Esperanto. What a great idea!

Ricardodaforce said:
You're not wrong. I'm surprised though that no one seems to agree that it would be a good thing that their kids finish school trilingual. It can't be too difficult to see the advantage of this surely?
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Sorry missed the tri-lingual bit.

Personally, I see the teaching of French and German in english schools now as traditional and redundant. I would suggest Spanish, as if you know Snish, it covers off Spain, Latin America and most of South America, though if you "know" Spanish, i would suggest you could 90% get by in Portugeuse.

Whist the valencians, catalans and basques will hold onto their language... i.e. It's a culture thing... they will continue to protest for independence, but will it happen? For me a much more important one in the 21st Century is Mandarin Chinese. Like it or not, China is an emerging economy with double digit growth year on year..... Greece is about to go tits up, Spain doesn't seem far behind, nor does most of Eurozone other than Germany and maybe France / Belgium / Holland.

America is pretty screwed at $1 Tn plus in the red, due to the buying of bad debts, the UK is erm .. struggling.... so the emerging economies are Asia, and the ME remains strong, though cannot see the point of learning Arabic....
 
Here's an interesting factoid for you, back in the early days of the Soviet Union they were looking at a future where Marxist-Leninism would take over the entire world.... the language they foresaw as being the language of the unified world was.... French.

I have no idea how they came up with that idea, other than that it used to be the language of the royal courts of pretty much every major power (including Russia).

Either that or they saw the french as a bunch of commies :)
 
desantnik said:
Here's an interesting factoid for you, back in the early days of the Soviet Union they were looking at a future where Marxist-Leninism would take over the entire world.... the language they foresaw as being the language of the unified world was.... French.

I have no idea how they came up with that idea, other than that it used to be the language of the royal courts of pretty much every major power (including Russia).

Either that or they saw the french as a bunch of commies :)
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Ooooo where did you learn that factoid from?
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Do you not think it would benefit our kids if they could speak at least 3 languages on leaving school?
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Personally, I think it would benefit them more if they could actually speak English properly.

That comment is not meant to be either sarcastic or ironic .... just a sad reflection on the linguistic (and other academic) skills of the vast majority of teenages I come into contact with.
 
Bristolian said:
Personally, I think it would benefit them more if they could actually speak English properly.

That comment is not meant to be either sarcastic or ironic .... just a sad reflection on the linguistic (and other academic) skills of the vast majority of teenages I come into contact with.
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I'm an exam invigilator and some of the kids leaving school at 16 are hardly self aware let alone able to speak or even write.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Ooooo where did you learn that factoid from?
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It was from one of very many Soviet history books I have read, off the top of my head I can't remember which though...
 
cambsno said:
No, we should scrap French & German and have Chinese as the first 2nd language, maybe Japanese or one of the Indian languages too. The world is changing and we need to communicate with what will be the main powers then.
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Spot on, I wish that I'd learned Mandarin when I was young enough to do it, instead of just German, French & Italian (OK, the Italian was accidental).

Right now I'm in Shenzhen, right next to Hong Kong, where the local language is Cantonese, but almost everyone also speaks Mandarin. A week ago I was in Shanghai, different dialect there rather than a different language, again almost everyone there can speak Mandarin too. I understand that Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese etc, although different languages, share the same basic written form and can be widely understood. Chinese children learn E2L in school, and I believe that English is the most popular second language by far.

Esperanto never really caught on for a good reason - what's needed worldwide today is English and Mandarin!

When I get back from my business trip I'll be one of the tiny minority who can communicate in more than one language - here, I'm one of the majority. I think that this says a lot about the British educational system...
 
crofter said:
"ey up rad"
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

The idea of a unified language sounds great to me! Loads of benefits and I can't think of any negatives. :thinking:
 
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Garry Edwards said:
When I get back from my business trip I'll be one of the tiny minority who can communicate in more than one language - here, I'm one of the majority. I think that this says a lot about the British educational system...
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The plain truth is, overseas we British are an embarrassment. :(
 
We are no different to others. I see loads of French, German, Spanish etc tourists who could be called that too.
 
