So, you pay god knows how much money, to meet up with other like minded people, dressed up in the same tribal kit to fight other idiots and you think this has nothing to do with football?
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England football supporters again bring shame!
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Bobsyeruncle
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One thing that sometime confuses me about the idiot football fans is their age. Some are in their late 20s, or 30s or even 40s - haven't they grown up?
Many years ago I used to go to a few, as it was then, Five Nations games. One in particular I was sitting next to some French supporters. We swapped drinks and congratulated each other when there was good play or a score from either side, shook hands at the end (France won) and had a great day.
I also recall going to a Rugby League Challenge Cup final at Wembley. I thought a sign in a bar was interesting. It said that drinks were no allowed in stadium during football matches.
Dave
Many years ago I used to go to a few, as it was then, Five Nations games. One in particular I was sitting next to some French supporters. We swapped drinks and congratulated each other when there was good play or a score from either side, shook hands at the end (France won) and had a great day.
I also recall going to a Rugby League Challenge Cup final at Wembley. I thought a sign in a bar was interesting. It said that drinks were no allowed in stadium during football matches.
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I've been to a few Challenge Cup finals (and Grand Finals) and what struck me was the number of neutral fans (many bought their tickets before it was known who'd been playing) who were there and wearing their replica shirts.
Jelster
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Like you said, it's tribal, it's not about the sport of football. Football just makes the tribalism easier. I have worn my sides shirts to games while I had a season ticket, wouldn't dream of going without it. That doesn't make me a violent idiot does it... It's already in people, but the alcohol and (possibly) drugs before the game bring it out. Like I have said before, I've sat down in a cafe with rival supporters before now without issue. Football is merely an excuse, just like it was all the way back to the 70's.
I deplore the violence, the thuggery and the sheer stupidity of some of these so called fans, but football is the excuse, not the reason.... There seems to be something inside some British men that seems to drive this tribal "must fight" attitude we don't seem to see in the rest of Europe. I have no idea why, but it just seems that whatever it is, alcohol acts as a catalyst and the bomb goes off. Look outside any nightclub on a Friday or Saturday night, it's there in front of you...
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This ^^^
Or do people really think that, if football didn't exist, there would be be no thugs?
LCPete
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Yes I do know what you mean there’s something about men in the UK that you just don’t see anywhere else I’ve been abroad a few times and always felt safe wherever I went but in the UK it can be different
I don’t understand why but football seems to attract these types
Retune
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One of the things I like about rugby is that the fans aren't segregated, which makes it harder to be tribal. When the idea of separate seating to 'improve the atmosphere' at the World Cup was floated a few years ago, fans shot it down immediately and it was never mentioned again.
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I'd happily test that theory
Bobsyeruncle
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I thought for a minute you said bad diving...It seems its also responsible for bad driving
Jelster
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The colours of tribalism. Maybe we need to go back to conscription, let every man have a taste of what it's really like. I'd wager that most would s*** themselves....
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Look again.
Jelster
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You need to be more specific. Are you saying that it's not "British" men (It's not only the English....) or are you saying that it also happens in other countries? If that's the case then we are not alone with this problem, but we certainly have a very bad case of it!
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I haven’t seen any video yet of Italians rampaging in Rome.
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I knew what the reaction of some in the media and social media would be if this happened and that was instantly confirmed when I turned on the radio and TV with people talking about widespread repeated racism and calling for England to be banned from holding future competitions.
Yes, hooliganism and racist abuse is awful and should be condemned by anyone with even half a functioning brain and those perpetrating these awful things should be brought to justice if at all possible. I say if at all possible as last time racist online abuse came to the fore at least some of it was from people outside of the UK and early reports seem to be confirming that this is the case this time too. I think people need to resist the urge to think this is everyone's experience in racist hooligan infested England or that this is a uniquely English problem as it clearly is not. As I've said before in threads on these issues if you want to see real discrimination and racism get out in the world and you'll see it. In some places it's the norm.
On the physical violence you're kidding yourself if you see this as a uniquely UK issue. I don't follow football all that much but it should still be possible to recollect violence in France, Spain, Italy and more including organised gangs from some countries and even the targeting of England fans by foreign law enforcement which lead to complaints from the UK government. I remember that and that's one thing that I just can't see happening in England.
My hope is that those involved in physical violence can be identified and processed through the system and that those UK based hate posters can also be identified and likewise prosecuted. I think if we could even do that without the pearl clutching outrage and convincing ourselves that this is a uniquely English problem, all the better.
Having said all that some of the violence looks to me to be at the handbags level.
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Maybe not this time, thank Gosh but I do remember reading in the past about English and Scottish fans being stabbed in Rome.
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I thought for a minute you said bad diving...
