England 4-0 Bulgaria - still want capello out?

joescrivens said:
Well for a start the player all back him, every one of them. Not one has come out and said he can't communicate with them.

Secondly it wasn't him that was abysmal it was the players which was clearly proved when they performed the other night. Bulgaria were no better than Algeria or Slovenia, same manager, same tactics, mostly the same team, same formation. The difference? The players pulled their fingers out.

The blame for the world cup lies largely with the players.
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Of course the players back him, if they speak out do you think they will get picked? Would you publish an article in your company magazine criticising your boss? What do you think would happen then! I recall David James did criticise him after the WC.

His decisions over keepers and not telling them who was playing till as late as possible was appalling.

Secondly, he PICKED the players who did not perform in SA. Jagielka especially and Dawson looked a lot better than Upson and Carragher, Walcott and Johnson looked a million times better than Lennon and SWP. Were the tactics the same? I thought Rooney dropped a lot deeper.

Thirdly, if the blame lies largely with the players, why is he still picking them? Using your argument, they have proved they cannot cope at the top level, so why continue with them?
 
joescrivens said:
no i believe that some teams etc just arent cut out for winning competitions, maybe the talent in this country is not enough to get us past quarter finals ... maybe at this time we should just accept that. henman just wasnt good enough ... maybe our football talent is the same.
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As I have said before, winning would be great, but all I ask is that we give it a go and try our best. We looked like (manager included) we couldnt give a monkeys. His treatment then of Beckham was appalling.

I actually think we can compete with the worlds best, the best teams dont always win! Brazil in 82 springs to mind, Greece were awful but the manager had a plan and won Euro 04. Early days, but Hart looks class, Cole is the best LB in the world, Gerrard would get into any team, Lampard would (but not at the same time) and Rooney is a world class player. The likes of Defoe, J Cole, Theo, Johnson dont look too shabby either!
 
I'd be interested to see how Martin O'Neill would handle your squad, a superb man manager.

I think the time would have to be right but he could be your Messiah.
 
Hyster said:
I'd be interested to see how Martin O'Neill would handle your squad, a superb man manager.

I think the time would have to be right but he could be your Messiah.
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At least were not as bad as the Scots :p

O'Neil would be a good manager, and he is sort of English! Hughes did very well too for Wales.
 
joescrivens said:
Well for a start the player all back him, every one of them. Not one has come out and said he can't communicate with them.

Secondly it wasn't him that was abysmal it was the players which was clearly proved when they performed the other night. Bulgaria were no better than Algeria or Slovenia, same manager, same tactics, mostly the same team, same formation. The difference? The players pulled their fingers out.

The blame for the world cup lies largely with the players.
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Nah ,your trying to tell me Cappello had a good WC .... all you had to do was watch the players at the WC they kept looking to the bench ,they didn't agree to his tactics it was so obvious but.... in saying that,modern day players really don't performe ,they've no heart whats so ever and their too greedy .Ever heard Chris Waddles rant on five live at the WC,i applauded him for that,so true
 
the way people are going on here, you don't know how good England have got it...


...I mean, at least your not the French, who lost 1-0 at home to Belarus. :lol:
 
4 goals against a Team like Bulgaria, lets not get too excited?
Don't think Germany are trembling in their boots.
 
Right we should have won against Bulgaria and we did - no big deal, although the 4 goal margin was still respectable.

I personally disagreed with the use of Heskie during the wolrd cup, and despite being a pompey fan, did feel that James' performance of late didnt warrant his place as keeper - hardly a clean sheet all year. I also had my doubts at the time over the use of 4-4-2 with players who are not used to playing in that formation.

But my reason for not wanting Capello to stay does not come from any of the above. It is his face and that everloud ever widening mouth of his, every time I see him on the sideline shouting and waving his arms around like a psychotic rotary washing line I just wanna give the obnoxious gob****e a kicking.
 
wisemen said:
Competely agree, so where is the harm in giving others a go.
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because I don't believe others would do better than capello, if we are good enough to compete then capello is the man to get us there, I don't know what this fascination with martin o neil is, sure I think he's a good manager but villa are a better team than what they have achieved under o'neil, which is b****r all - not a single trophy - not even the carling cup
 
wisemen said:
The same plank who hasn't scored since last September for England and hasn't scored in a tournament, ie when it really counts, for England since 2004. Apart from the obvious dis allowed goal.
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thats the one !!!
 
