England 4-0 Bulgaria - still want capello out?

cambsno said:
Look at managers like Jose, everything he touches seems to turn to gold - Porto, Chelsea, Inter, and Madrid (early days there).
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Look at what he has to play with. It's not like he's taken a crappy team and won things with them, the teams you just spoke of already have the potential, the manager then has to realise it.

With england the potential to be in the top 5 countries in the world just isn't there at this time.

The sooner that's accepted, and mostly by the media who seem to think we should be winning every game and every competition, the better as the pressure will be off and we might be able to build something for the future.
 
The desire & hunger doesn't seem to be there. You always feel that Gerrard is out there for the shirt, but some of the more mature players have life to easy at club level, playing for your country should be a privilege, not a chore.
 
We do have potential... Cole, best LB in the world? Gerrard, Rooney... would get into most teams. There are 2 objectives - 1 to be in the semis of tournaments... Tough but has to be an obective. 2nd is that we play to the best of our ability. Look at Uruguay... not the greatest players by a long way but 4th best at the WC? We should be winnig every game against teams ranked outside the top 20 and making a better fist of things against the good teams. If we really dont have the ability to be the top 5 as you say, why are we employing a manager on £6m a year? Why not just pay Pearce or whoever else £1m a year?

How the hell Barry can get a game and not Scott Parker is beyond me?

Jose did have some good players available, but interesting to see how once he leaves, the teams dont do as well?
 
cambsno said:
Jose did have some good players available, but interesting to see how once he leaves, the teams dont do as well?
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Well often he doesn't stick around long enough to see if the team is capable of performing at the level they did for consecutive seasons. Since he left chelsea they haven't been doing too badly.
 
They could always try a new manager, there's a French bloke working for an outfit in North London who seems to do OK with limited resources, admittedly they dont win much silverware but they do play nice football :)
 
MatBin said:
They could always try a new manager, there's a French bloke working for an outfit in North London who seems to do OK with limited resources, admittedly they dont win much silverware but they do play nice football :)
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Apparently the FA put an advert in the Arsenal programme but Wenger

Did Not see It
 
Let's be honest, we'll never win anything with the state of football in this country at the moment. If you go through the teams in the premiership and pick their best player you'll struggle to find more than 3 English players. Now I don't think this is the teams fault as they play to win and if bringing in great foreign players is the answer then so be it.

If you look at grass roots football other countries have a massive advantage over us. Kids don’t play football anymore. It’s very rare to go to a park on a sunny day and see 20 lads having a kick about. You always have to pay for a 5-a-side cage which kids can’t afford so they sit at home playing xbox etc. In other countries they don’t have that luxury and you see the kids constantly having a kick around.

When I went to Corfu we took a trip to the pitch where the local team played. The gates were open so we took a ball in for a kick around. One of the club officials was there and instead of kicking us off just let us play and spent some time watching. This would never happen in the UK so the youth don’t have a chance. Practice makes perfect yet our kids are playing football maybe 40 times a year for 2 hours maximum. This isn’t going to win us a world cup.

Our England squad would be massively stronger if our kids were playing more. They’d be stronger and they’d be able to develop their technique and ability. This in turn would mean they’d be scouted easier and progress through the ranks.

(Gets off soap box)
 
dcdanr said:
It’s very rare to go to a park on a sunny day and see 20 lads having a kick about. You always have to pay for a 5-a-side cage which kids can’t afford so they sit at home playing xbox etc.
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Where did they get the xbox for free though?

I don't think it is that they can't afford the fees, if they can afford an xbox and games they can afford a few pound each week for a pitch share.

It's more that they would RATHER play xbox than football
 
Christmas presents off their parents. Birthday presents. Older sibblings buying it. There are loads of ways to get a games console.

I'm 22 but the difference between me and even 17 year olds is HUGE.
 
CaptainPenguin said:
What is down to the manager is

Playing a centre half at right back
Playing an attacking midfielder in Jordan Henderson in a holding role
Playing a right winger on the left and a left winger on the right
Playing Gerard as a striker
Not reciognising that Barry is not an international player

But what really hacks me off is the pundits saying that we need Lampard and Terry back as if they have not proved time and time again that they are failures at England level
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It seemed to me last night, that many of the French players could play in any position, and were "two footed".
They are overpaid "celebrities", who are slower and fatter than their opposition.
 
dcdanr said:
Christmas presents off their parents. Birthday presents. Older sibblings buying it. There are loads of ways to get a games console.

