Englands fastest speeders

[odd jim]

Why make a distinction between A roads and motorways if both are the same speed limit?

Most A roads are single carriageways, hense have a 60mph limit, and some are 50 mph, some are 40 mph and some are 30 mph (think of the a30 which has every speed limit except 20 mph), so they don't all have the same speed limit!

Edit - I'm assuming you meant in relation to Vivs post?

 

[Byker28i]

I have to disagree on one point.
5 days a week my commute takes in 2 motorways and 2 major A roads in both directions, and I would say that the majority, whatever the car, are still cruising along at 60/65 mph, and I'd still put that down to optimising fuel consumption.

Obviously there's still the k******d contingent, weaving from lane to lane at high speed; but there's always the hope off seeing them wrapped around a side barrier a few miles on.

I've commuted for 20 years up and down the m4 at around 7am. The majority are doing 80mph with a few doing 85-100mph. No one apart from lorries travels at below 70mph.

Which proves nothing, apart from we have differing views.

Edit: Actually thinking about it - it also shows there are several drivers that believe the speed limit should be higher on motorways.

 

[Byker28i]

Ok, to make this clear, I would be in favour of increasing the speed for motorways only to be in line with France. 80mph in good weather, slower in poor. I don't believe we need to modify others, especially local roads.

However, the AA did some interesting research at Milbrook, showing that fuel use, and hence emissions rose if the speed limit was reduced to 20mph in 30mph zones, or with speedhumps.
http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/news/20mph-roads-emissions.html

Also some interesting research on drivers and speedlimits, showing many older drivers got them wrong.
http://www.theaa.com/newsroom/news-2013/national-speed-limits-aa-populus.html

And just to add further balance, the RAC commissioned a report, highlighting many of the poitns raised in this discussion
http://www.racfoundation.org/assets...oadables/speed_limits-box_bayliss-aug2012.pdf

 

[Bernie174]

but it takes experience, skill, training and practice to do it safely.
On other roads with bends and twists in it.

I'd be interested on your thoughts on the above Bernie

Training to drive at speed is more about how you deal with hazards, which is what bends, curves, junctions change in road conditions etc are. It also applies equally to motorways, the bends aren't so much of an issue, but other things are in that case.
As an example, I do 140 a day on motorways, and it's interesting to watch those who's cars stall if not in lane 2 or 3 if there is one. On the 2 lane section of the M3, you can see around a mile ahead at some points, and see HGV's for example pulling out to the outside lane to overtake. Yet, those in expensive German and Swedish cars and a god given right to drive at 85+ seem surprised when the obvious happens and everything slows down, much heavy breaking. The conclusion is obvious, they aren't looking any further than the car in front. It's way with regular monotony, they end up in a multiple in the outside lane. If it wasn't for the fact that it makes my insurance cost more I'd find it funny.

Apart from the dutch report mentioned above that they say a reduction in accidents due to less overtaking?

Decriminalising an offence? Happened with plenty of other 'offences' in the past.

They say a reduction in accidents, I am not so sure you can apply a reduction in accidents to a reduction in road deaths and an increase in speed limits. Also no one is talking about 'decriminalising' speeding, that is never going to happen.

 

[Cobra]

Training to drive at speed is more about how you deal with hazards, which is what bends, curves, junctions change in road conditions etc are. It also applies equally to motorways, the bends aren't so much of an issue, but other things are in that case.
.

No argument here, as I said a few pages back, Some people just cannot judger speed / distance / and are just plain un-observant.
Classic example, the road I live on, has a very winding road (Built up 30)
People park anywhere, and that includes opposite side turnings, and on the apex of the bend, I kid you not!
Yesterday returning home, a car pulls out from my left, and is turning right.
2 "issues" here, she cut it rather fine to pull out,
as she pulled out obviously she hadn't seen the PARKED car almost opposite the turning, and swereved to miss it.
She obviously handn't seem me either. (Ok 3 issues)
I'd seen her and already worked out was was about to happen in that split second and stopped
So there we were nose to nose ...................

I think what annoys a lot of people is the fact that some are so inconsiderate,
that half the drivers on the road end up "driving" for the other half

Yes I know its all about "defensive" driving.