I think generalizing is very over rated to be honest. I mean lets face it ALL the Spanish are lazy, French are Bigots, Morrocans are theives...

In what way do you think that the "Brit Abroad" is an embarrassment?
 
Sonriendo said:
I think generalizing is very over rated to be honest. I mean lets face it ALL the Spanish are lazy, French are Bigots, Morrocans are theives...

In what way do you think that the "Brit Abroad" is an embarrassment?
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I did explain this before....

From post 17:

All of my mates (none of them British) speak their mother tongue (obviously) plus Spanish and English and, in some cases, other languages too. Yet the Brits here struggle to ask directions in Spanish.

I also explained that when a child here leaves school they are trilingual. And I don't think that is the case in the UK.

As for your sly dig at me earlier in the thread, here's a little something for you to read about the Spanish Lisp.
 
cambsno said:
We are no different to others. I see loads of French, German, Spanish etc tourists who could be called that too.
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So, you're saying the percentage of Britains that can speak 2 or more languages is the same as the percentage of German that can, Dutch that can etc......?
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I also explained that when a child here leaves school they are trilingual. And I don't think that is the case in the UK.
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Not in my experience - I'm afraid - in this area there are very few fluent Valenciano speakers. Those that speak English to a reasonable standard have all had private lessons - after all, Spain markets itself very heavily to the British. TBH the only people I have known (personally) that have had a great capacity for languages have been (some) Dutch and Belgians. But, lets face it short of Oranjeboom there are very few Dutch words that your average Brit could randomly throw into conversation - and as for Flemmish :thinking:


Ricardodaforce said:
As for your sly dig at me earlier in the thread, here's a little something for you to read about the Spanish Lisp.
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Not intended to be sly - but, that's all down to regional accents - I live on the border of Murcia/Alicante C is pronounced as in the s in sea. And, I think you'll find that it's only the Madrileños that pronounce d as th. It is generally known that the Madrileños don't have the best of accents. Purest Spanish (or castellano) is spoken in the Castilian area.

Ricardodaforce said:
Yet the Brits here struggle to ask directions in Spanish.
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Personally I never had a Spanish lesson at school. French and German both. Therefore I paid for my classes once I knew I would be coming here to live. If however, I was to go to Vietnam for a two week holiday - I wouldn't study vietnamese for 2 or 3 years before hand :shrug: Nor would I hope to be classed as an embarrassment for visiting there.

I did think your comment was particularly biggoted and offensive to be honest.
 
Sonriendo said:
Not in my experience - I'm afraid - in this area there are very few fluent Valenciano speakers. Those that speak English to a reasonable standard have all had private lessons - after all, Spain markets itself very heavily to the British. TBH the only people I have known (personally) that have had a great capacity for languages have been (some) Dutch and Belgians. But, lets face it short of Oranjeboom there are very few Dutch words that your average Brit could randomly throw into conversation - and as for Flemmish :thinking:




Not intended to be sly - but, that's all down to regional accents - I live on the border of Murcia/Alicante C is pronounced as in the s in sea. And, I think you'll find that it's only the Madrileños that pronounce d as th. It is generally known that the Madrileños don't have the best of accents. Purest Spanish (or castellano) is spoken in the Castilian area.



Personally I never had a Spanish lesson at school. French and German both. Therefore I paid for my classes once I knew I would be coming here to live. If however, I was to go to Vietnam for a two week holiday - I wouldn't study vietnamese for 2 or 3 years before hand :shrug: Nor would I hope to be classed as an embarrassment for visiting there.

