Event photography

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digitalmaniac

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Has anyone noticed how a large number of event photography companies are churning out far from acceptable work-some of the sites are making a killing selling work my daughter would cringe at if she took the picture, and she is 13.

Hope you dont think im just being a biggot-but they truly are terrible.

Whats your thoughts
 
We had a football tournament in Kent this weekend, and some of the Togs taking the pictures were around 13, and honestly didn't have a clue (in fairness though there was a younger member who was excellent, so I am not doing them down because of their age - more because they are cheap!)

Some of the pics were quite good, but there was also some very dire ones, ones that we would delete, but they hope some mug would buy
 
A lot of event photographers arnt setup to do sports properly. I went to a football tournament last year ..19 pitches and over a hundred teams. there was six photographers in the company and not one of them had anyting over a 70mm lens. They where happy to just do team and sportraites. i got hired on the spot for a daily rate shooting the action :)
 
I posted something a while back, and it was removed because I actually linked to someone, but I couldnt believe how much these people were charging, for dire photos.

It'll never change if people keep paying through the nose for some of the crap Ive seen :(
 
I have given the digital copies of many of the pics I took, to parents we know, as they all came and asked....nothing to do with them being free of course!!
 
Betty said:
It'll never change if people keep paying through the nose for some of the crap Ive seen :(
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Unfortunatly thats not easy. An event photographer should be the only ones there taking the pictures. thus you have no choice other than poor or none. people are happy just to see a pic, any pic. if there where more choices then the poor photographers would lose out. But with no choice then......
 
The other problem, is that no one (massive generalisation ;)) knows any better...

For a quick example, remember the Apprentice photography task? They were selling a photo for £15.99 printed on a poxy bit of plain A4 paper - As far as we saw, no one complained, so they must've been happy.

WRT the quality of the photo, for the masses, most images produced by even a poor tog with an SLR will be better than the majority of compact cameras, so they think they've got a good deal.

My 2p ;)
 
i work for an event photography team and all of our photographers and office staff are trained photographers so it annoys me when i see other event teams who do a poor job because although we get better business if we can prove we're better we shouldnt have to be doubted from the start as to how good we are. we charge £12 for a 12x8 print which i think is a very reasonable price and give 10% of all sales to the charity and or club that we are working for.
 
Yes tom i have seen some very good photography also-but one of the largest not mentioning any names who has dozens of franchised photographers around the country is appalling.

there is definitely a market to do some good work in this area and hopefully bring the genre up a bit.

I do intend on utilising this market and hope i can do just that.

Even the events like proms and stuff-very poor studio lightning.
 
Sign of the times guys, cheap digital SLR's and folk see others making from it so they wan a piece of the action. I totally agree, theres some really poor examples out there. Its hard to say what can be done, or should there be something done, who are we to say they can't. So is it down to the customer then?

Iain
 
Having not seen the photos in question it's a bit difficult to comment.

But in general I think that if a photographer is meeting their customer's requirements (my prefered definition of quality) who am I to judge. I may think that I can do better, but there is a huge difference in thinking something and actually doing it. I saw some dreadful wedding shots last year (not a single one straight) from a chap charging £2000 but the customer was delighted with the results :shrug: so all I say is good on him, I'm sure it meant he had to spend alot of time Post Production but that's his choice.

There is also a big difference between photography as a business and photography as an artfrom. IMO event photography is about as far away as possible from the art side as it's possible to get and it really is all about getting shots that the public want to buy as quickly as possible - there is no time for post production, if it's not right in camera there are no second chances. I would encourage everyone to go and look at the latest copy of Professional Photographer (the one with the magician on the front) it has an article about a day in the life of an event photographer and see the results of someone who is recognised to be one of the best - now IMO they aren't master pieces but they do capture the event and I'm guessing he was well received as it is his second year.

I do events and I'd like to think the majority of my photos are good (of course we all produce some shots we don't like). However when I am at an event I am a business man before photographer so if a customer wants to buy a photo I don't like, I will try to talk them in to one I do like but if they are insistant will I sell them the one I don't? Of course I will - they are the customer.
 
digitalmaniac said:
Has anyone noticed how a large number of event photography companies are churning out far from acceptable work-some of the sites are making a killing selling work my daughter would cringe at if she took the picture, and she is 13.

Hope you dont think im just being a biggot-but they truly are terrible.
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If you post examples of that "far from acceptable work" we may think you are not a bigot.
 
digitalmaniac said:
Has anyone noticed how a large number of event photography companies are churning out far from acceptable work-some of the sites are making a killing selling work my daughter would cringe at if she took the picture, and she is 13.