 

[big soft moose]

All the chavs and barries need educating that playing an xbox driving game doesnt qualify as "training" , nor does watching the fast and the furious

 

[Bernie174]

All the chavs and barries need educating that playing an xbox driving game doesnt qualify as "training" , nor does watching the fast and the furious

And I'm afraid that the BMW/Audi/Volvo owners need to learn that the car is far more capable than their driving ambitions.
The car wont stall if in lane 1.
On the M25, the 2 inside lanes are there to be used, and all traffic does not need to sit in lanes 3 and 4.
The aforementioned car makers do, in spite of opinion held by the owners at great expense put numbers below 70 on the speedometer, and the car will not be irreparably damaged if the speedo points to those numbers.
The dotted lines on the on slip roads to motorways are give way lines, meaning that even German/Swedish cars have to give way, an indicator on these cars does not confer right of way.
That the best way of leaving a motorway is not to drive at 90 until 20 feet from the junction, then swerve across 2 lanes of traffic, causing them to brake.
I could go on...........

 

[big soft moose]

Not relating to speeding but in terms of general motoring offences i'd like to point out that you can't legally tow a f*****g great caravan with a fiesta... particularly not up Haldon hill on the A38

 

[Cobra]

The dotted lines on the on slip roads to motorways are give way lines,

Actually that's another bug bare of mine, with or without indicators showing,
or a specific make of car. And with a "normally flowing" Motorway

Pulling out from the slip road to join traffic, when there is no space.
Traffic 3 a breast, and the car on the slip road, seems to think they will vanish into thin air if they pull out.
And they also normally assume that they can go straight to lane 2 or 3 as well.

Failing to anticipate, some arrogant arse then ends up causing a tail back,
as everyone for a hundred yard and more brakes.

 

[viv1969]

Now, shall we discuss motorcyclists weaving lane to lane at insane speeds, having clearly removed their brains prior to donning thier crash hats?

 

[Cobra]

Now, shall we discuss motorcyclists weaving lane to lane at insane speeds, having clearly removed their brains prior to donning thier crash hats?

Not yet, we haven't quite finished taking the urine from the German (or Swedish) car drivers.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Now, shall we discuss motorcyclists weaving lane to lane at insane speeds, having clearly removed their brains prior to donning thier crash hats?

If they wipe themselves out...so what, keeps the numbers down.

 

[viv1969]

Not yet, we haven't quite finished taking the urine from the German (or Swedish) car drivers.

 

[Byker28i]

Now, shall we discuss motorcyclists weaving lane to lane at insane speeds, having clearly removed their brains prior to donning thier crash hats?

I commute on one every day. We can discuss that only if we start first with the drivers that don't pay attention, despite bright headlights, clothing etc. Trust me, you don't know defensive driving until you use a motorbike.

 

[viv1969]

I commute on one every day. We can discuss that only if we start first with the drivers that don't pay attention, despite bright headlights, clothing etc. Trust me, you don't know defensive driving until you use a motorbike.

I'm sorry, but if I'm in lane 3 of the motorway, and wish to pull back into lane 2, I should not have to keep an eye out for some numb-nuts biker overtaking me on the inside between lanes 2 and 3.
I'm not saying you're that kind of rider, but the roads are full of riders who appear to believe that a) they're indestuctable and b) I should spend my life looking out for them.

 

[Byker28i]

Ok so bikers, the last serious study was done in 2011.

There were 362 motorcycle users killed in 2011, a 10% decrease compared to 2010 and in line with the trend for motorcycle fatalities, however the number of users reported as seriously injured increased by 10% to 5,247.

48% of crashes between motorcycles and cars were the result of the car driver failing to look properly.

Clarke also did a very in depth study in 2004 looking at age groups and causes. I believe that was something like 41% of fatalities were caused by the vehicle leaving the road, through whatever reason, which is why biker groups are so opposed to the amounts of road furniture. next time you are driving, look at how many posts holding up signs, lights etc there are by the roadside.

There's been recent European research that concluded that nearly 70% of motorcycle accidents involved a car, lorry or bus and that approximately 55% of accidents occured at junctions, mostly due to the driver failing to see the motorcyclist.

This is where defensive driving really comes in. With the state of the roads and poor repairs, drivers cosseted in their comfy security blanket, sound drowned by the stereo, you really have to have your wits about you. Filtering past traffic has to be done carefully as you observe drivers more concerned with their phones, or women playing with their hair, or more interestingly the number of people smoking weed. It's really easy to smell as you pass ont he bike.

If anyones interested in Clarkes report


http://speedcamerareport.co.uk/dft_motorcycle_accidents.pdf


Clarke also did a report in 2005 for work related RTA's
http://www.orsa.org.uk/guidance/pdfs/indepth_study_work_related_road_accidents.pdf

 

[Nod]

Not relating to speeding but in terms of general motoring offences i'd like to point out that you can't legally tow a f*****g great caravan with a fiesta... particularly not up Haldon hill on the A30

MY car would have a problem if it was trying to get up Haldon on the A30 - Haldon's on the A38...