joescrivens said:
because I don't believe others would do better than capello, if we are good enough to compete then capello is the man to get us there, I don't know what this fascination with martin o neil is, sure I think he's a good manager but villa are a better team than what they have achieved under o'neil, which is b****r all - not a single trophy - not even the carling cup
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We are going round in circles here. We are no where near good enough to compete, therefore a wholsale change should be brought about. You seem happy to settle for mediocrity, your coice, I would rather a change with a hope to things improving. I'm no fan of Martin O'Neill either and wouldn't say he is the man for the job. For what it's worth, I would like to see an existing member of the England set up be given the reigns, a certain Mr Pearce, who would at least manage with a sense of pride.
 
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wisemen said:
We are going round in circles here. We are no where near good enough to compete, therefore a wholsale change should be brought about. You seem happy to settle for mediocrity, your coice, I would rather a change with a hope to things improving. I'm no fan of Martin O'Neill either and wouldn't say he is the man for the job. For what it's worth, I would like to see an existing member of the England set up be given the reigns, a certain Mr Pearce, who would at least manage with a sense of pride.
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no you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that the current 23 man squad is no where near good enough to compete, so we should let new players in.

I'm saying perhaps england as a country just doesn't have the talent right now to be champions, no matter what 23 man squad was picked. Not every country in the world is capable of winning trophies, perhaps we aren't one of them?

If we are, then the squad we have and the management we have is as good as it will be so I don't see how any changes would make any difference. Pearce will be the next england manager without a doubt, but leave him where he is right now gaining more experience so when he does take over we don't end up in a thread like this where after one competition people are selling him down the water
 
joescrivens said:
no you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that the current 23 man squad is no where near good enough to compete, so we should let new players in.

I'm saying perhaps england as a country just doesn't have the talent right now to be champions, no matter what 23 man squad was picked. Not every country in the world is capable of winning trophies, perhaps we aren't one of them?

If we are, then the squad we have and the management we have is as good as it will be so I don't see how any changes would make any difference. Pearce will be the next england manager without a doubt, but leave him where he is right now gaining more experience so when he does take over we don't end up in a thread like this where after one competition people are selling him down the water
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ANY country is capable and any international country has the talent. Greece was a fantastic example. Uruguay's exploits in the last world cup, from a population 1/10th's that of England, is another. The talent is there, we have players more than capable of getting into any international team, this talent is being mis managed.
We can carry on being a medioucre team under Capello, ease through qualifying but lack a certain something when it comes to tournament finals and ultimately win nothing. Or a change, for a manager who lives and breathes his national team and really pushes to get the highest standards from his players and hopefully would motivate them to achieve better things.
No doubt Capello will get us to the Euros. Will we be amongst Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc, in getting to the semis or finals? Highly unlikely under current management. Then in two years time Capello will have failed twice and people will be saying 'he should have gone after 2010'.
I do hope that I am wrong and hope in 2 years time someone will say to me 'I told you Capello was the man for the job'. At the moment though, I doubt it.
 
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Exactly Nick, managers can really have an impact like Greece and Uruguay, and lets not forget that while Porto were a good side, it was Jose that won the CL for them.

Anyway, rather than debate the pros and cons, I have stuck a simple poll up, should get a view from the people that matter - the fans.
 
wisemen said:
ANY country is capable and any international country has the talent. Greece was a fantastic example. Uruguay's exploits in the last world cup, from a population 1/10th's that of England, is another. The talent is there, we have players more than capable of getting into any international team, this talent is being mis managed.
We can carry on being a medioucre team under Capello, ease through qualifying but lack a certain something when it comes to tournament finals and ultimately win nothing. Or a change, for a manager who lives and breathes his national team and really pushes to get the highest standards from his players and hopefully would motivate them to achieve better things.
No doubt Capello will get us to the Euros. Will we be amongst Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc, in getting to the semis or finals? Highly unlikely under current management. Then in two years time Capello will have failed twice and people will be saying 'he should have gone after 2010'.
I do hope that I am wrong and hope in 2 years time someone will say to me 'I told you Capello was the man for the job'. At the moment though, I doubt it.
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No fraid not. You'll never see Andorra winning the world cup, that's just fact. Not every country has the inherent talent to compete. It has to start at the grass roots, sure you can get flukes like Greece but these are few and far between.