Hope you dont think im just being a biggot-but they truly are terrible.

Whats your thoughts
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Yep I have to agree I have seen some pretty terrible ones ( images)

dod said:
If they're that bad why don't you do it yourself :shrug:
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Trouble is Dod, around here at least, a lot of them have it
( an event) "sown up" I guess they pay to be there or have some form of official contract
 
DollyBuster said:
If you post examples of that "far from acceptable work" we may think you are not a bigot.
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Well Dolly it is copyright as im sure you can understand and am not risking any law suits here thanks-also would bring bad press to the forum.

I tell you what without naming names do a google search for events photographer and click on the first 5 sites you come to and tell me what you think.
 
You think thats bad, you should see the Prom Photo's board in my old school...

I'm very tempted to take my cameras, some portrait films, and flashes to my Sixth Form leaving ball.
 
digitalmaniac said:
I tell you what without naming names do a google search for events photographer and click on the first 5 sites you come to and tell me what you think.
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Well I've taken a look and you are right (from the ones that provide access to their real shots) there are some bad shots in all of them, but equally there are some good shots in all of them too !

The event photography business model is all about speed and workflow; what you see is unlikely to have had any PP whatsoever not even basic cropping. I would expect that once purchased the salesman will perform basic PP to improve the photo infront of the clients eyes thus making someone who was happy to pay for a photograph even happier and in some cases evangelistic about the service.

If we all put every photo you took online what would our individual ratios of good to bad be?
 
Well from the other side of things I used to buy quite a few event photos.
If I were to pretend I had taken them and put them on here asking for c&c I would get told they were pretty much rubbish - BUT - even though they are technically imperfect to look at and criticise, to me they caught the moment in time and are far better than if they had been cropped to get the composition right, and been beautified and processed so that they are technically acceptable. Yes there are imperfections to some of them but if this was removed I would feel almost as if the image was sterile and it would lose its appeal.

I hope this makes sense, it sounds odd on a forum where everyone wants to see the best possible pictures that a lot of my favorites are far from perfect, and I prefer them that way, its almost as if the imperfections keep the emotion of the event if you could call it that!!
 
susie said:
Well from the other side of things I used to buy quite a few event photos. snip....
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That sounds exactly like my wife Susie. I'll look at a shot and am just hitting delete when she'll stop me and say "so and so will love that". As photographers we forget that what we want is not necessarily what the customer wants. She wants a reminder of the day, the atmosphere, the event itself, not necessarily a "perfect" picture.
 
I know what your saying of course-my ratio is ok-that is to say all my pics come out correctly exposed or can sort them out-that doesnt mean they are all masterpieces far from it.

You are right event photography is quick and by the nature not as exacting.

But getting the iso right and things like this is basicsand these are typically supposed to be pros.

Some i would be embarrassed to be associated with if I were the company in charge and others very proud of.

There are particulaly some very good horse show pics on the net-a lot of pride taken in these generally.

As far as them editing the images for fimal sale-most of the online sales are sold with the customer thinking that is what they are getting-not like actually at a show. Im not sure any ps is done frankly.
 
right as a proffesional event photographer let me clear a few things up. ISO, Aperture and Shutter speed are of utmost importance (with my business anyway) without these correct you can kiss anything else goodbye. we attend events FOR FREE and GIVE money back to the charity/club - if they were not happy with the services we provided theres is no contract so they could get rid of us but considering we get bookings from previous events for future events sometime upto 2years in advance i think its safe to say we do a bloody good job. yes composition isnt an issue for us because what we are capturing is someone doing somehting, we're not trying to win awards or even say that they're out best images but they do the job and we sell the images to the clients without complaint. we will NEVER EVER sell an out of focus shot or the like so theres is no argument there either. PP work is just simple stuff like brightness and contrast/cropping/sharpening. all of this is done After they have ordered and before printing however the image is ALWAYS shown to the client before it goes through the print. I am not saying in anyway shape or form that there aren't crap event photographers out there however one of the five that come up first in google is the biggest franchise in england and i can personally vouch for the fact they use professionaly trained togs who know what they are doing. As an event photographer i do like my job and at times i do look at images and i know that if it wasnt for someone else it'd be alot better but at football/rugby/swimming/cricket etc etc all the person wants is an image that shows their son/daughter (or themselves) doing that sport and so the main aim is the face!!! Again i have done proms etc before and take the same view - you shouldnt be pleasing yourself if the buyer isnt pleased because you wont take money. so set up your kit, take the images as best you can (remember at summer balls people dont wanna hang around long to pose etc they'd rather get a drink and see their mates) and get on with life.
 
