Exposure compensation

[Barney]

If I spot meter a scene and then lock it in with the exposure lock button, does the EV lock remain in place if I subsequently apply exposure compensation or will the compensation apply after the locked value has been identified.
Do I need to consider a specific order when selecting the EV lock or compensation?
My objective is to lock in the EV and then apply compensation to that previously metered value but not sure which to do first.
Nikon DSLR systems.

 

[Phil V]

You’re making a simple thing complicated.
Choose a shooting mode that suits how you want to work, rather than try to figure how to bend your working method to suit the camera mode.

And this question could have been answered with your camera in hand* rather than daydreaming scenarios and looking for answers to problems that you might not have.

Here’s my 2p.
Spot metering solves nothing, all metering patterns require a very small understanding of where they will get it wrong. Spot is the hardest to manage and Matrix metering is the most intelligent so only needs a cursory check.

Surely exp comp and ev lock are 2 answers to the same problem? Just designed for the way we want to work.

*All those years ago when I started photography, I spent hours and hours with camera in hand not shooting but framing shots and watching the meter, changing distances and seeing perspective change etc etc.

20 years later the same thing to learn how AF worked, a couple years later, relearning for digital.
Even after 40+ years I’ll still grab a camera to check out a theory.

 

[dans_shutter]

Personally I don't think it makes any differnece when you apply the compensation. It will always tell the camera that you want an over or under exposed image to what the camera thinks it should be based on the metering mode (spot in your case)

 

[Barney]

You’re making a simple thing complicated.
Choose a shooting mode that suits how you want to work, rather than try to figure how to bend your working method to suit the camera mode.

You could not be more wrong there Phil, with respect and no offense intended.

I have selected a method I want to use and would like to bend the camera's functionality to my requirements.

If I spot meter a black shadow area where I need to emphasize a rich dark detailed area, I do not want it averaged out to grey.

 

[Barney]

Personally I don't think it makes any differnece when you apply the compensation. It will always tell the camera that you want an over or under exposed image to what the camera thinks it should be based on the metering mode (spot in your case)

That's what I am trying to establish Dan, if it does make a difference. I don't mind p***ing about to get the amount of exposure compensation I want

 

[mstphoto]

Why not shoot in Manual and underexpose by a stop?

 

[Nod]

Experiment! Or read the manual. Or both...

 

[Barney]

Why not shoot in Manual and underexpose by a stop?

I do shoot in manual Mike, but I want to lock the EV at the value in that specific area and recompose. If I don't lock it every time I move about in the scene the exposure is recalculating at the release button.

 

[Phil V]

You could not be more wrong there Phil, with respect and no offense intended.

I have selected a method I want to use and would like to bend the camera's functionality to my requirements.

If I spot meter a black shadow area where I need to emphasize a rich dark detailed area, I do not want it averaged out to grey.

Well you appear to have completely misunderstood my post.

Maybe you’ll come back later, read and understand it and realise what I wrote.

Of course you need to override the meter.

all metering patterns require a very small understanding of where they will get it wrong.

But spot metering works like this.
Take a reading from an average item in the same light as your subject, use that reading, compose - shoot.
OR
Take a reading from an your subject, estimate the amount your subject is from average, dial in exp comp, compose - shoot.

CW or average metering patterns are slightly less hassle, matrix will take the scene and attempt to guess whether there’s items that would trip up the other patterns, bright highlights, strong difference between one part of an image and another etc.

ALL metering patterns require some knowledge of where they’ll get it wrong. But I wrote that before and you told me I couldn’t be more wrong

A ‘method that works for you’ is supposed to make life easy for you, you appear to be trying to make it as difficult as possible.

 

[Eucris]

I do shoot in manual Mike, but I want to lock the EV at the value in that specific area and recompose. If I don't lock it every time I move about in the scene the exposure is recalculating at the release button.

Have you tried "bracketing".

 

[Phil V]

I do shoot in manual Mike, but I want to lock the EV at the value in that specific area and recompose. If I don't lock it every time I move about in the scene the exposure is recalculating at the release button.

