England 4-0 Bulgaria - still want capello out?

cambsno said:
Will actually side with Joe here, very few teams qualify with 100% records, even Germany drop points, and i think Swiss away is the toughest. I think if we can draw tomoro, draw away to Wales and win the rest we will qulaify with ease comfortably, maybe even dropping a further point will be fine too.



I dont think he becomes good or bad based on 1 result - unless we win 15-0 or lose 10-0 !!! I mean, any player could have a fantastic or crap game and that doesnt mean they should stay in or out the squad. If say Hart has a stinker do we drop him and say his a bad player, or if say Cole was injured and Gibbs played very well, would you keep him in at the expense of Cole next game?

If Capello qualified with 4-0 wins in every game that is a good job, but its how he performs at the main event thats important.
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thats ridiculous, you're saying for capello to have done a good job he has to win every game 4-0!!

or are you saying you won't aknowledge how well he has done until we actually get to the tournament and base it on that - would you do the same on saying whether he had done badly or not?
 
No, read what I said, I said IF he does, not he HAS to. With the group we have, and the players, we should win the group and drop no more than 6 points (4 ideally). I feel that any manager should achieve that. Thats satisfactory, expectations met. If he drops more points and we go through playoffs or dont qualify, bad job, if we storm the group winning every game, good job.

Aside from the wally with the brolly, and Graham Taylor in 94, we have qualified for every tournament since the 84 EC. So I think its fair to say that ANY England manager must qualify, it should be a formality like Man Utd finishing in the top 4. You can only say people are a good manager or player if they perform when it matters.
 
cambsno said:
No, read what I said, I said IF he does, not he HAS to. With the group we have, and the players, we should win the group and drop no more than 6 points (4 ideally). I feel that any manager should achieve that. Thats satisfactory, expectations met. If he drops more points and we go through playoffs or dont qualify, bad job, if we storm the group winning every game, good job.

Aside from the wally with the brolly, and Graham Taylor in 94, we have qualified for every tournament since the 84 EC. So I think its fair to say that ANY England manager must qualify, it should be a formality like Man Utd finishing in the top 4. You can only say people are a good manager or player if they perform when it matters.
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ok so we'll make this simple

Fail to qualify - poor job
Qualify - satisfactory
Win every game - good job

tournament - not reach final 8 - bad job
get to final 8 just about - satisfactory
final 8 or above with stellar performances - good job

fair?
 
Broadly speaking agree. Would also call winning it but playing terribly as a good job... Would also say your 'bad job' for tournament would also depend on the quality. If we get a group like Italy, Spain and Portugal and play very well but go out having had really bad luck and putting 100% in, then I would be happy with that.
 
England 4-0 Bulgaria - still want capello out?
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Yes... Doesn't matter who they beat or by what score.. He still isn't English
 
I've kept my nose out of this thus far and intend to avoid discussing most things as it's only ever been a 2 man discussion but this whole English only manager business is really annoying me.

I fail to to see the argument that managers should be of the nationality of the team they manage when there's assistant managers, medical staff and all the other support staff (of which there are many) who could still be of any nationality. If people said they wanted a 100% English team playing an opponent who's entire team was made up of that nationality then I understand the point; pitting our finest players, manager, trainers, physio's etc. against the finest that another nation has to offer, but as long as it's only the players and the manager that need to be English then it's pretty much an empty gesture because there are those people out of the limelight that do an awful lot for the running and upkeep of the team as well.

Additionally, most of the people I've heard taking greatest issue with the fact we have a foreign manager are those News of the World / Sun / Mail / Mirror readers who have no genuine interest in football but just like to moan about the wrongdoings of everyone else. Typical.
 
joescrivens said:
what would you pick, a foriegn manager that won us the world cup or a domestic one that didnt?
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I would rather fail with an englishman than win with a foreigner.. wheres the glory for england when an italian manager won it for us? which is the first thing the world would be pointing out and laughing at..
 
TriggerHappy said:
I fail to to see the argument that managers should be of the nationality of the team they manage when there's assistant managers, medical staff and all the other support staff .
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Players ahve to be english.. the person above the players should be english.. IMHO :)
 
KIPAX said:
I would rather fail with an englishman than win with a foreigner.. wheres the glory for england when an italian manager won it for us? which is the first thing the world would be pointing out and laughing at..
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you make it sound like we are the only team with a manager not of the nationality, and thats crazy by the way and i find it kind of narrow, why does the manager not being english present such an issue that you'd rather lose than win with him?
 
joescrivens said:
you make it sound like we are the only team with a manager not of the nationality,
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England is my only national team.. therefore my comments are based on this.. not international football as a whole...

If another country won the world cup with an englishman as manager i would be proud as punch as would the rest of the country and I am sure we would be leteting everyone know.... I wouldnt like to see that hapen to us..