Whist I appreciate your job being as you have described-many event companies openly sell franchises saying no previous experience we will train you.

This doesnt make a pro does it. Takes years and im sorry to say some of the images ive seen wouldnt be classed as rush shots-but pure incompetency.
 
profesionalism doesnt take years that is a load of ****, :bang: so the images arent up to your taste? who are you to say anything ANYTHING atall about it? i'd like to see you cover 40 football teams in 2hrs with 10players on each time who only play for about 5mins total and have 10 pitches to cover! DONT COMMENT IF YOU HAVENT WORKED OUT HOW BLOODY HARD IT CAN BE
 
Dont get assy with me ok. i have every right to comment on something that is in the public eye.

You have taken it personally-when i havnt even judged your work personally.

Comments like these have been made many times on many forums.

Yes its hard to get it done-but so is wedding photography and they mostly get well composed shots in the same time of just as many people.

I will judge what i see to be poor photography-shame the customer didnt more.
 
digitalmaniac said:
Yes its hard to get it done-but so is wedding photography and they mostly get well composed shots in the same time of just as many people.
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To be fair with Wedding Photography the majority of images are treated to significant post processing prior to the customer or us seeing them. So IMO you'll rarely see a wedding photograph with a slanted horizon or similar imperfection but that doesn't mean it came out of the camera like that.

I've said it before the main part of event photography is the workflow and keeping the time from shutter to print as low as possible. This can be very pressurised and to produe good resuts the photographer really needs to be on the ball. I am sure even the best will let a poor photo slip though occasionally. That's why its important to have a good wingperson on the sales desk to highlight such errors and prevent the public from seeing them (as far as possible)

If you would like to find out how you can do in that situation I can offer you (and anyone else who fancies a challenge) the opportunity to negotiate attendance at an event somewhere (check with me first that I'm not already booked on that date) and while you take photographs I will attend with my sales kit (pro printer, viewing stations, image server & stall). All photos you take are uploaded to the system and made available for sale we'll split the profits 50:50.

The rules of the game are simple no deletion of photos on the camera and images can only be deleted at the stall and then only if they are OOF or way over/under exposed. My costs to attend and the material costs are covered out of any sales before your costs to attend are taken. The remainder, which is the profit, is split 50:50. You can then either make images available for sale through your own or my website (if mine we'll split the profit here too).
 
digitalmaniac said:
Yes its hard to get it done-but so is wedding photography and they mostly get well composed shots in the same time of just as many people.

Harsh comparison imo. If the images arent great dont buy them. But dont get upset over it. If you can do better go for it.
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Yep, some event shots I have seen recently are awful. My daughter (as have all the pupils in her year) has been asked to dress in Winter uniform for a day next week when they will have their official class and individual photographs done... again!!! The first ones couldn't even be printed I am told!

God, if only I could get into this event stuff... I'd love to have a try. I did my first event last weekend and feel I did OK. Would love to do more.
 
It's the same for Wedding photography, people with digital thinking they can do the job.
The amount of people who call me up saying we got a friend to shoot or wedding for us.
Can you have a look at the pictures and give them a professional look for us.
And I am like, you want me to spend hours fixing your photos and give them a professional look.
If you wanted professional looking pics then why the F@?k didn't you get a professional.
The world is full of idiots and at one time you could use the idiots to get further in life, now the idiots are taking over.
 
The reason I got into equine event photography is because I was fed up with the quality of images my wife was coming home with from events. I haven't got the same set up as Simon or cableliquid as I don't sell on site and the set up costs can be expensive. However, the main reasons for not going down the print on site route are reliability of staff manning the 'stall' as I would need to rely on them to do a good PP job and trust them with cash and getting into the larger events which, as Cobra says, are pretty well sewn up by the more established companies.

Obviously I can only speak from the equestrian side of things but the 'togs I know are having a difficult time of it at the moment and I honestly believe this is due to the quality of the finished product. I was at a major event last year and whilst browsing the prints in the photographers tent I saw three people ask for a refund as the prints were "not good enough". To me this says that customers are getting more picky and conscious of the quality of prints and the event photography companies will have to up their game and start employing proper photographers as opposed to kids and students who haven't got a clue about the equipment they are using. At this same event I spoke to one of the 'photographers' covering a fence and discovered that they didn't even have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of photography, the guy in charge had set up the camera for her (probably in P mode) and let her get on with it - on a Nikon D2Hs and 70-200mm f/2.8 VR.