They're bringing Tom Daley into the coaching team next season...
I am born here but have Italian parents, I could not give a toss about football, never have, never will.
I can't understand how it can consume people the way it does, whether it drives them to violence and vandalism or completely ruins their lives if they loose.
There have been so many people saying 'well done' to me today! I point out that I wasn't playing and would rather watch my dog chuck his dinner up and re-eat it than watch a match.
One middle age fat bloke (with a very strained England shirt on) said to me 'well done, I'm devastated, not sure how I am going to get over this'. I was speechless, couldn't quite believe his reaction, like he had lost a close family member.
My neighbour who is usually quite normal had mates round, drinking and chanting 'Its coming home' at the top of their voices every 15 minutes, three lions, vindaloo and the national anthem on repeat full blast through speakers in his garden. Their kids running round screaming, it seemed like the normal social etiquette had been cancelled for the evening!
I personally am glad it is all over, hopefully the spread of covid will wind down now there are not crowds meeting up behind giant screens shouting and hugging. There are a lot of businesses relying on the numbers coming down, possibly having sacrificed the gains we have made because of a football match seems like a bad trade off to me.
T
I can't understand how it can consume people the way it does, whether it drives them to violence and vandalism or completely ruins their lives if they loose.
There have been so many people saying 'well done' to me today! I point out that I wasn't playing and would rather watch my dog chuck his dinner up and re-eat it than watch a match
.One middle age fat bloke (with a very strained England shirt on) said to me 'well done, I'm devastated, not sure how I am going to get over this'. I was speechless, couldn't quite believe his reaction, like he had lost a close family member.
My neighbour who is usually quite normal had mates round, drinking and chanting 'Its coming home' at the top of their voices every 15 minutes, three lions, vindaloo and the national anthem on repeat full blast through speakers in his garden. Their kids running round screaming, it seemed like the normal social etiquette had been cancelled for the evening!
I personally am glad it is all over, hopefully the spread of covid will wind down now there are not crowds meeting up behind giant screens shouting and hugging. There are a lot of businesses relying on the numbers coming down, possibly having sacrificed the gains we have made because of a football match seems like a bad trade off to me.
T
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I know that Italy has it's problems, especially with the Juventus "Ultras". I know a chap that was part of an organised football gang in the early 80's. He was in Scotland. I've been chased by a bunch of Milwall fans when I lived in Kent and was on my way to see Gillingham. Luckily, in those days I was pretty fast on my feet!!
lindsay
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@Tdes you took the words from my own mouth, couldn't agree more with everything you wrote.
It isn't just an English problem, it has been particularly bad in Russia, Turkey and at one time I believe certain Italian clubs had the issue. It is however a cultural issue not directly related to football, it is indeed an excuse. This was something studied a lot for my Sociology degree in the 90's. People like to "belong" and unfortunately group hysteria occurs at a certain tipping point. The hysteria over Diana's death is a good example of non-violent tribalistic response, but football attracts a more physical behaviour because it is intrinsically tribal with chanting and dancing being normal. It's like someone particularly questionable acts as a shaman directing the rest to louder and more powerful acts of devotion. Devotion is encouraged by the clubs, by the media, and certain behaviour is so expected that it becomes self-fulfilling and inevitable. So yet again, I think much blame can be placed on the media for normalising such behaviour and giving it airtime.
It isn't just an English problem, it has been particularly bad in Russia, Turkey and at one time I believe certain Italian clubs had the issue. It is however a cultural issue not directly related to football, it is indeed an excuse. This was something studied a lot for my Sociology degree in the 90's. People like to "belong" and unfortunately group hysteria occurs at a certain tipping point. The hysteria over Diana's death is a good example of non-violent tribalistic response, but football attracts a more physical behaviour because it is intrinsically tribal with chanting and dancing being normal. It's like someone particularly questionable acts as a shaman directing the rest to louder and more powerful acts of devotion. Devotion is encouraged by the clubs, by the media, and certain behaviour is so expected that it becomes self-fulfilling and inevitable. So yet again, I think much blame can be placed on the media for normalising such behaviour and giving it airtime.
OP
Box Brownie
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It struck me listening to the news this evening that the way things are reported leaves a lot to be desired!
Why do I say that? Well what adjectives would you use to describe about being beaten in a football match or indeed any sporting competition?
The reporter logically said the players are (would be?) upset but instead of leaving it at that adjective.....he said upset and angry! My question is, why angry?
Because of the tribal nature of football the use of the word angry IMO is a very poor choice of words....because there will be a faction of supporters who interpret that anger as theirs and perhaps subconsciously engage with that "anger" as they are the ones to express it as the players are not able to do so!!!