I prefer if all the players have to be english then the person in charge should be english
 
KIPAX said:
Players ahve to be english.. the person above the players should be english.. IMHO :)
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I'm not saying that shouldn't be the case but surely the intention is to have an exhibition (if that's the best word) of English talent, not just to have one more Englishman amongst them, and to do so would mean having a 100% english team. I honestly don't see what difference just having an English manager makes if there's still people of different nationalities in the other positions.
 
joescrivens said:
and thats crazy by the way and i find it kind of narrow
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happy with an italian restoring pride to our national team i find unpatriotic.... whats the problem? we all have our opinions.. dont attack mine thank you :)
 
TriggerHappy said:
I honestly don't see what difference just having an English manager makes if there's still people of different nationalities in the other positions.
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I can see you dont... but I can see it does make a difference... and having different opinions is what makes the world go around.. just try not to call me narrow minded or crazy for having mine please :)
 
KIPAX said:
happy with an italian restoring pride to our national team i find unpatriotic.... whats the problem? we all have our opinions.. dont attack mine thank you :)
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essentially what you are saying is you preffered life under mclaren than under capello, i happened to be at wembley when croatia beat us in the game that stopped us qualifying and life under mclaren was an absolute shambles
 
joescrivens said:
essentially what you are saying is you preffered life under mclaren than under capello, i happened to be at wembley when croatia beat us in the game that stopped us qualifying and life under mclaren was an absolute shambles
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So far as I am aware, each of the last 13 England managers have achieved exactly the same, nothing. I would rather be average under a Englishman with a bit of national pride, then average under a foreigner.
 
wisemen said:
So far as I am aware, each of the last 13 England managers have achieved exactly the same, nothing. I would rather be average under a Englishman with a bit of national pride, then average under a foreigner.
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But would you rather be average under an Englishman or excellent under a foreigner?
 
This thread is turning rather silly now I reckon.some peoples perseption of the managers role is way off the mark .
 
KIPAX said:
I can see you dont... but I can see it does make a difference... and having different opinions is what makes the world go around.. just try not to call me narrow minded or crazy for having mine please :)
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Slow down there, Kipax! I haven't called you narrow minded or crazy, nor have I insinuated anything of that nature. I'm genuinely interested in why people feel that having an English manager is so important and was hoping you could explain the point that I seem to missing :shrug:
 
I haven't read the full thread here but to answer the original question - Yes, I still want capello out.

one 4-0 win over a side who my old saturday football team would have beaten is not a confidence booster.
He shows no passion for what he has control over, not even a smile when we score. He is no good for our team and when in front of the camera's he really does struggle to answer the most basic of crit.
The teams he plays out for us make no sense nor do the decsions he makes around the team and sub's.


Capello out! (for me :D)
 
joescrivens said:
okey dokey, so a good performance and a draw and you'll concede capello did a good job for that game right?
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Depends on the nature of the game.

The outcome of some games can be down to the manager and the decisions he made - other games the manager needs / has little in the way of influence.

Think I said earlier on the thread that 50% of football fans on the street would probably select the same squad/team as Capello. If that team went out were winning 3:0 at half time and you simply substituted a forward for additional holding midfield player and held on to win easilly - hardly takes a genius but he'll be slapped on the back. Job done.

If results are good - keep going - To me you need only look into the performance of the manager following a poor result.
 
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gazedd said:
I haven't read the full thread here but to answer the original question - Yes, I still want capello out.

one 4-0 win over a side who my old saturday football team would have beaten is not a confidence booster.
He shows no passion for what he has control over, not even a smile when we score. He is no good for our team and when in front of the camera's he really does struggle to answer the most basic of crit.
The teams he plays out for us make no sense nor do the decsions he makes around the team and sub's.


Capello out! (for me :D)
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interesting, yet everyone before the game was slamming his decision to choose defoe and he gets a hat trick - seemed like a good decision to me!
 
Ok to take this in a bit of a different direction.

Capello leaves England one way or the other (be it a sacking or leaving on his on terms) would you be willing to take a British manager, or does he have to be an English manager. What I'm getting at is would you be willing to have someone like Sir Alex, Moyes or O'Neil.....

....or pick from Redknapp, Allardyce or Curbishley (3 English managers I rate as being the best and most likely candidates if it was ever to come up)

FTR - We went down the route of foreign manager (Berti McVoigts.....dear god was that really really awful). I have no problem with a foreign manager, but they can never have the same passion for the team as a manager from the corresponding nation.

However I don't think it would be an issue if we had a Welsh or Irish manager.....and we had Terry Butcher as an assistant manager and the only issues I had was Terry refusing to shake Maradona's hand when we played Argentina in a friendly.....and he is a manager of those Dirty Caley barstewards.
 
MackieStaggie said:
....or pick from Redknapp, Allardyce or Curbishley (3 English managers I rate as being the best and most likely candidates if it was ever to come up)

FTR - We went down the route of foreign manager (Berti McVoigts.....dear god was that really really awful). I have no problem with a foreign manager, but they can never have the same passion for the team as a manager from the corresponding nation.