I did think your comment was particularly biggoted and offensive to be honest.
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I think you're being obtuse. I clearly started that KIDS have to learn the other 2 languages. On leaving school, they are triligual. Hence, many adults on the costa don't speak Valenciano or English because a) they weren't obliged to in school and b) as you well know the regional languages were prohibited under Franco's regime and have since started to re-emerge and flourish. But you go inland to Xixona, Alcoi etc what language do they speak as their first language? Even 5km away, the other day I was having a coffee with a friend in Sant Joan d'Alacant and EVERYONE was speaking Valenciano bar me and my mate.
As for your assertion that only Madriliños pronounce d as th, that certainly isn't the case here in Alacant.
When going on holiday I always have a phrase book and learn the basics, please, thank you, good morning, good evening etc. It's not too much to ask is it?
Was my opinion bigoted and offensive? Maybe, it's no secret I have no time for Brits here. I find them rude, ignorant and uncouth. Maybe that came across in my post.
Lastly, I have never heard a Spaniard refer to Murcia as mursia, I only ever hear murthia.
 
Not really baiting is it? You said as much in your post.

I thought you were ex-pat, why do so many have a chip? The natives are a lot more chilled. :)
 
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ZoneV said:
Not really baiting is it? You said as much in your post.

I thought you were ex-pat, why do so many have a chip? The natives are a lot more chilled. :)
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That's a legitimate question, even if we are going off topic!

Many times over the years (when back in the UK) I heard people moaning about the "bloody foreigners" coming here "taking our jobs" etc. Stuff like "they can't even speak English", "they don't integrate" and nastier stuff. Now I'm in a situation where I can see it from the other side. Where we are the foreigners that don't integrate. Where there are whole communities of British living together in communities, where they don't speak Spanish, they install Sky TV, they read the Sun or Daily Mail, they have little or no contact with the locals, nor do they soak up the wonderful culture that is to be found here.
Many times I've seen them treat waiters rudely because the waiter doesn't speak English, and they of course, can't speak Spanish. It's a great shame.
As I mentioned before, my friends are from all over Europe, they all speak at least 2 other languages and they don't confine themselves to same-type communities. They have open minds. It is possible to live here without being able to speak Spanish, which sadly all too many do. I find it rude and insulting to the nation that they are living in.
The other day I did something horrible. For the 2nd time since I moved here I traveled the short distance up the road to Benidorm, just to take these photos. As I took the 4th image I could hear 2 things; 1, the sound of the surf, 2, a middle aged British bingo caller. This is Spain FFS!
 
Are you sure you don't just enjoy poking old Blighty at every opportunity from the land of sunshine and fiestas?
 
Ricardodaforce said:
That's a legitimate question, even if we are going off topic!

Many times over the years (when back in the UK) I heard people moaning about the "bloody foreigners" coming here "taking our jobs" etc. Stuff like "they can't even speak English", "they don't integrate" and nastier stuff. Now I'm in a situation where I can see it from the other side. Where we are the foreigners that don't integrate. Where there are whole communities of British living together in communities, where they don't speak Spanish, they install Sky TV, they read the Sun or Daily Mail, they have little or no contact with the locals, nor do they soak up the wonderful culture that is to be found here.
Many times I've seen them treat waiters rudely because the waiter doesn't speak English, and they of course, can't speak Spanish. It's a great shame.
As I mentioned before, my friends are from all over Europe, they all speak at least 2 other languages and they don't confine themselves to same-type communities. They have open minds. It is possible to live here without being able to speak Spanish, which sadly all too many do. I find it rude and insulting to the nation that they are living in.
The other day I did something horrible. For the 2nd time since I moved here I traveled the short distance up the road to Benidorm, just to take these photos. As I took the 4th image I could hear 2 things; 1, the sound of the surf, 2, a middle aged British bingo caller. This is Spain FFS!
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Oh dear, the chap's gawn native,
 
Ricardodaforce said:
That's a legitimate question, even if we are going off topic!

