EOS7D flash sync, help needed

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turbo

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hey guys, need a little help with my setup as currently bit puzzled,

EOS 7D
420EX strobe
lastolight softbox

ok, decided to move my flashgun into the new softbox for a bit of OCF portrait work, as far as im aware the 7D has a built in transmitter that syncs with my 420EX
camera menu, Flash Control

flash firing Enable

when i try to select ext flash func. i get menu cannot be displayed as flash incompatible.

so in built in flash func i select E-TTL
1st curtain
E-TTL ; evaluative
wireless func, i select external flash
channel 1
firing group i set to A+B+C
exposure comp i leave at 0 for now

problem is when i take a shot internal flash pops up fires then 1 second later my 420ex fires, :shrug:

i am sure the cannon guru's out there will be able to tell me where i'm going wrong here (i hope)

i just want the external to fire, help help.

thx in advance.

Dave
 
The onboard flash will fire an external one Dave but you will need a seperate transmitter as far as I know if you do not want to do it this way.
 
I thought this may be the case, it was the delay that was freaking me out. I have orders some 603's to see if this sorts it out my issues.

Thx
 
The 7D's pop-up should fire a remote E-TTL gun as a slave no problem, but its sensor has got to be able to see the 7D directly, which is often difficult with a softbox, or impossible.

Ways around it, but RF-603 should sort it - put everything in manual.
 
HoppyUK said:
The 7D's pop-up should fire a remote E-TTL gun as a slave no problem, but its sensor has got to be able to see the 7D directly, which is often difficult with a softbox, or impossible.

Ways around it, but RF-603 should sort it - put everything in manual.
Click to expand...

That is true Richard, when I first had the 7D I thought that the external flash could be fired without the need for the internal flash to fire, instead it would just be by a wireless signal being transmitted from the camera :( That is asking for too much I suppose :shrug:
 
You can do it from the 7d you might have to angle the flash gun so that the sensor is pointing more toward the camera.

In the menu you are in there is an option to turn off the internal flash. You have to have it up to enable the flash remote firing but it doesn't have to flash.

I find that using it in manual and adjusting the power your yourself will give more consistent results.

The range is quite good but you have to be able to see some of the sensor. Although having said that I have had it fire from behind me with no problems but I guess that was reflected IR from the white backdrop I was using.

I'm not sure about the delay but try the above and get back to us and I'll have a play with mine see if I can make it do it.

Dan
 
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The Pop-up flash on the 7D is being used to meter the scene for the Flash to fire (ETTL). This is why you see the pre flash from the pop-up and a second delay from the 420ex.

Sorry if this already confirmed above..

You can use Radio triggers but you then lose ETTL which confirms on the flash the correct distance/F-stop to use to create the correct exposure.
This is the exact scenario I have come across since reading Brian Peterson books. (ETTL make life so much easier with off camera flash exposure.)

regards

Dan.
 
E-TTL only really seems to be useful in std situations. I do feel that working flash in manual does give a bit more creative control and understanding.

The fact that cannon states they have a built in transmitter for ex speedlights is perhaps a bit confusing (certainly was for me)

The internal preflash i hope will not happen once set into manual. And yes with the flash in the softbox its not easy to get things aligned so that the speedlight gets a clear view of the camera and moving things around so that it does only defeats the effect i am trying to create.

Once the 603's arrive i will let you know.

Dave
 
Danzaroonie said:
The Pop-up flash on the 7D is being used to meter the scene for the Flash to fire (ETTL). This is why you see the pre flash from the pop-up and a second delay from the 420ex.

Sorry if this already confirmed above..

You can use Radio triggers but you then lose ETTL which confirms on the flash the correct distance/F-stop to use to create the correct exposure.
This is the exact scenario I have come across since reading Brian Peterson books. (ETTL make life so much easier with off camera flash exposure.)

regards

Dan.
Click to expand...

