far East (where the grey importers source their stock) while other items aren’t? In the U.K. dealers stick much closer to “recommended” price?
Click to expand...
I don't believe it's about a 'recommended' price, just looking at what's happened to UK dealers over the last 10 years it's obvious there's not a lot of profit.

The items are 'slightly' cheaper in Hong Kong, if you then add no tax, you get quite a saving.

The tax is a big deal, which is why US prices always look so much lower... they're all exc tax, whereas ours are inclusive.
 
Phil V said:
I don't believe it's about a 'recommended' price, just looking at what's happened to UK dealers over the last 10 years it's obvious there's not a lot of profit.

The items are 'slightly' cheaper in Hong Kong, if you then add no tax, you get quite a saving.

The tax is a big deal, which is why US prices always look so much lower... they're all exc tax, whereas ours are inclusive.
Click to expand...
Phil, my point was that for some things there can be a big saving, yet other items there is less than £50. That means there is a bigger differential on prices depending what the item is.

Tax is a big element but that is supposed to be paid on any personal import. I’ve no idea if that’s acutally the case. Everything should be declared for VAT and lenses sold separately to “kits” have import duty in addition.
 
Eloise said:
Sorry you completely missed the point... why is it some items ARE essentially the same price, while others have a big increase in costs. Presumably the retail markup is similar for each especially when comparing the markup on two items from the same manufacturer? Is it Nikon UK and Olympus UK who are being greedy

If you know me you know I do support bricks and mortar shops. I’m just curious why some items can be bought much cheaper grey market while others can’t. If (as I say above it’s Nikon UK and Olympus UK being greedy, then it’s on them that camera shops are dying.

PS. I deliberately didn’t mention names but those comparisons were from the same bricks and mortar shop vs same “reputable” grey market.
Click to expand...

My guess is that there are sometimes higher discounts when manufacturers need to shift certain lines. The manufacturers are complicit in the grey imports business - they know exactly who's selling what, at what price, and where they got it from. They could stop it easily, or cut it to a trickle, but it suits them to have bulk buyers to moderate inventory and stock levels. At the end of the day - to be perfectly blunt about it - they don't really care what happens, so long as enough product goes out of the factory gates at the right price to them. Ultimately, that's their priority - they're in business after all, and nothing unusual or wrong about that.

The fuss put up by the local distributors, Canon and Nikon UK etc, is a lot of smoke and mirrors. All the local distributors are wholly-owned subsidiaries that took over from the likes of JJ Silber and Rank AV all those years ago, with the sole purpose of maintaining margin for the manufacturer (unlike Silbers and Rank etc, who wanted to take their own cut - understandably). They all have Japanese bosses and are run on a token profit basis (in the UK) so that maximum capital is retained in Japan.

Eloise said:
Phil, my point was that for some things there can be a big saving, yet other items there is less than £50. That means there is a bigger differential on prices depending what the item is.

Tax is a big element but that is supposed to be paid on any personal import. I’ve no idea if that’s acutally the case. Everything should be declared for VAT and lenses sold separately to “kits” have import duty in addition.
Click to expand...

But the tax is not paid, that's the point (VAT on everything, and duty too on lenses). I don't know how many items are picked up by HMRC but it's very few indeed - few enough for the retailer to reimburse the buyer on the rare occasion they get caught. That's how it works, no doubt about that.
 
Last edited:
Eloise said:
Phil, my point was that for some things there can be a big saving, yet other items there is less than £50. That means there is a bigger differential on prices depending what the item is.

Tax is a big element but that is supposed to be paid on any personal import. I’ve no idea if that’s acutally the case. Everything should be declared for VAT and lenses sold separately to “kits” have import duty in addition.
Click to expand...
There's no import duties on cameras, there is on lenses.

We have no real idea what the real out of factory costs are, it's not worth the amount of speculation given it by forums
 
TLR-330 said:
With regards to the photo stuff I have bought so far, my only regret is that for a moment I lost the plot when I was buying a kit Nikon d7200 and I thought I needed to hurry up so I bought it from Amazon. All my other stuff is from UK brick and mortar stores albeit some bought on-line.

PS. I am missing again. My previous comment related to what is being charged over 20% which is the missing VAT. For example, why something costs 30% more and not 20% more in the UK.
Click to expand...

I was tempted to buy my EOS 7D many years ago from grey importer because off the price. I also looked at going on holiday in the US and buying one there and bring it back in hand luggage.
The US market was the same in $'s as the price in £'s in the UK.
So when you strip out taxes ( as canon always state that is why there is a price difference ) and the exchange rate at the time the 7D was still more in the UK by a reasonable percentage. The motor industry had been doing this for years. In that a car in UK was X amount and the same car ( even with cost of right hand conversion and to UK spec ) the car was cheaper in Europe. I read a article ere a chap went to Italy to buy a Range Rover and saved over 18k. The dealer in Italy even arrange all his travel and accommodation as well !

The UK has been know as Treasurer Island by manufacturers because they can get away with increasing prices for the UK market.

The think I do not understand with the so called 'Fake' DSLR as the DSLR is still a Canon & Nikon. It is just not intended to be sold in the UK market. However was it still not made in the same Japanese factory and assembled in the same Thailand workshop !
So to me even there is an issue with serial numbers the camera is still an actual Nikon or Canon !
I can understand the Point & Shoot being brand as a canon when it is some cheap Chinese camera pretending to some else.
However a Nikon or Canon DSLR is still a Nikon or Canon !
So why should there be an issue with warranty any where in the world with repair.

I sent my Canon EF 70-300L IS USM lens to Canon UK for repair as it was just 3 weeks out side its warranty. I did buy it as a grey import and had a UK warranty from the UK importer. Canon informed me they would repair as it was just out side the warranty. Until they in formed me it was a European grey import and therefore I would be charged.
To me the spec of the lens is no difference from a UK spec, however there is a big difference in price !

Our markets are gear to help us relief us of the burden of having too much wealth, like houses, cars, TV's, DSLR's, Smart phones, tablets, laptops etc.
 
Tysonator said:
<snip>
However a Nikon or Canon DSLR is still a Nikon or Canon !
So why should there be an issue with warranty any where in the world with repair.
<snip>
Click to expand...

Exactly. But that doesn't suit the manufacturer's business model where warranty is used to promote local sales.

The argument that local distributors shouldn't have to pay for repairs on products not sold through them is easily resolved - just recharge the cost back to the parent company. In today's global market, the role of local distributors in every country is being eroded.

But while warranty and grey imports are often wrapped up as the same thing, they're actually quite different. Grey importing is basically about tax evasion.
 
Tysonator said:
The think I do not understand with the so called 'Fake' DSLR as the DSLR is still a Canon & Nikon.
Click to expand...

There were also a few reports of altering/re badging a couple of models. (can't remember which exactly) eg from a D800 as a D800E. Not to mention selling cameras as new, when they weren't.
 
Last edited:
HoppyUK said:
Exactly. But that doesn't suit the manufacturer's business model where warranty is used to promote local sales.

The argument that local distributors shouldn't have to pay for repairs on products not sold through them is easily resolved - just recharge the cost back to the parent company. In today's global market, the role of local distributors in every country is being eroded.

But while warranty and grey imports are often wrapped up as the same thing, they're actually quite different. Grey importing is basically about tax evasion.
Click to expand...


I agree the Grey issue is all about local Tax and what that market will bear in inflated retail price.
OldCarlos said:
There were also a few reports of altering/re badging a couple of models. (can't remember which exactly) eg from a D800 as a D800E. Not to mention selling cameras as new, when they weren't.
Click to expand...

I am sure this will always be an issue with deals done over the internet.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top