Many times over the years (when back in the UK) I heard people moaning about the "bloody foreigners" coming here "taking our jobs" etc. Stuff like "they can't even speak English", "they don't integrate" and nastier stuff. Now I'm in a situation where I can see it from the other side. Where we are the foreigners that don't integrate. Where there are whole communities of British living together in communities, where they don't speak Spanish, they install Sky TV, they read the Sun or Daily Mail, they have little or no contact with the locals, nor do they soak up the wonderful culture that is to be found here.
Many times I've seen them treat waiters rudely because the waiter doesn't speak English, and they of course, can't speak Spanish. It's a great shame.
As I mentioned before, my friends are from all over Europe, they all speak at least 2 other languages and they don't confine themselves to same-type communities. They have open minds. It is possible to live here without being able to speak Spanish, which sadly all too many do. I find it rude and insulting to the nation that they are living in.
The other day I did something horrible. For the 2nd time since I moved here I traveled the short distance up the road to Benidorm, just to take these photos. As I took the 4th image I could hear 2 things; 1, the sound of the surf, 2, a middle aged British bingo caller. This is Spain FFS!
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Dude you've just described the English in Abersoch perfectly! :thumbs:

FWIW in Gwynedd it's compulsory to leave school with 3 languages, not sure abou tthe rest of Wales but have a feeling it's compulsory across the board.

Doesn't mean I can speak Spanish though!
 
Spanish as a second language to English makes more sense in the UK. If you can understand Spanish then you can usually grasp spoken Portuguese and Italian relatively easily.

I did French and Spanish for A-Level. Tried learning a bit of German for a while but didn't like it.
 
srichards said:
Spanish as a second language to English makes more sense in the UK. If you can understand Spanish then you can usually grasp spoken Portuguese and Italian relatively easily.

I did French and Spanish for A-Level. Tried learning a bit of German for a while but didn't like it.
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I can't remember my French. But I found that I could understand a lot of stuff when I went to Paris a few weeks back (see here) because of my Spanish. But then they are both Romance languages.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I think you're being obtuse. I clearly started that KIDS have to learn the other 2 languages. On leaving school, they are triligual.
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Sorry, but I can only speak from what I KNOW here they are not trilingual. There are two families that are my most immediate neighbours

Family A Granny 80+ years can sign her name, but can barely read or write and cannot tell the time. Dad 68(ish) speaks Spanish and a smattering of French as he spent a number of years working there. Mother 66 speaks Spanish, French (because she is :lol:) and a damn good effort with English. Which she learnt at school (so 50ish years ago) and never used it since. Daughter 29 (university educated) very minimal English and from what she hasd told me the same in Valenciano.

Family B Parents speak Spanish only - although he can sing Hey Jude pretty well :lol: Son 27 also university educated (music teacher) speaks Spanish and again very basic English and Valenciano.

They are all OBLIGED to study three languages, but they are certainly not all trilingual. There is a difference.


Ricardodaforce said:
When going on holiday I always have a phrase book and learn the basics, please, thank you, good morning, good evening etc. It's not too much to ask is it?
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And me


Ricardodaforce said:
Was my opinion bigoted and offensive?
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:yes:

Ricardodaforce said:
I find them rude, ignorant and uncouth.
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Generalisation again :nono: This has certainly not been my experience - I suggest you try a different area of Spain.

Ricardodaforce said:
Lastly, I have never heard a Spaniard refer to Murcia as mursia, I only ever hear murthia.
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I said that a Murciano would speak with the "s" not a "Spaniard" - try asking one of your local spannish friends how a Murciano speaks ;) BTW they also sound the S in the Canary Isles - Tenerife in particular.
 
Sonriendo said:
Sorry, but I can only speak from what I KNOW here they are not trilingual. There are two families that are my most immediate neighbours

Family A Granny 80+ years can sign her name, but can barely read or write and cannot tell the time. Dad 68(ish) speaks Spanish and a smattering of French as he spent a number of years working there. Mother 66 speaks Spanish, French (because she is :lol:) and a damn good effort with English. Which she learnt at school (so 50ish years ago) and never used it since. Daughter 29 (university educated) very minimal English and from what she hasd told me the same in Valenciano.

Family B Parents speak Spanish only - although he can sing Hey Jude pretty well :lol: Son 27 also university educated (music teacher) speaks Spanish and again very basic English and Valenciano.

They are all OBLIGED to study three languages, but they are certainly not all trilingual. There is a difference.
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Dame fuerza......