Surely all the flashes need to fire to meter the scene? If not the camera wouldn't know what to set the off camera flash to
 
Actually further to my post above I just noticed that you are using a 420EX, I think that might be your problem, I don't think that is compatible with the 7D's firing system.
 
thanks for that info Dan, tbh i did consider this, and have my beady eye on a secondhand 580EXii which, i hope means i can then use a 580 as master and can assign the 420 to fill in flash, the 420 seems to be a bit more tricky to control manually as it appears to be either E-TTL or full output on its rear controls and control from camera might be an issue if its not compatible.

i tried to speak to someone at cannon uk but they seemed not to be sure if it was compatible or not :thinking:

i was hoping moving to OCF was going to be a cheap n painless transition but looks like its going to cost me a few hundred £ to work as i want it to :'(

Dave
 
The 420 doesn't have a manual mode it only works in ETTL and using FEC +/- or pumps out full power which is why you probably see incompatible in the menu when trying to adjust it. I think the 603s won't work with it as although they'll trigger it, it will always be at full power. Also if you get a 580 it'll trigger it but only with ETTL as it's doing nothing more than what the 7D can do.

On the other hand a 580 can be set in manual remotely from the 7D but so can a 430 EX and they're cheaper :)
 
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Also forgot to say does the 420 fire normally on ETTL mounted on the 7D or delayed, it could be knackered batteries or the tube on the way out.

and finally ;) "when i try to select ext flash func. i get menu cannot be displayed as flash incompatible" Are you trying to setup the flash without it mounted on top? Don't have my 7D to hand but I'm pretty sure this only works with the flash mounted on top and enables you to change the settings via the LCD screen on the camera rather than poke the buttons on the back of the flash it has nothing to do with controlling the flash wirelessly as you can't do that and the system doesn't work like that.
 
u8myufo said:
That is true Richard, when I first had the 7D I thought that the external flash could be fired without the need for the internal flash to fire, instead it would just be by a wireless signal being transmitted from the camera :( That is asking for too much I suppose :shrug:
Click to expand...

7D does have a wireless signal for controlling remote guns, but it uses coded light pulses from the pop-up to do it. They are transmitted as part of the pre-flash procedure which sets exposure and sends command functions at the same time.

It all happens so fast you can't separate the pre-flashes from the main flash visually.

Very good book on all this, with lots of practical stuff as well as describing how it all works - Speedliter's Handbook by Syl Arena http://www.amazon.co.uk/Speedliters...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326203849&sr=1-1
 
I'd agree with calzors second post about external flash setting. I thought that earlier but wasn't entirely sure
 
Hi Guys thanks for all the helpful input,

i will try the 603's in the first instance and see how i get on, but as you say it looks like its flash upgrade time, if the 580exii works out that will prob be a solution but if not, then as mentioned the 430ex seems to be the logical upgrade path, although i like the versatility of the 580 the price is a bit high and by the time i buy a 2 light setup i would probably be into 6-700£ !
which is a bit too much of an outlay for the amount i would use this arrangement.

can anyone else recommend an alternative setup with strobes, ideally a 2 light softbox setup with perhaps 1 additional light for background.

you guys are great and thx for the input.

Dave
 
Does it have to be speedlites? Sounds like with softboxes and background lights a studio lighting kit might be more useful.

Have a look at the thread above / below wherever it is now :)
 
turbo said:
Hi Guys thanks for all the helpful input,

i will try the 603's in the first instance and see how i get on, but as you say it looks like its flash upgrade time, if the 580exii works out that will prob be a solution but if not, then as mentioned the 430ex seems to be the logical upgrade path, although i like the versatility of the 580 the price is a bit high and by the time i buy a 2 light setup i would probably be into 6-700£ !
which is a bit too much of an outlay for the amount i would use this arrangement.

can anyone else recommend an alternative setup with strobes, ideally a 2 light softbox setup with perhaps 1 additional light for background.

you guys are great and thx for the input.

Dave
Click to expand...