However I don't think it would be an issue if we had a Welsh or Irish manager.....and we had Terry Butcher as an assistant manager and the only issues I had was Terry refusing to shake Maradona's hand when we played Argentina in a friendly.....and he is a manager of those Dirty Caley barstewards.
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allardyce! my god please never!

I don't think the manager has to have passion for the country to do a good job, he just has to have passion for the job, for winning for getting results.

club teams have managers from all over - they don't have to have a passion for being from west ham - they just want to win!
 
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joescrivens said:
I don't think the manager has to have passion for the country to do a good job, he just has to have passion for the job, for winning for getting results.
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:thumbs:

That's the whole point of being a professional.

There's loads of people in every walk of life that are amazing at what they do but require no 'allegiance'.
 
So as a perfect example look at Scolari - he took portugal to the finals of the euros in 2004 - no allegiance to the country but a very successful campaign.
 
spot on result and spot on performance against the swiss. as in all games there are a few times where it gets tiugh and there were 2 spells of 10 mins like that for us, but for the majority we totally bossed the game.

their goal, what can you say, just an excellent individual effort, would have scored that against anyone. we looked very creative and the subs that were brought on all performed well.

the only dodgy part was a harts performance i thought, hopefully just an off side.

great performance by the team and another great job by capello
 
It was a good performance and a good result. Does not mean he does a good job though, as he would have played pretty much the same team from the WC if it was not for injuries. What will he do when Lampard, Terry etc... is fit? Why was Hart, Johnson (Adam) and to a slightly lesser extent Jagielka and Walcott not good enough for the WC?

Anyway, he put SWP on - WHY????? What a shocking ball he played.
 
cambsno said:
It was a good performance and a good result. Does not mean he does a good job though, as he would have played pretty much the same team from the WC if it was not for injuries. What will he do when Lampard, Terry etc... is fit? Why was Hart, Johnson (Adam) and to a slightly lesser extent Jagielka and Walcott not good enough for the WC?

Anyway, he put SWP on - WHY????? What a shocking ball he played.
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perhaps i should put together a montage of swp after he came on, he made that one bad pass but he made two cracking runs along the defence and the second was a superb cross with a good save from the goal keeper.

all three subs performed well.
 
And you thought you Englsh had issues....



....HA. You aint got nothing on Scotland, so cheeer up you miserable bar-stewards and enjoy what you have. Now where's that bottle, I need a huge drink
 
I was gutted about the winner, was so hoping Scotland would draw!
 
cambsno said:
I was gutted about the winner, was so hoping Scotland would draw!
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We would have robbed them of a point.

Normally I would be jumping up and down on your post and calling you every name under the sun (and with 1/2 a bottle whiskey to go that still could happen) but I can not even come around to defend that performance.
 
cambsno said:
Just cos its so funny seeing how pants Scotland are!
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careful, a few months ago we were no better, the scots often like to revel in our misery, I like to think the english are bigger than that and will cheer them on!
 
So now we will see what Capelloo is really made of,this side missing Lampard,Terry @ Ferdinand was forced upon him and has looked more balanced that the WC team although it is still a work in progress.
Will he have the sense and guts to leave these 3 either out of the squad or out of the starting line up so that the progress with the current line up can continue
 
CaptainPenguin said:
So now we will see what Capelloo is really made of,this side missing Lampard,Terry @ Ferdinand was forced upon him and has looked more balanced that the WC team although it is still a work in progress.
Will he have the sense and guts to leave these 3 either out of the squad or out of the starting line up so that the progress with the current line up can continue
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I don't think having terry and ferdinand in that squad would have made a blind bit of difference - in fact I think they would have been even stronger at the back.

As for lamps, thats a tougher choice. Midfield did seem very balanced with the four in there as they are but I think I rate lampard as a player over gareth barry. I'd like to see lamps taking barrys role and being disciplined to stay back to let gerrard venture forwards
 
joescrivens said:
I don't think having terry and ferdinand in that squad would have made a blind bit of difference - in fact I think they would have been even stronger at the back.

As for lamps, thats a tougher choice. Midfield did seem very balanced with the four in there as they are but I think I rate lampard as a player over gareth barry. I'd like to see lamps taking barrys role and being disciplined to stay back to let gerrard venture forwards
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Errikson,Mclaren and Capello have been trying that for 8 years and it has failed miserably

GERARD AND LAMPARD CANNOT PLAY TOGETHER in a 4-4-2 that Capello seems determined to use
 
CaptainPenguin said:
Errikson,Mclaren and Capello have been trying that for 8 years and it has failed miserably

GERARD AND LAMPARD CANNOT PLAY TOGETHER in a 4-4-2 that Capello seems determined to use
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really? I seem to remember us winning all but one of our wc qualifiers with gerrard and lampard playing together
 
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