What stage would England need to reach for you to have considered capello had done a good job? Only winning it or would you consider him successful for getting to the semis or the final?
 
joescrivens said:
No fraid not. You'll never see Andorra winning the world cup, that's just fact. Not every country has the inherent talent to compete. It has to start at the grass roots, sure you can get flukes like Greece but these are few and far between.

What stage would England need to reach for you to have considered capello had done a good job? Only winning it or would you consider him successful for getting to the semis or the final?
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You contradict yourself in the first sentance. Andorra will never win, fact. But you get flukes. Erm, Andorra could fluke it.
But I see your point. What I should have said is any team capable of making it to a major tournament finals is capable of lifting the trophy. They are all there, apart from the hosts, by qualifying, therefore on merit.
I would have considered it a success to get into the last 4. Last 8 should be a matter of course. Should have topped the group. Anyway, no point looking at the past, the future is the important bit and so long as Capello remains in charge, we will be no more than mediocre.
 
wisemen said:
You contradict yourself in the first sentance. Andorra will never win, fact. But you get flukes. Erm, Andorra could fluke it.
But I see your point. What I should have said is any team capable of making it to a major tournament finals is capable of lifting the trophy. They are all there, apart from the hosts, by qualifying, therefore on merit.
I would have considered it a success to get into the last 4. Last 8 should be a matter of course. Should have topped the group. Anyway, no point looking at the past, the future is the important bit and so long as Capello remains in charge, we will be no more than mediocre.
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im willing to bet my life savings that andorra will never win the world cup, not even by a fluke. also it depends on whos in that group, we qualified with an easy group like we will this time, some teams get an easy way to the tournament then choke clearly when they are there.

i mean in this next campaign, what stage of the euros will you consider capello to be succesful?
 
joescrivens said:
im willing to bet my life savings that andorra will never win the world cup, not even by a fluke. also it depends on whos in that group, we qualified with an easy group like we will this time, some teams get an easy way to the tournament then choke clearly when they are there.

i mean in this next campaign, what stage of the euros will you consider capello to be succesful?
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I'll bet my life savings that one day Andorra will. How will either of us prove otherwise? Pointless statement that can never be proven, we will both be dead in ooohhh, 70 years or so and never goes on a lot longer then that.

Same as last. Last eight is expected, last 4 would be better.
 
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wisemen said:
I'll bet my life savings that one day Andorra will. How will either of us prove otherwise? Pointless statement that can never be proven, we will both be dead in ooohhh, 70 years or so and never goes on a lot longer then that.

Same as last. Last eight is expected, last 4 would be better.
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ok so theres a better test. capello makes the last 4 and you're wrong. capello doesnt and i am. deal?
 
joescrivens said:
ok so theres a better test. capello makes the last 4 and you're wrong. capello doesnt and i am. deal?
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If Capello drags us to the last 4, I'll be oh so happy to be wrong.
 
wisemen said:
If Capello drags us to the last 4, I'll be oh so happy to be wrong.
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:-)

how about switzerland then, what would you consider a successful result? They are ranked 17th in the world so not an easy opponent by any stretch - they beat spain at the wc and we are playing at their home.

Personally I think a win by a one goal margin would be a very good result and a draw wouldn't be a bad result by any means.
 
Joe, you seem obsessed with results... Sure, I would love us to make the semis or better, but I am happy with either :

A: Play average / poor but do well in tournament (semi at least), similar to Greece in 04 for example.
b: Give 110% and try bloody hard and just get beaten by a better team or a very unlucky result (like 98).
 
joescrivens said:
:-)Personally I think a win by a one goal margin would be a very good result and a draw wouldn't be a bad result by any means.
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See, we can agree ;)

I think that they are the biggest danger. We SHOULD win this group as we have on paper a far stronger team than the others, but they are tough. A draw would be a fine result, a win would basically see us through as the other games are far more winnable.

As long as we put every effort into it, I would be very happy with a draw
 
cambsno said:
See, we can agree ;)

I think that they are the biggest danger. We SHOULD win this group as we have on paper a far stronger team than the others, but they are tough. A draw would be a fine result, a win would basically see us through as the other games are far more winnable.