If it's manual flash off-camera, there are various ways of doing it much cheaper than a bundle of 580EXII flashes. Yongnuo guns, or studio heads - check the thread linked above.
 
wealthysoup said:
Surely all the flashes need to fire to meter the scene? If not the camera wouldn't know what to set the off camera flash to
Click to expand...

The flash only meters the scene if you have the flash on the hotshoe, use a cord or pocketwizards...otherwise you have to work out the manual flash exposure your self...

turbo said:
thanks for that info Dan, tbh i did consider this, and have my beady eye on a second-hand 580EXii which, i hope means i can then use a 580 as master and can assign the 420 to fill in flash, the 420 seems to be a bit more tricky to control manually as it appears to be either E-TTL or full output on its rear controls and control from camera might be an issue if its not compatible.

i tried to speak to someone at cannon uk but they seemed not to be sure if it was compatible or not :thinking:

i was hoping moving to OCF was going to be a cheap n painless transition but looks like its going to cost me a few hundred £ to work as i want it to :'(

Dave
Click to expand...

The canon 7D and the 580exii both have the in-built wireless features so you can use combine this with the 420 and place the flash in groups. thus allowing for Key and fill light. I must admit I have not put this into practice but theory sounds good....best of luck and let us know how it goes as I would be interested to see if it worked.
Price wise you can just use Radio triggers and cheap flash guns for OCF...you don't have you stick to the canon make to achieve great things..

Dan.
 
well today mr postman arrived with 4x603's and a 430ex and a 580exii,

i will get set up and let you know if the plan comes together or falls in a heap on the floor.

plan for now is to use the 430 and 580 camera left/right in softboxes, this leaves my old 420 free as a rear of model hair light or background wash,

i'll keep you all updated.

Dave
 
Man !! , Cannon dont make multi off camera flash easy,

as you know from reading the above, i am now the proud owner of a 580EXii a 430EX and a 420EX to partner up with my 7D.

i have found a great tutorial that explains the Cannon speedlight system done by Syl Arena (speedlighters handbook fame) but before i link the youtube vid, a few tips to get you started,

if you are trying to figure out Cannon OCF with 1 or more speedlights, then do yourself a favour and throw away the cannon manual :lol:

it may be in English, but makes little sense and reads like its in swahili (apologies to the swahili speakers who may be reading this) it will only make your job harder and to be brutally honest it just left me :bonk:

When Cannon say "wireless" operation please to not confuse this with "radio waves" its a very fundemental point and would be better defined as "flash operation without wires"

for those of you that have a 7D please remember that the inbuilt flash can and does work as a Master, this may be true of some other models but again is important, dont set your 580EXii as OCF master :shake: as a group with more than one master gets borked pretty fast.

ETTL rocks :love:
but experiment in manual mode, as its really really helps you to understand how your light is working.

even in manual mode, with compatible cannon speedlights there is no need to fiddle with the flashgun controls as everything can be controlled from your shooting position using the camera menu, but again the cannon manual will just turn your brain to mush so ignore.

ok enough wordyness, make a warm/cold drink of your choice settle down and watch, please be aware that its a 2hr tutorial but makes the whole system of cannon multi speedlights a great tool to use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk7IRg1ApGE&feature=relmfu

Dave
 
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Danzaroonie said:
The Pop-up flash on the 7D is being used to

You can use Radio triggers but you then lose ETTL which confirms on the flash the correct distance/F-stop to use to create the correct exposure.
This is the exact scenario I have come across since reading Brian Peterson books. (ETTL make life so much easier with off camera flash exposure.)
Dan.
Click to expand...

You don't have to lose ETTL with radio triggers, a few brands offer Ettl support (Pixel, Pocketwizard, Phottix) unfrotunately Yongnuo haven't cracked this yet!

I'd also disagree that ETTL makes everything 'easier', a good grasp of manual flash is a good basis otherwise unless you can think like your camera changes in composition can have serious implications for how your flash output behaves.

I'd also agree that I get quite frustrated by some of the 'features' of Canon OCF, 2nd curtain sync anyone?
 
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