I'm 22 but the difference between me and even 17 year olds is HUGE.
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well thats exactly my point.

Someone has to pay for it, so the money is there, but the child would rather have an xbox as a present than money to play football.

It's not that they don't have access to the money, it's that they would RATHER play xbox than football
 
andy700 said:
It seemed to me last night, that many of the French players could play in any position, and were "two footed".
They are overpaid "celebrities", who are slower and fatter than their opposition.
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the players dont get paid for playing for england so they can't be overpaid. They are just not as talented
 
cambsno said:
Look at managers like Jose, everything he touches seems to turn to gold - Porto, Chelsea, Inter, and Madrid (early days there).
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Instead of looking just at Jose, let us look at the timing of his reign at Chelsea. In 2003 Roman Abramovitch bought Chelsea, injected huge amounts of money into the club. In 2004 Jose Mourinho arrived at a club swimming in cash.
Jose is a great manager, but he has always been with very rich clubs.
Managing England is a thankless task.
We have a very long season.
The players only spend a very limited time training together.
Some of the England players are not even playing for their club regularly.
We do not have the natural skills of other players.
The Premier league is the best in the World, because of the large numbers of foreign players, not English players.
 
joescrivens said:
the players dont get paid for playing for england so they can't be overpaid. They are just not as talented
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I completely agree.

It's a sad state of affairs when our lads just aren't up to the job anymore.
 
joescrivens said:
the players dont get paid for playing for england so they can't be overpaid. They are just not as talented
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I know they do not get paid for playing for England, but they are getting paid highly for their clubs. How much effort are they putting in when they are not being paid?
I totally agree that they are not as talented, that is the major difference, probably down to coaching at an early age? Do they have skills coached out of them, rather than nurtured? Are they told to/placed in a certain position, and given no room for flair/thinking?
I enjoyed watching France play last night, because they have a few World class players (despite what Laurent Blanc may say to the contrary). Their close passing and awareness was great.
 
joescrivens said:
the players dont get paid for playing for england so they can't be overpaid. They are just not as talented
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i honestly think this is the problem

they probably dont care about it because they arent getting paid for it, all they probably think about is about getting back to their clubs where they get paid.
 
thorton said:
i honestly think this is the problem

they probably dont care about it because they arent getting paid for it, all they probably think about is about getting back to their clubs where they get paid.
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i doubt this is the problem at all.

They aren't forced to play, they can just say they are retiring from the international stage.
 
andy700 said:
.......
We have a very long season.
The players only spend a very limited time training together.
Some of the England players are not even playing for their club regularly.
We do not have the natural skills of other players.
The Premier league is the best in the World, because of the large numbers of foreign players, not English players.
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Didn't I say that earlier in the thread :thinking:
 
It's ridiculous to say the players don't care about playing for England, which suggests they're not even trying. They do care, very much. For them it's a dream come true, a real honour and the pinnicle of their careers. Ask any player if they'd rather win the League, the Champion's League or the World Cup and guess what the answer will be. I don't like John Terry but I know he'd rip his own heart out if he thought it would help England win the World Cup. Wayne Rooney is moody, petulant and sulks too much in an England shirt, but only because performing well and winning means so much, not so little.

We blame the manager, the tactics, the players, the Premier League, the length of the season - anything we can think of to explain our lack of success. Isn't it time we realized that, with one or two exceptions, our players just aren't good enough at international level? Once we accept that and stop beating ourselves up every time we lose we can relax and once again enjoy supporting our national team.