For the third time KIDS HERE ARE OBLIGED TO LEARN 3 LANGUAGES AT SCHOOL. None of the people you mention were educated under the same system that exists NOW. How hard can that be to understand?

And who are you telling me where I should live???? I love it here thank you very much. And whilst we are picking holes, my Spanish friends are Spanish not spannish.

You are offended by what I write. The solution is simple. Put me on ignore :thumbs:
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Incidentally is learning languages in school mandatory in the UK?
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Yes, and it has been for a while. Back when I was at secondary school (about 16 years ago) I did 5 years of French and 2 years of German, no choice in the matter, my wife did it the opposite way around. My eldest is just finishing primary school and has been learning spanish since the 2nd year. However none of us are bilingual in the proper sense of the word.

Ricardodaforce said:
Maybe I'm just a romantic and dreamer!
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No, you're just turning anti-English, it happens to a lot of people who live abroad for a length of time. I have a brother-in-law that's the same but with the Italians instead. Even after being back here for over a decade, Italy still is the best and the British are evil, even all of the cars he's had since coming back have been Italian. It's like a nationality Stockholm Syndrome :lol:

My other brother-in-law not long came back from Spain after working over there for the past 2 years. He took a couple of courses and spoke Spanish quite well, certainly well enough to understand what they were saying about him all the time. After 2 years he didn't have 1 good thing to say about the Spainish. Like you said, probably the same as foreigners feel when they come here to work.

Personally I'm not too worried about my kids being fluent in any other language besides English. It would be nice but IMO there are far more important things for them to learn in their frankly brief time in school.
 
For the third time KIDS HERE ARE OBLIGED TO LEARN 3 LANGUAGES AT SCHOOL. None of the people you mention were educated under the same system that exists NOW. How hard can that be to understand?
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Was THAT not what I said?? :thinking:

Sonriendo said:
They are all OBLIGED to study three languages, but they are certainly not all trilingual. There is a difference.
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See post 70 ;)


I have many native Spanish friends with children aged from 0-30+ There are very very few of them that have the linguistic skills that you claim they should have - I have school aged children here - I can only tell you what I know to be fact from my own experiences. Or do you class being able to say "Hello. How are you?" as being fluent in English.
 
Yes Sarah, it was what you said.......

But hey, Ricardo is "daforce" in all things Iberian, so therefore your opinion is worthless. Allegedly an expert on Spanish cooking, bullfighting, fiestas, you name it........
 
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Guess I must bow down to his greater knowledge then :lol:

I've only lived here for more than 10 years ;-)
 
I'm not sure why but this thread has made me think about Red Dwarf for some reason?
 
I spend a couple of hours each week with my Spanish teachers kids as she wants them to improve their English. They are 8 and 10 and I have seen the books that they are taught English from. All I can say is, that if these books and the Spanish teacher who teaches them English, are giving them their basic grounding in English, then God help them.

Last week in their book was an exercise where they had to ask the question "Do you like ...... chocolate for example" They were told by the teacher that the correct way to answer that was "Yes I can"

Hardly a good grounding for the basics of the English language.
 
swag72 said:
Last week in their book was an exercise where they had to ask the question "Do you like ...... chocolate for example" They were told by the teacher that the correct way to answer that was "Yes I can"
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Better than most of the population of High Wycombe.......
 
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Looking at the figures, apparently there are 8 million speakers of Esperanto. There are 2 billion speakers of English.

So the question is, do we teach 6 billion people a language only 8 million can speak, or do we teach the remaining 4 billion English, knowing the volume of literature currently existing in that language.

There's no competition. Everyone should just learn English.

That's not an English-centric view, it just makes more sense. The infrastructure to teach English is infinitely more robust than any other language.
 
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While I am sure that your comment is tongue in cheek, this is a pretty poor way to introduce kids to the English language I think :) How can you hope to build upon that to gain any sense of English?

My Spanish teacher (who also teaches in schools as well as adult education and her husband teaches in schools) thinks that the English teaching out here is very poor indeed. So much so that they want to send their kids to UK for a year when they are about 14.
 
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