It’s not ‘Manual’ if the camera is changing the exposure.

Have you fallen into the trap of thinking that M with auto ISO is Manual?

Manual is M without auto ISO.
Most camera manufacturers fell into auto ISO without a plan and it’s now confusing folk

 

[Barney]

Experiment! Or read the manual. Or both...

Hi Nod,

We are on a board named Talk Photography, I am here to try and improve my photography, Is the answer - go over there sit in a corner play with your camera, read the manual.

I also understand the concept of "learning by doing"

Is there a list anywhere of things that can be asked and talked about here, or likewise those that cannot.

 

[Barney]

Have you tried "bracketing".

No, I had not considered that. Thank you!

 

[Barney]

It’s not ‘Manual’ if the camera is changing the exposure.

Have you fallen into the trap of thinking that M with auto ISO is Manual?

Manual is M without auto ISO.
Most camera manufacturers fell into auto ISO without a plan and it’s now confusing folk

I try not use auto ISO in digital, unless the light is changing fast I am wide open and I can't keep up, a real advantage.

With my film shooting there is no auto, or metering. I work it out myself.

 

[ancient_mariner]

It sounds like you're effectively shooting with manual exposure, just making life a bit harder than it needs to be.

Since you want control over the exposure, meter off the area you want and adjust exposure to match what the meter says is right, then manually apply compensation as needed. It reduces all the guesswork and the hassle of holding down AEL buttons while making other adjustments. And unless your camera works differently from all those I've used before (quite possible) exposure is only locked while your finger is on the button.

 

[Phil V]

I try not use auto ISO in digital, unless the light is changing fast I am wide open and I can't keep up, a real advantage.

With my film shooting there is no auto, or metering. I work it out myself.

So I’m confused by:

I do shoot in manual Mike, but I want to lock the EV at the value in that specific area and recompose.

Because if you’re shooting in Manual, once you’ve locked in the exposure, it doesn’t matter what happens with the metering when you recompose. It’s not changing anything.

What is it doing that you don’t like? Cos I’m confused by you needing to use exp lock if you’re shooting Manual, because it’s locked! That’s the point of shooting Manual.

 

[sk66]

You could not be more wrong there Phil, with respect and no offense intended.

I have selected a method I want to use and would like to bend the camera's functionality to my requirements.

Exposure compensation is a permanent setting (optionally resets with power cycle), so it doesn't matter when you set it. Depending on which Nikon you have, you may be able to enable "easy EC" which automatically puts EC on the free dial when in S or A modes.
Exposure lock is either temporary while the button is depressed, or can be set to "hold" (resets when pressed again). If set to hold you could press it first.

If I spot meter a black shadow area where I need to emphasize a rich dark detailed area, I do not want it averaged out to grey.

Or, what I would do is just spot meter something less dark so the black shadow is exposed darker... EC is something of a SWAG either way.

 

[Faldrax]

It sounds like you're effectively shooting with manual exposure, just making life a bit harder than it needs to be.

Since you want control over the exposure, meter off the area you want and adjust exposure to match what the meter says is right, then manually apply compensation as needed. It reduces all the guesswork and the hassle of holding down AEL buttons while making other adjustments. And unless your camera works differently from all those I've used before (quite possible) exposure is only locked while your finger is on the button.

My older A-Mount Sony's had a menu option to switch the AEL button to either 'Hold' (you need to keep the button pressed) or 'Toggle' (press once to lock, press again to unlock) mode - it's not something I've wanted to use on my A7iv, but it may well be the same.

 

[Plain Nev]

To be honest, metering is a flexible concept, for me. Mostly, I'll just make my adjustments on the basis of the highlight warning, and adjust for that. I can always raise any shadows afterwards.

 

[TimHughes]

@Barney, if I've understood what you want to do correctly, I would spot meter, check I'm getting the result I want, note the settings, then switch to fully manual and match those settings. This way, I'd be sure to get the same exposure for every shot.

If subsequent changes are needed, e.g., shutter speed, I'd compensate by making an equal number of clicks on another setting to keep the exposure the same.

