What a load of rubbish.
Sort the planes, ships, agricultural vehicles, HGV's & LGV's first then worry about the cars.
and help to keep the site free for all
Epic news Gov to bring forward ban on new dirty cars to 2030
- Thread starter Mr Bump
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What a load of rubbish.
Sort the planes, ships, agricultural vehicles, HGV's & LGV's first then worry about the cars.
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Monday night I had to park in the car park at the back of the flats. (Around 20 spaces and similar number of garages for 60 flats. The garages are rented, so no guarantee that all garages are used by residents). The only space I could park, as is often the case when i get home from a late shift, is a concrete slope to a double gate allowing access for ride on lawnmowers to cut the grass. Not supposed to park there so have to move it before 8am just incase they turn up to cut the grass. Last night someone else had parked there, so I had to park a few hundred meters down the road. There has been the odd occasion when I have had to park in another road completely because there's no spaces closer.
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Smart money will be buying a diesel just before the cut off date, they will be cheap because they won't be able to sell them after.
Donnie
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Absolutely, I'll be in that queue unless there's a genuine all EV alternative
Donnie
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I'd go on holiday
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Why would you not be able to sell them after? The ban is on new car sales only, isn't it?
cambsno
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But the average is just that - there will be many people doing (like me) 20 miles a day to and from work, but in previous jobs I have easily been doing 100+ to an office a day or when on the road would cover over 1,000 a week. Each space in a car park would need to be converted and in many car parks they would need to reduce the amount of spaces to do that.
If companies do build charging points, why would I spend loads more on a car than I need to (EV v petrol) and then STILL have to pay to fill it?
The final point is that if low on fuel I can fill up in less than 5 minutes. I can also carry a fuel can in case I run out, so I can let my tank get low, but with electric I would need to be keeping it at 50% + as I wouldnt know when the next fill-up point would be plus I may not want to sit around for 30mins while I get a top up. And thats the next point - you can probably fill up 6-10 cars at one pump in the same time you can just top up one EV.
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Yes, what ever date they choose, let's call it Januarý 1st 2030, no new diesel or petrol cars can be sold unless they are a hybrid. So if dealers still have new non hybrid stock, they are left with too choices as the date draws closer, pre register their stock before end of December 2029 or sell off cheaply to clear the stock. Either way there will be bargains to pick up, just as dealers had to do with non compliant vehicles that didn't meet the WLTP emissions when it was implemented.
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wyx087
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Excellent point.
I'd rank it as follow, in order of which ones to go for:
1. domestic heat pump
2. solar hot water
3. solar PV
4. EV (only if you can't cycle)
But in terms of industry maturity is as follow:
1. solar hot water
2. EV (overtook solar PV over last few years)
3. solar PV
....
10. domestic heat pump
I did consider the green home grant for a heat pump, but it's too much outlay for very little usability and functional gain. Unlike changing from ICE to EV.
Changing to EV gives:
- easy home charging
- 1/4 of the fuel cost
- instant throttle response
plus other benefits
You are still thinking with petrol station mentality. Vast majority of cars are parked over 90% of its lifetime. There must be opportunity to charge up during that period without you waiting for it to charge.
Today for example, I had to pop into the office for the afternoon. Didn't charge overnight, had 60% in the battery, drove to work with 10% remaining, plugged it in for a few hours. It'll be almost fully charged when I'm ready to leave. Zero sitting around for it to charge.
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As in my reply, they will be banned from sale. They could only be broken up and sold for spares. So they need to be sold before the cut off date. Hence there will be bargains to be had. The only thing that would prevent that is if all manufacturers were only producing hybrids and ev's long before that date, but they would need to do the same again long before 2035, when hybrid sales are banned.
cambsno
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Thats fine but if a trip to work takes up 50% of your charge I would not want to be at 60% at the start of the journey!
The fact that is getting overlooked is that while cars are parked up a lot, millions cannot charge at home, which is the obvious solution. As someone who used to do 1k a week, how would I cope if I am out on the road all day and am unable to charge at home?