Now, shall we discuss motorcyclists weaving lane to lane at insane speeds, having clearly removed their brains prior to donning thier crash hats?

Some do, most don't (weave, not remove their brains!!!), likewise, travelling at "insane speeds".

I'm sorry, but if I'm in lane 3 of the motorway, and wish to pull back into lane 2, I should not have to keep an eye out for some numb-nuts biker overtaking me on the inside between lanes 2 and 3.
I'm not saying you're that kind of rider, but the roads are full of riders who appear to believe that a) they're indestuctable and b) I should spend my life looking out for them.

a) They tend to self select - Darwinism. b) Yes. You should be aware of everything going on around you at all times, even if they are driving/riding like tw@s.

 

[Bernie174]

I commute on one every day. We can discuss that only if we start first with the drivers that don't pay attention, despite bright headlights, clothing etc. Trust me, you don't know defensive driving until you use a motorbike.

Not always. I have to say though, that too many people on motorbikes need to learn it as well. It's surprising they don't display some more defensive driving, given the stakes when it goes wrong for them.

 

[viv1969]

MY car would have a problem if it was trying to get up Haldon on the A30 - Haldon's on the A38...



Some do, most don't (weave, not remove their brains!!!), likewise, travelling at "insane speeds".



a) They tend to self select - Darwinism. b) Yes. You should be aware of everything going on around you at all times, even if they are driving/riding like tw@s.

To be fair Nod, I never said all now did I?

And nor did I mention anything about not being aware.
Using the example I gave, I've had that happen more than once, where the rider nipping between lanes must have been doing a ton.
All I'm saying is that those riders shouldn't be shocked when they wind up being scraped up with a spatula.

And no, I'm not in the least bit "anti-bike". Husband rides a Triumph.

 

[Byker28i]

And I'm afraid that the BMW/Audi/Volvo owners need to learn that the car is far more capable than their driving ambitions.

Some interesting figures from 2013
Thames Valley Police recorded 789 crashes involving its patrol cars, with over half of the incidents deemed the fault of the police driver at a cost of £396,000
Surrey Police logged 477 incidents ranging from serious collisions to windscreen chips with repairs to vehicles costing £374,058
Hampshire did far better,with 413 crashes although 300 of the crashes were caused by Hampshire Police personnel, causing damage which cost the force a total of £172,371
Worse was a police officer was killed in one of their crashes.

At least Hampshire defended theirs, the others refused to comment. Our fleet of vehicles covered 15.8 million miles in all weather conditions in 2012/13 but were involved in an incident where blame can be attributed to the police driver once every 53,000 miles. Although the vast majority of incidents were minor collisions, any incident involving a police vehicle is regrettable.'

The interesting bit I found there was One accident every 53,000 miles. That must work out about the same or worse than an average driver? Ok they often drive in different circumstances, but have extra training to offset that.
Which seems to indicate that human nature is the same and mistakes will be made?


having said all that - the investigation that goes on is quite intensive: http://www.gloucestershire.police.uk/foi/Information Classes/Policies/item11331.pdf

 

[Byker28i]

Not always. I have to say though, that too many people on motorbikes need to learn it as well. It's surprising they don't display some more defensive driving, given the stakes when it goes wrong for them.

Several types of bikers. The worse has to be the sunday fair weather types who go out in groups. There's the keep up mentality, meaning that extra risks get taken further down the line when overtaking or playing catch up.
Or the inexperienced, be it young riders or born again bikers.

Most of the mature bikers have got that way by being careful (or lucky)

 

[Byker28i]

I'm sorry, but if I'm in lane 3 of the motorway, and wish to pull back into lane 2, I should not have to keep an eye out for some numb-nuts biker overtaking me on the inside between lanes 2 and 3.
I'm not saying you're that kind of rider, but the roads are full of riders who appear to believe that a) they're indestuctable and b) I should spend my life looking out for them.

I hope you do pay attention to other road users. That rather sounds like you believe you shouldn't bother.

 

[viv1969]

I hope you do pay attention to other road users. That rather sounds like you believe you shouldn't bother.

*Sigh*.....yes I do. I am referring to the minority of two-wheeled travellers who behave in a certain way whilst riding, and then blame the car driver when they get wiped up.

 

[SFTPhotography]

There are two types of biker, bold bikers and old bikers, but you never got bold old bikers.