 

[Barney]

Thanks to all who have tried to assist, I have just got back from Wales and it a nightmare for motorcyclists, no wonder I hardly saw another biker, not so photographers. I have skimmed through the replies but not had time to make sense of the answers.I will have a read through again and try to digest it and see where I am going wrong,

Thanks again

 

[Mostly Vintage Cameras]

My objective is to lock in the EV and then apply compensation to that previously metered value

I have a feeling this is the part that is causing confusion.

Most people using spot metering are doing so in order to get the "right" or "correct" reading first without extremes elsewhere in the scene confusing the average meter reading. Not many people are taking a spot reading and then adding compensation. If you had a white marble statue in direct sun normal metering would not cope. Spot read from the grey tarmac also in bright sun and use that setting, no need to add extra compensation for the white marble.

That's not to say what you wish to do is wrong, just not how most people work. Maybe you are working toward a new and inovitive work flow.



I guess if you meter from a mid tone and then decide to expose for something with a different light level falling on it you might want to do what you suggest, however if I had a reading for a mid tone in direct light and then wanted to photograph something in deep shadow I would either just take a reading from the thing in deep shadow or open up the aperture (or slow down the shutter speed) by what I felt was the difference. This would be no different to adding exp comp as the amount you open up or add exp comp would be the same value and are both based on your judgement.

will the compensation apply after the locked value has been identified.

Every model of camera operates a little differently. If we knew the model someone here might know the answer but with all due respect it would take you longer to type "I have a .." than to just try it in your living room and see what the display says.

 

[Phil V]

@Barney, if I've understood what you want to do correctly, I would spot meter, check I'm getting the result I want, note the settings, then switch to fully manual and match those settings. This way, I'd be sure to get the same exposure for every shot.

If subsequent changes are needed, e.g., shutter speed, I'd compensate by making an equal number of clicks on another setting to keep the exposure the same.

Why? Doesn’t your spot meter work in Manual mode?
Why not meter in M, save yourself a step.

 

[Barney]

I have a feeling this is the part that is causing confusion.

Most people using spot metering are doing so in order to get the "right" or "correct" reading first without extremes elsewhere in the scene confusing the average meter reading. Not many people are taking a spot reading and then adding compensation. If you had a white marble statue in direct sun normal metering would not cope. Spot read from the grey tarmac also in bright sun and use that setting, no need to add extra compensation for the white marble.

That's not to say what you wish to do is wrong, just not how most people work. Maybe you are working toward a new and inovitive work flow.



I guess if you meter from a mid tone and then decide to expose for something with a different light level falling on it you might want to do what you suggest, however if I had a reading for a mid tone in direct light and then wanted to photograph something in deep shadow I would either just take a reading from the thing in deep shadow or open up the aperture (or slow down the shutter speed) by what I felt was the difference. This would be no different to adding exp comp as the amount you open up or add exp comp would be the same value and are both based on your judgement.


Every model of camera operates a little differently. If we knew the model someone here might know the answer but with all due respect it would take you longer to type "I have a .." than to just try it in your living room and see what the display says.

Thanks for that MVC, I am not going mad after all.

I stumbled upon an effect by pure chance that has happened to me twice this year, both times when shooting film, and I like it. I have not seen it in photography as a desired effect before and that's maybe because its rubbish, but I like it and I want to reproduce it. It would probably be just as easy in lightroom, but I am an in camera guy and "its easier" does not enter my calculations at all.

I can reproduce it digitally in a roughshod manner. with film its really difficult to test it out and I cannot be precise at all. The method I devised to duplicate it digitally with a high degree of accuracy and repeatability requires that my first post request be established as the cornerstone of the process I want to employ. I am just going to have to sit there and field test it.

Sadly it is not possible to just test it in my front room, but I will figure it out.

Thanks to everyone, There are some fantastic tricks, tips and workarounds that although second nature to you are new to me. I will combine with my own thoughts and methods and if they work better than my idea I will be using them!

Apologies to anyone who has got frustrated with me or feels I have wasted their time. That was not my intention.