When I worked at Sky, parking was at a premium, so we often had to park on side streets and walk 20 mins to office. How would I charge up for my 100 mile journey each way?
In theory what you say makes a lot of sense but not in practice!
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He has already explained he doesn't have the advantage of home charging or a known charge point wherever he would have to park during the day whilst at work, so making a journey just to charge up and wait 20-30 minutes each time would be his only alternative.
Exactly. People moaning about cars, diesels in particular, should have a look at this aircraft taking off from RAF Fairford.
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Neither.
cambsno
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Correct, well I do now but in previous jobs and homes that would have been the case and that will affect millions of people.
OP
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Smart Car Manufactures and dealers will only be selling hybrid vehicles in 5 years time never mind this made up 10 years people are clinging to.
buying a new diesel in the week before i doubt if you will find dealers with them
buying a new diesel in the week before i doubt if you will find dealers with them
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Sorry, I think we might be talking at cross purposes. When you said they won't be able to sell them after, I thought you meant the person who picked up a bargain, did you mean the manufacturer/dealer?
If so, yes but I'm guessing production of ICE vehicles will slow down well before 2030 and stocks will become extremely low by the time the law comes into force. A clamour for any end of line ICE models may even drive the price up.
wyx087
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As I've said in my first post. EV isn't for everyone. Certainly not now, but in 2030? Same as many people already voiced, I doubt it. This is why fossil fuel cars are still permitted to be sold after 2030.
The biggest issue is parking. If you haven't got guarantee that you will be able to charge at end of your journey, obviously starting a journey with only 10% left at the destination is madness. I agree. But as you get to know your car, you'll know its capability on your usual routes.
According to PodPoint, 60% of household have off street parking. https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/electric-car-no-driveway
So the problem isn't as big as it's been made out by people.
Donnie
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wyx087
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Rising??
Less demand -> falling?
On a related note, I think the drive-as-you-pay tax scheme would work well. People overly concentrate on the money EV drivers must pay but often forget there's no chance for any government to only roll this out on EV. The most likely outcome is to have this rolled out on top of existing running cost. Meaning current 10p per mile ICE vs 2.5p per mile EV could become 15p per mile vs 7.5p per mile.
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That's why I'll start my hunt 6 months before.
nah they will be done by diesel years before that, factories will be changing tooling, new supply chains, you're deluding yourself
cambsno
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That’s still 40% without and the off street parking may not have space for charging, or you may not fit as many cars there.
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Not sure where I could get proper 4* leaded these days.
Yup, rising to push Joe Public towards EVs.
Pay per mile will come along at some point - for motorways anyway.
Donnie
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So, 15p per mile is £1.50 per 10 miles which is what a ICE car gets per litre assuming an average (across all sizes / classes of car) of 45-50mpg which is dearer than current petrol and diesel prices?
Also, Im failing to see the reasoning or justification in taxing the hell out of EV's given the current taxations based on emissions so if EVs are so good for the environment how can taxing them the same as a clean diesel be justified? It seems contradictory to me.
Donnie
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I sincerely doubt that, still got a 60 year old 2 stroke scooter and similar scaremongering has gone on about them for decades with absolutely no action.
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I do think that the drive for ev's is premature as the technology just isn't there, the infrastructure just isn't there and arguably neither are the natural resources plus there's the end of life worries. It'll take a herculean effort to get even a half arsed ev supply, infrastructure and end of life system going to replace the car and how it's used today even if the materials and components can be made and dealt with at end of life in petro/diesel car replacing volumes. I just can't see it working unless there's a real breakthrough and that could happen, I suppose, it's just there's no real sign of it yet. News could come any day though, possibly 
Hybrid is another matter. I'd go for that. Whatever the answer is I don't think it's electric in its current form as the tech is now. It is IMO a non starter as a viable replacement for the car for many many people.
I often think that our society might run a little better if our ruling class were forced out of London and into a small town in the north of England. I'd make them clock on and off, dock their wages if they're late twice per month and make them face a disciplinary if they're late any more often. This might spark the thought that outside of London and the other big cities and outside of the little bubbles these lot live in where people don't have to be anywhere at a specific time and there are no drivers and no consequences there's another way of living that has to be taken into account.