A bike is capable of phenonemal agility, braking and accereration. What may look like suicide may be totally safe on a sorted bike with a skillful rider.

 

[DorsetDude]

A bike is capable of phenonemal agility, braking and accereration.

Especially the Japanese ones...

 

[Byker28i]

5 days a week my commute takes in 2 motorways and 2 major A roads in both directions, and I would say that the majority, whatever the car, are still cruising along at 60/65 mph, and I'd still put that down to optimising fuel consumption.

Obviously there's still the k******d contingent, weaving from lane to lane at high speed; but there's always the hope off seeing them wrapped around a side barrier a few miles on.

I'm sorry, but if I'm in lane 3 of the motorway, and wish to pull back into lane 2, I should not have to keep an eye out for some numb-nuts biker overtaking me on the inside between lanes 2 and 3.
I'm not saying you're that kind of rider, but the roads are full of riders who appear to believe that a) they're indestuctable and b) I should spend my life looking out for them.

... then blame the car driver when they get wiped up.

So from this can I take it you're in the outside lane at 60/65mph, not paying attention because you don't think you have to, then when a collision occurs blames the bike rider who possible has become frustrated trying to get you to observe him and move over?

Sorry - devils advocate Of course you're not, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who take this attitude.

I'm not saying it's right, but we've already established that many people exceed the speed limit on dual carriageways and motorways and lets be honest the majority by about 10mph. There's also a fair number who don't look, don't pull over, often in lane 2 or 3 of the motorway, hence you sometimes see frustrated people go around them, often in lane 1. It's not legal but it happens.

 

[TopBanana]

A bike is capable of phenonemal agility, braking and accereration. What may look like suicide may be totally safe on a sorted bike with a skillful rider.

That may well be true (and true of good car drivers) but you've also got to take into account that most of the time you are surrounded by other road users who may not have a well maintained vehicle or any driver skill or even be paying attention to what they're doing - it's everybody else that makes driving dangerous!

 

[Byker28i]

There are two types of biker, bold bikers and old bikers, but you never got bold old bikers.

A bike is capable of phenonemal agility, braking and accereration. What may look like suicide may be totally safe on a sorted bike with a skillful rider.

Acceleration yes. What's often perceived as speeding is actually the bikes ability to get to the speed limit very quicky (2.5 secs for my bike). Agility doesn't come into it as a car will easily out corner a bike, have superior road holding and braking and with the state of the roads currently it's a brave biker who tries to get anywhere near the limit of adhesion. What a bike has is size on it's side for filtering.

 

[viv1969]

So from this can I take it you're in the outside lane at 60/65mph, not paying attention because you don't think you have to, then when a collision occurs blames the bike rider who possible has become frustrated trying to get you to observe him and move over?

Sorry - devils advocate Of course you're not, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who take this attitude.

I'm not saying it's right, but we've already established that many people exceed the speed limit on dual carriageways and motorways and lets be honest the majority by about 10mph. There's also a fair number who don't look, don't pull over, often in lane 2 or 3 of the motorway, hence you sometimes see frustrated people go around them, often in lane 1. It's not legal but it happens.

Absolutely.
I'm certainly not having a go at bikers in general, far from it.
It's just that small small contingent who ride in a fashion that beggars belief sometimes.
I suspect many of these are riders of "a certain age" who found themselves with a little disposable income, took the fast track to a full licence and then bobbed out to get themselves a Ducatti Superleggera (other bikes are available ) in a vain attempt to recapture their youth.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Acceleration yes. What's often perceived as speeding is actually the bikes ability to get to the speed limit very quicky (2.5 secs for my bike). Agility doesn't come into it as a car will easily out corner a bike, have superior road holding and braking and with the state of the roads currently it's a brave biker who tries to get anywhere near the limit of adhesion. What a bike has is size on it's side for filtering.

Direction changing, they can change direction very quickly i.e swap lanes. I'd have thought due to mass, or a lack of it, a bike would outbrake most cars. Re road holding, I've nearly rear ended a bike, they don't corner well but accelerate ever so well.

 

[Cobra]

Sorry - devils advocate Of course you're not, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who take this attitude.

I suppose in the car drivers mind, is that no "undertaking" rule.
So they eventually leisurely pull back into lane 2, without even considering they maybe something there, be it car or bike.
As I said 50% (guess work) of the drivers / riders get very frustrated at having to drive for the other 50% as well as themselves

it's a brave biker who tries to get anywhere near the limit of adhesion.

Absolutely, the worse that happens in a car is a slight sideways drift or a tail flick.
Both are totally undesirable on a bike.

