Ethical/Moral Question regarding potential clients

CarlukeDave

CarlukeDave

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I was asked today to take some promotional shots for a band, decent fee, so far so good. I was then told that the band are "political" and sing songs about the troubles in Northern Ireland, on checking, many of their songs mention the ira.

I am going to refuse the booking, I feel very uneasy about my work being used to promote something I disagree with and I feel being associated with something like that could have an adverse effect on my other business, charities, wedding and portraits.

I would be very interested in what other people would do in the same situation.

Dave
 
change your (company) name... take their pics... take their cash... change name back again... win.


? ? ?
 
It wouldn't bother me but then everyone has something they feel strongly about so I think it's really a personal thing!

I think you may get more views than replies with this thread.
 
I think this is twofold
1. is it something you persnally feel strongly about?
2. could it adversely affect your business?

For 1 it would have to go a long way to turn me off a fee, but we wouldn't, for example, do the marketing images for the bnp.
For 2 - say no every time.

L
 
admirable said:
It wouldn't bother me but then everyone has something they feel strongly about so I think it's really a personal thing!

I think you may get more views than replies with this thread.
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It's not a subject that I feel strongly about, I think most people find terrorism morally repugnant, and it's not the kind of image that I would want to project upon my business.

Dave
 
Headless Lois said:
I think this is twofold
1. is it something you persnally feel strongly about?
2. could it adversely affect your business?

For 1 it would have to go a long way to turn me off a fee, but we wouldn't, for example, do the marketing images for the bnp.
For 2 - say no every time.

L
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, I spoke to a mate about it and he said a similar thing, he asked if I would take photos for a BNP flyer, to which I said never, it's kind of the same thing.

Dave
 
CarlukeDave said:
I was asked today to take some promotional shots for a band, decent fee, so far so good. I was then told that the band are "political" and sing songs about the troubles in Northern Ireland, on checking, many of their songs mention the ira.

I am going to refuse the booking, I feel very uneasy about my work being used to promote something I disagree with and I feel being associated with something like that could have an adverse effect on my other business, charities, wedding and portraits.

I would be very interested in what other people would do in the same situation.

Dave
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Good on you Dave- I would do exactly the same.
 
Sinn Fein maybe - a 'legit' political Party after all... even with my background...

But PIRA? No way...

...and TBH, any band singing Provo songs these days is damn stupid, considering the light in which CIRA and RIRA are now viewed even in the 6 Counties...

It's one thing singing 'Bold Fenian Men' at a celidh, but this doesn't sound like that...
 
I would also turn down the gig if I felt strongly against the cause being promoted. It's a sad day when anybody has to give up their beliefs or principles for cash.

However, I am no better than anyone else and my beliefs and principles, or how strongly I objected, would probably be inversely proportionate to the cash being offered.
 
card62606 said:
However, I am no better than anyone else and my beliefs and principles, or how strongly I objected, would probably be inversely proportionate to the cash being offered.
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Good point. Also, would people think 'the photographer must naturally be a supporter of the cause'?

L
 
you state that the band mention the IRA and also that they sing about the troubles

you dont say what their stance is though , if they had a purely neutral stance i wouldn't be bothered
 
Having an Irish wife, she asks "Are they singing about the IRA" as people like Cristy Moore & Saw Doctors etc sing about the troubles as do lots of other famous bands, or are they "Singing the praises of PIRA etc"

There is a huge difference between the two :shrug::shrug:
 
mrgas said:
you state that the band mention the IRA and also that they sing about the troubles

you dont say what their stance is though , if they had a purely neutral stance i wouldn't be bothered
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They certainly aren't neutral on it, it wouldn't be a problem if they were.

One of the things on their site says "if easily offended, stay away"

I live and work in the west of Scotland, there is a lot of sectarianism and bigotry in the area, I don't want to be attached to it in any way!
 
Tbabe said:
Having an Irish wife, she asks "Are they singing about the IRA" as people like Cristy Moore & Saw Doctors etc sing about the troubles as do lots of other famous bands, or are they "Singing the praises of PIRA etc"

There is a huge difference between the two :shrug::shrug:
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They are nothing like Christy Moore, I enjoy Christy Moore. They are definitely a pro ira band.
 
mrgas said:
what band is it ?
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I'd rather not name the band, it's more the principle I was discussing. They are a new band and it's their first album though.
 
I come from the area and I totally understand your viewpoint. Why take the chance of alienating a very large part of the population where you live by being associated in any way with either extreme. :)

If it causes you even the slightest unease then walk away and sleep easily.
 
I'm afraid no amount of money offered would encourage me to help promote a band who vocally support an outlawed terrorist oganisation that have killed and maimed many innocent people of Britain and Ireland.
 
if it is being associated with them (& therefore their views) that you're worried about could you not just charge them a bit more to buy the copyright for thre images so you don't have your name anywhere on the images?

Obviously if it's the fact that you don't want to support a band with their views it's a decision that you alone have to make.
 
I think you are doing the right thing.
 
Hi Dave,

Personally I think you have done the right thing, I would have done the same
 
I don't think I'd have any problem with "political" as such, so long as they weren't in any way promoting violence. Everyone is entitled to a viewpoint even if I strongly disagree with it.
So long as it remains a reasoned argument between civilised people then it's fine.

But if you're not happy with it then you're perfectly entitled to just walk away. Don't do anything that compromises your own beliefs.
 
i could not photograph anything i disbelive in...ever
whatever the money
 
I think the question is are the band actually supporting the Pira/Cira or are they just using the words to be contoversal, lots of rappers for exapmle talk about killing and drugs etc, but it's often just to get a reputation rather than things they support.
At the end of the day it's down to what your comfortable with.
 
Thanks very much for all the replies.