Hybrid is another matter. I'd go for that. Whatever the answer is I don't think it's electric in its current form as the tech is now. It is IMO a non starter as a viable replacement for the car for many many people.
I often think that our society might run a little better if our ruling class were forced out of London and into a small town in the north of England. I'd make them clock on and off, dock their wages if they're late twice per month and make them face a disciplinary if they're late any more often. This might spark the thought that outside of London and the other big cities and outside of the little bubbles these lot live in where people don't have to be anywhere at a specific time and there are no drivers and no consequences there's another way of living that has to be taken into account.
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We looked at hybrids before going all the way to straight EV. At the time, it seemed that any hybrid (that we could afford) needed to run its ICE for a few minutes before it could run on electric only. That would be as long as it would take to get to town. For people living outside town, great but for us, we'd still be belching exhaust fumes both ways. Although walking would be the ideal option, it's not viable a lot of the time due to the amount of kit that often gets taken down/brought home and the hill coming home is a killer! If bicycles weren't so uncomfortable, that is a possibility but not for me.
wyx087
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I calculated based on 10p per mile I got from my 55mpg diesel. For argument sake, I added 5p per mile as the proposed "pay to drive tax".
As said, tax shortfall must be paid somehow. Their current favorite is pay-per-mile. But people (not here, thankfully) tend to point to the new tax scheme and say it'll make running EV price parity to fossil fuels. I'm saying that's simply not true because the tax will be applied across all cars, assuming fossil fuel don't need to pay more for their environmental damage.
On the subject of environmental damage, I can also foresee battery sales tax after they phase out ICE cars. We all know battery contributes to a sizeable amount of the EV lifetime pollution. Putting bigger and bigger battery in EV for "500 miles range 5min 200 miles recharge" is simply stupid, it's like trying to make cars eat grass in 1900's. So I think a sales tax that scales according to battery size makes a lot of sense, pushing for more efficient vehicles.
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cambsno
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It was a 2013 model but had a Lexus 200 hybrid. Thought the hybrid but was rubbish. As soon as you accelerated hard it would switch to petrol, and it would only do electric below 20 or 15 mph. Basically fine for crawling or going round a car park but was not impressed. Things might have changed though.
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I would always expect the petrol engine to kick in when you accelerate hard in a hybrid but i've had my 2019 Ioniq in electric at 75mph on the motorway so that's certainly changed.
omens
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I imagine as demand for fuel drops, the price will follow up until it becomes uneconomical to produce petrol or diesel for vehicle fuel purposes, at which point it will go up again.
When the subject of EV first came up on here, I never thought it was a viable option in the long run - namely to do with convenience, cost etc. It’s very easy for me to refuel my car and I can do a trip down to London, visit the wife’s families, and then head back up all on one tank. I don’t bother stopping on long journeys unless it’s more than 3 hours in which case I might to pop to the loo.
Now I see more EV around, I can see it taking off. The demand for better recharging might drive innovative solutions. Currently, I can stick my iPhone on a pad and it will charge without a plug going into the phone. Similar technology *might* be feasible for cars - park into a slot, and the car will automatically charge up without you needing to do anything. You might be able to swap out an emptyish battery for a new, fully charged one the way you swap out AA batteries in your remote (most likely automated and mechanised).
I think there will be more infrastructure once the Govt and private companies can work out how to make a profit.
Batteries will have to be recycled to minimise the damage done to the environment in terms of mining for precious metals like cobalt, lithium and nickel. There are reports of children being used to mine. There’s also pollution damage with toxic chemicals leaking into local water supplies. So we need better batteries, produced in a way that doesn’t harm the environment.
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Some time ago there was a piece on TV about ev in India and this is exactly what they did. You pulled into the place and they swapped your battery out... It seems so obvious... there'd need to be standard sized for cars, vans, heavy duty lorries etc but I am surprised this doesn't seem to being explored in the west.