There are 15 teams in the Premier League that are never likely to win it, but that doesn't stop their matches from being entertaining or the fans from giving full support and recognizing when their teams are doing their best despite being outplayed by better opposition. Never mind winning it, they're just happy to be in it. Why can't we have the same attitude towards England? Qualification for a major tournament should be enough, then just relax, enjoy and see what happens. If we adopt that attitude and remove the ridiculous and unrealistic weight of expectation from the players, we might be pleasantly surprised.
 
andy700 said:
I totally agree that they are not as talented, that is the major difference, probably down to coaching at an early age? Do they have skills coached out of them, rather than nurtured? Are they told to/placed in a certain position, and given no room for flair/thinking?
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Probably true, I remember a certain Arsenal centre half being called a donkey and not allowed past the half way line when he played for George Graham, he became a surprisingly (to some) good player under his later manager, even got highly regarded whilst playing for England.
So I reckon other than some mangers there could well be a case of talent being squashed, add the fact we have so few English players in Premiership, dial in a manager that isnt as good as he thinks he is and the recipe for poor performance is written large.

Time to pick a manger who can manage and get the best from limited resources, maybe its time to look someplace other than the premiership?

Matt
 
add the fact we have so few English players in Premiership
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I dont buy this as a strong argument as to why we are so poor. In the 70s we had a handfull of foreign players but still missed out on 2 World Cups. Even in the 80s we did not qualify for Euro 84 or the WC in 94. GOOD players like Wiltshire, Johnson, Carroll and Walcottare coming through. Arsenal have some very talented youngsters, some of whom will hopefully break into the first team.

There is not one reason why we are poor, it is a number of them and having less foreign players would help a little. The manager though is a huge factor. I am not stupid enough to think that replacing Capello will suddenly see us win the next tournament, but will we perform better.
 
MatBin said:
Probably true, I remember a certain Arsenal centre half being called a donkey and not allowed past the half way line when he played for George Graham, he became a surprisingly (to some) good player under his later manager, even got highly regarded whilst playing for England.
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Tony Adams actually went on to Captain England IIRC.

Let's face it, we don't have 10-12 "World Class" players. Gerrard, Ashley Cole (though I hate to admit it), maybe Terry, but few others. I wouldn't consider Rooney, Lampard or Ferdinand in that category as they don't have the consistency. We don't even have an above average goal keeper, and haven't had since David Seaman. We have a striker that has a great goal scoring record for his country but struggles to get in the starting line up :shrug:

But the question to ask is, if it is down to management, then who could take them to the next level? Personally I don't think that Harry is the right guy as he's too old and not used to handling world class egos. I honestly think that Wenger would do an excellent job, but I don't think he's interested. Is there an English Manager out there that could do it ?

Steve
 
Surely Didier Drogba qualifies for British residency now doesn't he?! :D:p

If England don't take him, on behalf of the Scots...I'd like to extend Mr Drogba the olive branch!
 
Having a foreign manager is one thing but a foreign player is too much inmo
 
and the german national team

poles, brazilians...


heres a post i posted on another forums on more of my views on this:



if you look at the english players, they all play against each other

look at the team we played:

foster - birmingham

richards - city
jagielka - everton
ferdinand - united
lescott - city
gibbs - arsenal

henderson - sunderland
milner - city
gerrard - liverpool
AJ - city
walcott - arsenal
barry - city
young - villa

bothroyd - cardiff
carroll - newcastle
crouch - spurs


and some other english nationals:

hart - city
green - west ham

cole - chelsea
terry - chelsea
bridge - city

wilshere - arsenal

rooney - united


compare that to the likes of the:

  • spanish team who pretty much all play for either barca or real madrid
  • portuguese national team who all play in different leagues (rarely play vs each other and isnt full of derby's at their clubs)
  • brazil is same as portugal
  • dutch is same again
  • argentina is the same again



i guess thats why they dont gel - all they play is derbies every week against each other in the premiership.



im not using this to excuse them because they do genuinly play ***** at international level - i just think this is why.
 
I just think that including players who have no birth or hereditary link to the nation they represent makes a mockery of international sport - not just football.

It would make more sense to me to have a United Kingdom team rather than four seperate "nations." Think what England might have achieved with Ryan Giggs covering that awkward left-side position whilst in his prime!

The arguement goes that by having seperate nations it gives more players the chance to represent their country at international level but, as we are now realizing, many of those players don't have the ability to compete at that level. The choice is clear, do we want a realistic chance of winning something or are we happy to just make up the numbers at international competitions?
 
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