PS I don't ever recall the likes of Mo Farah, Lewis Hamilton, Roger Federer or any other non footballing sports men & women who failed to win a competition, being described as "angry". As has been said on many occasions 'words matter, choose your words carefully....'
Why do I say that? Well what adjectives would you use to describe about being beaten in a football match or indeed any sporting competition?
The reporter logically said the players are (would be?) upset but instead of leaving it at that adjective.....he said upset and angry! My question is, why angry?
Because of the tribal nature of football the use of the word angry IMO is a very poor choice of words....because there will be a faction of supporters who interpret that anger as theirs and perhaps subconsciously engage with that "anger" as they are the ones to express it as the players are not able to do so!!!
PS I don't ever recall the likes of Mo Farah, Lewis Hamilton, Roger Federer or any other non footballing sports men & women who failed to win a competition, being described as "angry". As has been said on many occasions 'words matter, choose your words carefully....'
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joxby
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Maybe they're upset at the loss and angry about the abuse / racial abuse directed at them.
Regardless, our cretinous media do try to generate conditions that create conflict, conflict sells.
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I am born here but have Italian parents, I could not give a toss about football, never have, never will.
I can't understand how it can consume people the way it does, whether it drives them to violence and vandalism or completely ruins their lives if they loose.
There have been so many people saying 'well done' to me today! I point out that I wasn't playing and would rather watch my dog chuck his dinner up and re-eat it than watch a match
One middle age fat bloke (with a very strained England shirt on) said to me 'well done, I'm devastated, not sure how I am going to get over this'. I was speechless, couldn't quite believe his reaction, like he had lost a close family member.
My neighbour who is usually quite normal had mates round, drinking and chanting 'Its coming home' at the top of their voices every 15 minutes, three lions, vindaloo and the national anthem on repeat full blast through speakers in his garden. Their kids running round screaming, it seemed like the normal social etiquette had been cancelled for the evening!
I personally am glad it is all over, hopefully the spread of covid will wind down now there are not crowds meeting up behind giant screens shouting and hugging. There are a lot of businesses relying on the numbers coming down, possibly having sacrificed the gains we have made because of a football match seems like a bad trade off to me.
T
I also have no interest in football - though many years ago I saw Zinedine Zidane on TV and he was superb, but I can't understand the reaction of some folks - adults crying profusely because their team has lost!
As you say what would be their reaction if a family member had died, or perhaps their home had been destroyed?
Dave
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Because you've never been a fan. When I've been at a game watching my team get humiliated by another London club, it's painful, the hurt is almost personal. But, you would have to be a true fan to understand that.
OP
Box Brownie
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I take your point......but the context of the news reporter comments seemed to be entirely in regard to the final score and the 'loss of the win'.
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As a non-football watcher I read that the players missed three penalty goals but I was puzzled as in the one they kept showing in the news the goal wasn’t missed but saved. It seems to me only one was missed when the ball hit the goal post, which is also not technically a miss I guess.
In any case it seems to me the game was a draw, so I was pleased to read :
A penalty shootout is staged cruelty that should be beneath the dignity of team sport. It degrades a noble game to the toss of a dice. If more goals are wanted, then widen the goalposts. Otherwise honour the result: a sport that cannot accept a draw is not a sport, it is showbusiness.
My bold
www.theguardian.com
In any case it seems to me the game was a draw, so I was pleased to read :
A penalty shootout is staged cruelty that should be beneath the dignity of team sport. It degrades a noble game to the toss of a dice. If more goals are wanted, then widen the goalposts. Otherwise honour the result: a sport that cannot accept a draw is not a sport, it is showbusiness.
My bold
Boris Johnson's Euros bandwagon-jumping won't get him far | Simon Jenkins
The dignity of England’s team was in marked contrast to Johnson’s cynical opportunism, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins
www.theguardian.com
OP
Box Brownie
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As a non-football watcher I read that the players missed three penalty goals but I was puzzled as in the one they kept showing in the news the goal wasn’t missed but saved. It seems to me only one was missed when the ball hit the goal post, which is also not technically a miss I guess.
In any case it seems to me the game was a draw, so I was pleased to read :
A penalty shootout is staged cruelty that should be beneath the dignity of team sport. It degrades a noble game to the toss of a dice. If more goals are wanted, then widen the goalposts. Otherwise honour the result: a sport that cannot accept a draw is not a sport, it is showbusiness.
My bold
Boris Johnson's Euros bandwagon-jumping won't get him far | Simon Jenkins
The dignity of England’s team was in marked contrast to Johnson’s cynical opportunism, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins
I surmise that the difference between a 'miss' and a 'save' is primarily semantics but as this is football........maybe also depends on which end of the telescope you are viewing it through. That of course presupposes that the viewer has said telescope and knows how to use it!
The Ultras. Football violence isn't just an English thing.