I respect the rights of people to hold views that I and many others may find unsavoury, however I won't be associated with it. Not only as I'm concerned about the impact on future business, but morally I don't think it's right.

Dave
 
CarlukeDave said:
I was asked today to take some promotional shots for a band, decent fee, so far so good. I was then told that the band are "political" and sing songs about the troubles in Northern Ireland, on checking, many of their songs mention the ira.

I am going to refuse the booking, I feel very uneasy about my work being used to promote something I disagree with and I feel being associated with something like that could have an adverse effect on my other business, charities, wedding and portraits.

I would be very interested in what other people would do in the same situation.

Dave
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Well done. I would do exactly the same.

Unfortunately, there is a hell of a lot of people out there who will do almost anything for money.

Lisa
 
swanseamale47 said:
I think the question is are the band actually supporting the Pira/Cira or are they just using the words to be contoversal, lots of rappers for exapmle talk about killing and drugs etc, but it's often just to get a reputation rather than things they support.
At the end of the day it's down to what your comfortable with.
Click to expand...

...and a lot of rappers are former gang members who've commited various acts of rape, murder, drug-dealing etc and quite often get shot...lots...

But I think that's slightly different unless you view the 'Gangsta' lifestyle as a political statement rather than a social phenomenon...

Aligning yourself with a proscribed terrorist organisation isn't quite the same as rapping about ho's and blow...

What next?
Terry and The Talebans?
Now! That's What I Call Insurgency -50?
 
Update - I spoke to the person and advised them I wouldn't do it and the reasons. They totally understood and have asked me to do a portrait shoot of their little girl.

They said they respected the fact that I was honest about it rather than just ignoring it!

Dave
 
A little late I know, but I think you've done the right thing Dave.

Morality and personal standards of decency are probably the only things we have that can't be taxed away, or taken off you by some ambulance chaser on the litigation bandwagon.

Bravo to you I say.
 
Dave, I am surprised you even had to ask ! I would have no business dealings with any person or organisation which promoted terrorists or their cause. In this case the band would promote the IRA's activities as poor oppressed freedom fighters when in reality they are murdering scumbags !!!
 
CarlukeDave said:
Funnily enough, I spoke to a mate about it and he said a similar thing, he asked if I would take photos for a BNP flyer, to which I said never, it's kind of the same thing.

Dave
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Before I became self employed, by boss had me do the following.

1: Design a web site for the BNP aimed at employing kids. The site featured word games and colouring in, all with their "British" theme.

2: Design several logos for marketing campaigns the BNP were running.

3: The last straw. I was forced to "babysit" Nick Griffins daughter for an entire weekend (my wife was NOT amused). Basically there was a murder in Glasgow, racist. Nick and his guys came up to market themselves after the murder. I had baby sitting duty. On the monday, I had to personally take her to "Dad'. He got out a Chrysler Grande Voyager, shook my hand, and thanked me for looking after his girl. She was 14.

I tried to get out of all the situations but was told what it meant on no uncertain terms.

I quit the job a week later.

I sometimes read up on my ex boss. Turns out we was the centre character in a "remove Nick" campaign, and as such, was sacked from the party along with many others. He was very high up when I worked for him.

Anyway, I think you have made the right choice.

Gary.
 
I agree that you've made a wise choice there, Dave and I'm especially pleased to hear that the band themselves respected your reasoning - very encouraging :thumbs:!

It does make me worry a little though, as I've just agreed to have one of my images used (and credited) on a CD cover for an American singer/songwriter, even though the album hasn't been fully recorded yet and I haven't heard it :|. What worries me a little is that the image in question is a negative image of Christ :( (that's 'negative' in the photographic sense of the word ;)) and I have no idea what point he's trying to make with that :shrug:. Never even occured to me to ask ... until now!

I hope that it's not going to upset the God botherers, as I could do without that kind of publicity :D.
 
CarlukeDave said:
Update - I spoke to the person and advised them I wouldn't do it and the reasons. They totally understood and have asked me to do a portrait shoot of their little girl.

They said they respected the fact that I was honest about it rather than just ignoring it!

Dave
Click to expand...

Well done that man:thumbs:
 
EdinburghGary said:
Before I became self employed, by boss had me do the following.

1: Design a web site for the BNP aimed at employing kids. The site featured word games and colouring in, all with their "British" theme.

2: Design several logos for marketing campaigns the BNP were running.

3: The last straw. I was forced to "babysit" Nick Griffins daughter for an entire weekend (my wife was NOT amused). Basically there was a murder in Glasgow, racist. Nick and his guys came up to market themselves after the murder. I had baby sitting duty. On the monday, I had to personally take her to "Dad'. He got out a Chrysler Grande Voyager, shook my hand, and thanked me for looking after his girl. She was 14.

I tried to get out of all the situations but was told what it meant on no uncertain terms.

I quit the job a week later.

I sometimes read up on my ex boss. Turns out we was the centre character in a "remove Nick" campaign, and as such, was sacked from the party along with many others. He was very high up when I worked for him.

Anyway, I think you have made the right choice.

Gary.
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I assume that would be at the time of the Kriss Donald murder Gary? There was a big effort from the communities on the south side of Glasgow to ensure that this horrific incident did not drive a wedge between them, the bnp were up to try and make sure it did!

Thanks for all the replies, I feel I have done the right thing and I'm happy it ended well!

Dave
 
CarlukeDave said:
I assume that would be at the time of the Kriss Donald murder Gary? There was a big effort from the communities on the south side of Glasgow to ensure that this horrific incident did not drive a wedge between them, the bnp were up to try and make sure it did!

Thanks for all the replies, I feel I have done the right thing and I'm happy it ended well!

Dave
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Dunno who it was mate. I remember at the time all the papers going absolutely crazy though, it was very big news.

Gary.
 
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