Interesting thread this and Simon, if you weren't so far away I'd take you up on your offer.
 
Hacker said:
Interesting thread this and Simon, if you weren't so far away I'd take you up on your offer.
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Well if you can find a 3 day event that you can negotiate sole access to with a good number of people likely to turn up I am pretty sure that we'd turn a profit even with the travel I'd need to do. Preferably one that has onsite power but as I've now sourced suitable generator hire at £85 a week (better than £900 to buy) it's not the end of the world.

You are right with onsite printing the sales stall is the key component as that is where money is made or lost and that needs to be attended by someone who can sell and can cope if the computers act up. It's true that it helps if they are a photographer but not critical IMO, the PP work is really limited to cropping or basic brightness type adjustments and is a piece of the proverbial in lightroom. It's easier finding a tog than it is a salesman which is why I'm leaving the togging to someone else at the weekend.
 
digitalmaniac said:
You are right event photography is quick and by the nature not as exacting.
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I was just having a look at your site. I might be missing something as I could see the events tab but couldn't find any examples?
 
SimonTALM said:
Well if you can find a 3 day event that you can negotiate sole access to with a good number of people likely to turn up I am pretty sure that we'd turn a profit even with the travel I'd need to do. Preferably one that has onsite power but as I've now sourced suitable generator hire at £85 a week (better than £900 to buy) it's not the end of the world.

You are right with onsite printing the sales stall is the key component as that is where money is made or lost and that needs to be attended by someone who can sell and can cope if the computers act up. It's true that it helps if they are a photographer but not critical IMO, the PP work is really limited to cropping or basic brightness type adjustments and is a piece of the proverbial in lightroom. It's easier finding a tog than it is a salesman which is why I'm leaving the togging to someone else at the weekend.
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Simon

I've had this problem now for two years ...

When I first started out in the equestrian game - there was my partner on the sales stall with another employee and myself with another equine tog.

Sadly as time went on, the employee got bored of the game and left. This left me with my partner doing the sales pitch/editing/printing and myself with another equine tog.

I tried to put her in the box as I know my pictures are far better than anything she could produce ... but later found she did nothing but chitter chatter to the public (without the sales!).

My partner later sacked her. Then, my partner became too busy with the running of shows which left me. I had a young man I know come work for me for a few months. He could work a computer like there was no tomorrow ... but he had no personality about him and would shy from the public. He was no salesman ....

Ideally, I could do with a clone! I don't trust anyone enough too much yet to stick them in the ring on an Area Festival / Regional and leave me to do the sales... Sadly I am very protective about the quality of the products (my clients over the years have been nothing but supportive of me and delighted that the product I've sold has got better and better).

Without having top class people at the forefront and the backend of the game, you may as well not turn up.

Another thing I've found is - the equine game up here is relatively small. So I see the same competitors out and about all the time. They know me personally now and trust me. They'll say "print me the best two you have of me" and know that they're getting a good product. Doesn't quite happen that way when you're not there to feed them!

I could go on for hours about this stuff .... !!

I think what the majority of members on here need to appreciate is also - event photography is damn hard work. There are no second chances at capturing a particular moment in time. Prom photography is easier (I'm allowed to say, I've covered plenty). The equine business is hard and sadly at the moment, is being over run with younger people with a DSLR trying to make a name for themselves. They put a print package together for £30 (I'm not kidding you) and then members of the public quote you against it!

I often advise people that call me for a private quote that you do get what you pay for and 9/10 they'll come back for the business having thought about it.

Best of luck to anyone going to venture into this area - but be prepared for a tough time!
 
yup papa laz, we too have had people ring us asking if we can edit/photoshop. the photographs their freind took of their wedding.
we often say. "well we can have a look at them, but if theyre small , poor quality files, theres only so much we can do and we charge £(silly money) per hour".
usualy gets rid of em.
as with all types of photography, sadly there are some less than proffesional outfits.
but as has been said, there are often customers out there who wouldnt recognise a decent quality shot if it was wedged between their buttocks.
if people are happy to buy the stuff they produce, then they'll carry on doing it.
and please dont get bitchy chaps.ALL areas of pro photography are hard work. and is is often difficult to produce the shots you want.
as for event photography.your braver than i am. give me a wedding anyday.
 
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