Italian hooligan's agonising last moments after being shot in head in Rome park
Fabrizio Piscitelli was the face of Italian hooliganism for decades, and his life was cut short when he was shot in the head - in a park not too far from Lazio's stadium - in 2019
Beyond the violence, the shocking power the ultras wield over Italian football | Tobias Jones
Last week’s thuggery in Liverpool highlighted a subculture with a dark and deadly side
www.theguardian.com
Jelster
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As a non-football watcher I read that the players missed three penalty goals but I was puzzled as in the one they kept showing in the news the goal wasn’t missed but saved. It seems to me only one was missed when the ball hit the goal post, which is also not technically a miss I guess.
In any case it seems to me the game was a draw, so I was pleased to read :
A penalty shootout is staged cruelty that should be beneath the dignity of team sport. It degrades a noble game to the toss of a dice. If more goals are wanted, then widen the goalposts. Otherwise honour the result: a sport that cannot accept a draw is not a sport, it is showbusiness.
My bold
Boris Johnson's Euros bandwagon-jumping won't get him far | Simon Jenkins
The dignity of England’s team was in marked contrast to Johnson’s cynical opportunism, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins
In my opinion, any professional player would be expected to hit a dead ball from 12 yards on target, especially without pressure from defenders. Whether they can get that ball past a decent goalkeeper is a different issue.
When I use to coach a boys team, I would put the smaller 7 a side goals inside the normal goal, and tell them that any ball into the smaller net was classed as a fail, so it taught them to kick it into the far left or right. We had one penalty shoot out in a cup game and they all scored. It was wonderful to see my work come to fruition!!
OP
Box Brownie
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I do not not have a minds eye view of the difference between the 7 a side goal compared to the full size........but on the replay highlights I saw of the Saka kick and it was heading towards the far RHS but the Italian goalie did, it seems, have a good track records of saves. So why are (some?) of the press, pundits and online armchair critics coming down on the youngest player ~ do they somehow think he did not try his best???In my opinion, any professional player would be expected to hit a dead ball from 12 yards on target, especially without pressure from defenders. Whether they can get that ball past a decent goalkeeper is a different issue.
When I use to coach a boys team, I would put the smaller 7 a side goals inside the normal goal, and tell them that any ball into the smaller net was classed as a fail, so it taught them to kick it into the far left or right. We had one penalty shoot out in a cup game and they all scored. It was wonderful to see my work come to fruition!!
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The Ultras. Football violence isn't just an English thing.
Italian hooligan's agonising last moments after being shot in head in Rome park
Fabrizio Piscitelli was the face of Italian hooliganism for decades, and his life was cut short when he was shot in the head - in a park not too far from Lazio's stadium - in 2019www.dailystar.co.uk
Beyond the violence, the shocking power the ultras wield over Italian football | Tobias Jones
Last week’s thuggery in Liverpool highlighted a subculture with a dark and deadly side
I know it’s not just confined to England, but I was referring to the Euros.
As far as I am concerned it’s another reason to support the England football team.
cambsno
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Its not a British thing, it happens all over. I have been to a few Koln games, never seen any trouble but I think the sheer volume of armed coppers looking scary puts people off. I felt nervous even asking for directions!
I did go to a lower league game in Koln too, think it was Fortuna in what would be our L2 I guess. Some scary people looking there, and while i was filming I was told (politely) that the ultras dont like being filmed (some had heads covered) so best I stop!
If football went away these same idiots would be fighting with a different 'reason'.
A Camb Utd supporter hit the news a while back, away game at Southend and punched in the head, Survived but only for a few years - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-54633785
Very sad story.
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Since I haven’t seen very many it may be a wrong impression but they seem mostly to be aiming the ball low whereas, if accurate, it must stand a better chance of passing the ‘keeper by going high?In my opinion, any professional player would be expected to hit a dead ball from 12 yards on target, especially without pressure from defenders. Whether they can get that ball past a decent goalkeeper is a different issue.
When I use to coach a boys team, I would put the smaller 7 a side goals inside the normal goal, and tell them that any ball into the smaller net was classed as a fail, so it taught them to kick it into the far left or right. We had one penalty shoot out in a cup game and they all scored. It was wonderful to see my work come to fruition!!
cambsno
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By hitting low (and getting inside the posts) you have a chance to score, going high means you can miss at the sides AND the top so more risk - a keeper saving looks better than missing the target.
Did anyone see the clip of Martinez for ARG against Mina (COL) in the Copa - giving him all sorts of verbals like how he would miss, he owns him etc... and it must have worked as it was a poor pen and a save. There is the fear factor to cope with, plus the two bought on had not I think even touched the ball!
Maguires was textbook, I think Shearer took a lot like that too, top corner.