 

[big soft moose]

Absolutely.
I'm certainly not having a go at bikers in general, far from it.
It's just that small small contingent who ride in a fashion that beggars belief sometimes.
I suspect many of these are riders of "a certain age" who found themselves with a little disposable income, took the fast track to a full licence and then bobbed out to get themselves a Ducatti Superleggera (other bikes are available ) in a vain attempt to recapture their youth.

that - if I'm slowing down and indicating left ( in a truck pulling a trailer load of logs) it means I'm about to turn left - it doesn't mean "hey now would be a great time to pass me on the inside" ... to this day I still don't know how I missed him ... I do know the police weren't best impressed about the logs all over the 3052

 

[Byker28i]

Direction changing, they can change direction very quickly i.e swap lanes. I'd have thought due to mass, or a lack of it, a bike would outbrake most cars. Re road holding, I've nearly rear ended a bike, they don't corner well but accelerate ever so well.

Nah. I've a ZZR1200, big tyres, big brakes, but it's only 280-300Kg with me on it and two smallish contact patches. It's not advisable to lock the brakes on a bike. A car has more weight and a significantly bigger contact area on the tyres, which generally means it can stop quicker, especially as many have abs now. I'd never compete with a car on braking, there's no point when you use the acceleration instead.

 

[Byker28i]

So, in summary after many pages we have,

Some road users are idiots (doesn't matter what vehicle), some are great drivers (or consider themselves better than average). Some speed occasionally, some regularly, some slightly, some excessively, some don't at all. Oh and the police fall into the same categories. Some are better drivers, some aren't

And there are many, many statistics that can prove we shouldn't reduce the speed limit in some areas, could increase it in others but due to human nature probably shouldn't.

I guess we just continue in the current as the easiest compromise, which is probably why the Govt stopped thinking about this

 

[Bernie174]

The interesting bit I found there was One accident every 53,000 miles. That must work out about the same or worse than an average driver? Ok they often drive in different circumstances, but have extra training to offset that.
Which seems to indicate that human nature is the same and mistakes will be made?

It's impossible to come to that conclusion, because you are comparing 2 different things.

As I have said previously, an accident to a Police vehicle is not the same as an accident as defined for the rest of the population, ie S25 RTA.
So for example, if you come back to your vehicle parked in your drive, and find a scratch on the side, it is not an accident, if I went to a police car in the station yard, and found the same scratch, it is reported as a POLACC. I had a touch in the station yard when I was a very young policeman, it was not only a POLACC, it was down to me. That sort of thing is counted in the stats you mention, it's not for everyone else.
The figures you quote don't just involve police cars either, the numbers include all Police Officers and Civvies employed by the Police Authority. So, it doesn't mean what we usually mean by Police Cars, it includes the dispatch van, civvies Crime Scene vans, CID officers using their own cars on duty, many of whom are not trained drivers.
You also assume that Hants Police miles per accident are representative of every force or the Country. Hants isn't a very big force, TVP is, in terms of manpower and area, I doubt if the 53,000 number applies to TVP, or the Met for example.
You need to be very careful basing an accusation of driver standards based on the figures you quoted. they don't mean what you have presented them as, and without a full picture of what's included your assumptions are flawed.

 

[SFTPhotography]

One accident for 53k miles driving is pretty poor - I really doubt joe public ding their cars as much as that

 

[Gaz J]

I'm sorry, but if I'm in lane 3 of the motorway, and wish to pull back into lane 2, I should not have to keep an eye out for some numb-nuts biker overtaking me on the inside between lanes 2 and 3.
I'm not saying you're that kind of rider, but the roads are full of riders who appear to believe that a) they're indestuctable and b) I should spend my life looking out for them.

And the roads are also full of asshole car drivers who think that the correct way to overtake is by not using indicators or if they do bother to use them think an indicator has some magic power of suddenly making a space appear. Not that I'm saying that you're that kind of driver!

 

[Byker28i]

Bernie - if they were minor dinks then the figures for repairs would be lower? It's difficult to find any figures published as the police don't reveal them unless you have a freedom of information request, and even then some decline through 'operational necessity'. I thought Hants would be a representative force as it has the required mix of roads, large amounts or rural, dual carriageway and motorway.

 

[Byker28i]

One accident for 53k miles driving is pretty poor - I really doubt joe public ding their cars as much as that

Different driving though at times from active service vehicles, although if Bernie says it includes lots of other vehicles not involved in chases etc then that must feature into the figures.

 

[Byker28i]

Speakign of idiots: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...njured-in-clapton-smash-with-car-9481901.html