 

[Eucris]

Thanks for that MVC, I am not going mad after all.

I stumbled upon an effect by pure chance that has happened to me twice this year, both times when shooting film, and I like it. I have not seen it in photography as a desired effect before and that's maybe because its rubbish, but I like it and I want to reproduce it. It would probably be just as easy in lightroom, but I am an in camera guy and "its easier" does not enter my calculations at all.

I can reproduce it digitally in a roughshod manner. with film its really difficult to test it out and I cannot be precise at all. The method I devised to duplicate it digitally with a high degree of accuracy and repeatability requires that my first post request be established as the cornerstone of the process I want to employ. I am just going to have to sit there and field test it.

Sadly it is not possible to just test it in my front room, but I will figure it out.

Thanks to everyone, There are some fantastic tricks, tips and workarounds that although second nature to you are new to me. I will combine with my own thoughts and methods and if they work better than my idea I will be using them!

Apologies to anyone who has got frustrated with me or feels I have wasted their time. That was not my intention.

I f you tell us what the effect is then maybe we can tell you how to achieve it.

 

[Barney]

I f you tell us what the effect is then maybe we can tell you how to achieve it.

I want to put a zone 3 shadow in zone 6,7,8

 

[LeeRatters]

I think there are too many variables here tbh.

What camera, what mode, what you want to achieve etc And, we all shoot differently and want different results.

I very rarely use exposure lock tbh I'm not even sure if I've got it set to a custom button or not

 

[Clive K]

Have you tried "bracketing".

Have you seen the price of film and processing?

 

[Phil V]

There’s no complication here.

It really doesn’t matter what you’re trying to achieve. You can fix an exposure setting simply by shooting Manual*, or by shooting an auto mode and using exp comp or locking in your settings.

There simply is no mystery or complexity, EV is a fixed chosen value at the point of exposure, usually based on a meter reading, whether spot, average, matrix or even incident.

*again, if shooting manual you can simply choose a shutter speed or aperture that’s x stops different to your meter centre point, you can use exp comp if available. Prior to auto ISO, Canon never bothered with exp comp in M as it’s exactly the same as simply under / over exposing.

Exp lock is only for use in auto modes, where the camera would alter the exposure upon recomposing. But in M, the meter ‘showing’ a different value isn’t doing anything other than letting you know that what it’s now metering is different to when you metered.

 

[sk66]

I want to put a zone 3 shadow in zone 6,7,8

Without regards to pushing zones 8, 9, 10 off the scale? Then just add 1 stop to a spot metered exposure of the zone 3 area (the metered exposure should place it at zone 5/mid gray). Or you could just meter a zone 2 area. Doesn't matter how you do it. But be aware that the spot metering area is about 9-16x the size of a displayed focus point (3x3, 4x4) on most Nikons.

Or you could just add 3 stops to a matrix metered exposure in most cases, and not worry about spot metering and EV lock... Nikon's are very smart in terms of scene recognition/3D color metering.

But that's not really how the Zone System was intended... it is meant to combine an exposure offset AND development offset in order to maximize/replicate the scene DR in the final image. This would be more akin to underexposing and recovering the shadows with a fairly invariant camera (your D800e) with today's digital imaging. It's also not something you would want to do using your D4.

 

[Clive K]

I think the op is over complicating things. I understand what he is trying to do, but this cannot easily be achieved 'on the hoof' in my opinion. We don't know what the scene is, but I would suggest using the spot meter to assess the ev of each zone, write them down on a piece of paper then calculate which of those zones will give the best result and dial that in M mode.

It might be that you need to digitally dodge and / or burn if you can't achieve what you want in a single film exposure.

 

[Barney]

There’s no complication here.

It really doesn’t matter what you’re trying to achieve. You can fix an exposure setting simply by shooting Manual*, or by shooting an auto mode and using exp comp or locking in your settings.

There simply is no mystery or complexity, EV is a fixed chosen value at the point of exposure, usually based on a meter reading, whether spot, average, matrix or even incident.

*again, if shooting manual you can simply choose a shutter speed or aperture that’s x stops different to your meter centre point, you can use exp comp if available. Prior to auto ISO, Canon never bothered with exp comp in M as it’s exactly the same as simply under / over exposing.

Exp lock is only for use in auto modes, where the camera would alter the exposure upon recomposing. But in M, the meter ‘showing’ a different value isn’t doing anything other than letting you know that what it’s now metering is different to when you metered.

You're exactly right Phil,

In my incomplete understanding of what is possible, that is the first thing that came into my head.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I suspect @Barney is trying to achieve a way of thinking about exposure rather than grasping the practical mechanics of it at this point. Later he might have a D'oh moment and see it's possible with less hassle.

 

[sk66]

using the spot meter to assess the ev of each zone, write them down on a piece of paper then calculate which of those zones will give the best result

Ok, I'm not sure I could even do that...

 

[Barney]

Without regards to pushing zones 8, 9, 10 off the scale? Then just add 1 stop to a spot metered exposure of the zone 3 area (the metered exposure should place it at zone 5/mid gray). Or you could just meter a zone 2 area. Doesn't matter how you do it. But be aware that the spot metering area is about 9-16x the size of a displayed focus point (3x3, 4x4) on most Nikons.

Or you could just add 3 stops to a matrix metered exposure in most cases, and not worry about spot metering and EV lock... Nikon's are very smart in terms of scene recognition/3D color metering.

But that's not really how the Zone System was intended... it is meant to combine an exposure offset AND development offset in order to maximize/replicate the scene DR in the final image. This would be more akin to underexposing and recovering the shadows with a fairly invariant camera (your D800e) with today's digital imaging. It's also not something you would want to do using your D4.

That is the thing Steven, I want some pushed off the scale but not everything in the scene "in that area" would be demolished.

My exposure compensation, D3s today, has five stops compensation either way.

without adjusting speed, aperture, which I could well be on the limit of for holding and dof effect, exposure compensation just seemed easier.

 

[sk66]

That is the thing Steven, I want some pushed off the scale but not everything in the scene "in that area" would be demolished.

My exposure compensation, D3s today, has five stops compensation either way.

So you're basically going for a high key exposure (almost nothing below mid gray), and at the cost of otherwise recordable highlights (also often part of the high key look)?
In that case, I would just add ~ 3 stops to a matrix metered exposure as a starting point. Doesn't matter if you use +3 EC, or set the meter to max deflection in manual.

(I assumed you had the D800e/D4 listed in your profile)

 

[LeeRatters]

I think the op is over complicating things. I understand what he is trying to do, but this cannot easily be achieved 'on the hoof' in my opinion. We don't know what the scene is, but I would suggest using the spot meter to assess the ev of each zone, write them down on a piece of paper then calculate which of those zones will give the best result and dial that in M mode.

It might be that you need to digitally dodge and / or burn if you can't achieve what you want in a single film exposure.

The sun would have set by then

 

[Barney]

So you're basically going for a high key exposure (almost nothing below mid gray), and at the cost of otherwise recordable highlights (also often part of the high key look)?
In that case, I would just add ~ 3 stops to a matrix metered exposure as a starting point. Doesn't matter if you use +3 EC, or set the meter to max deflection in manual.

(I assumed you had the D800e/D4 listed in your profile)

I have other cameras that I use in rotation D3s, D700, D750. Mostly old stuff, I am not a menu person, takes to long. I like buttons.

 

[Mostly Vintage Cameras]

In the old days when cameras started coming out that could take eight spot readings and average them out the joke was the result would always be 1/125 @ F8! It's a good place to start.

 

[Barney]

I think the op is over complicating things. I understand what he is trying to do, but this cannot easily be achieved 'on the hoof' in my opinion. We don't know what the scene is, but I would suggest using the spot meter to assess the ev of each zone, write them down on a piece of paper then calculate which of those zones will give the best result and dial that in M mode.

It might be that you need to digitally dodge and / or burn if you can't achieve what you want in a single film exposure.

That is the ultimate conclusion