As long as we put every effort into it, I would be very happy with a draw
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okey dokey, so a good performance and a draw and you'll concede capello did a good job for that game right?
 
joescrivens said:
okey dokey, so a good performance and a draw and you'll concede capello did a good job for that game right?
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I would say satisfactory, a win would be a good job for that game, but you cannot judge him based on that. England should qualify for all tournaments with relative ease, that is a given. I would expect to qualify from this group with any league manager in charge. What matters, is the tournament itself, and that is where the top managers stand out.
 
cambsno said:
I would say satisfactory, a win would be a good job for that game, but you cannot judge him based on that. England should qualify for all tournaments with relative ease, that is a given. I would expect to qualify from this group with any league manager in charge. What matters, is the tournament itself, and that is where the top managers stand out.
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so hang on, on one hand you just said you would be very happy with a draw and on the other hand you would consider capellos performance with a draw and a good team performance to be satisfactory ... so are you saying that satisfactory performance from capello results in you being very happy?

I'm confused! :suspect:
 
National pride in National teams is good for the country and the economy. The problem is however , (certainly in Football) that the players have no pride in playing for their country.

Some of them seem to find it more important to "play away" as often as possible from their wives and then use their fortunes to take out injunctions against the gutter press, in an attempt to not lose the glossy PR image.

Can't see it changing myself without major upheavals as the "cult of celebrity" seems to run rampant through society and young people now aspire to be either a footballer or pop star as it makes them rich and famous.

Sign of the times:(
 
PsiFox said:
National pride in National teams is good for the country and the economy. The problem is however , (certainly in Football) that the players have no pride in playing for their country.

Some of them seem to find it more important to "play away" as often as possible from their wives and then use their fortunes to take out injunctions against the gutter press, in an attempt to not lose the glossy PR image.

Can't see it changing myself without major upheavals as the "cult of celebrity" seems to run rampant through society and young people now aspire to be either a footballer or pop star as it makes them rich and famous.

Sign of the times:(
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I disagree with this, if the players had no pride in playing for their country then why play? they don't make any money from it (directly anyway, who knows if sales of shirts with their names on goes to them etc) and the press is terrible so it doesn't help their reputations or make them look good. It's also major hassle to go to places like macedonia for three days away from their clubs etc.

personally I don't see any merit for a player to be playing in a national team that is always underperforming - so why do they bother accepting the callups?
 
No, I think a draw is a good result, but would not say that it means Capello is doing a good job. Thats 2 different things.

A draw and a decent performance would be my expectation, if we get that it proves that for that game he has not done a good or bad job but a satisfactory job.
 
joescrivens said:
I disagree with this, if the players had no pride in playing for their country then why play? they don't make any money from it (directly anyway, who knows if sales of shirts with their names on goes to them etc) and the press is terrible so it doesn't help their reputations or make them look good. It's also major hassle to go to places like macedonia for three days away from their clubs etc.

personally I don't see any merit for a player to be playing in a national team that is always underperforming - so why do they bother accepting the callups?
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As I understand it they don't get paid as such as you say. There is however a managed pool of money from sponsors which is paid to the palyers for making personal appearances.

For getting knocked out of Euro 2008 I have read that some players earnt up to £150,000 in appearance fees afterwards.
 
I think most players want to play for the country and have pride, but if they play in a bad system or managed poorly they will suffer. I have managed people at work for a few years and everyone is different, some need an arm round the shoulder and lots of support, others respond better to a kick up the backside or just being left alone. Capello is too aloof and rigid imo which will not bring out the best of say a Joe Cole.
 
cambsno said:
No, I think a draw is a good result, but would not say that it means Capello is doing a good job. Thats 2 different things.

A draw and a decent performance would be my expectation, if we get that it proves that for that game he has not done a good or bad job but a satisfactory job.
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ok but i originally asked what outcome for that game would mean to you that capello had done a good job? I'm just curious so that we can quantify the result against what you deem him to be doing as good or bad.
 
I would say that anything less then a comprehensive win against the Swiss is a poor result. By that I don't mean we need to win 4-0 again, a 1-0 win would do as long as we look comfortable. A draw wouldn't be the end of the world with regards to qualifying, but we really need to be beating this level of teams.
 
wisemen said:
I would say that anything less then a comprehensive win against the Swiss is a poor result. By that I don't mean we need to win 4-0 again, a 1-0 win would do as long as we look comfortable. A draw wouldn't be the end of the world with regards to qualifying, but we really need to be beating this level of teams.
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I don't think a draw would be a poor result, they beat spain and spain went on to win the world cup. You've seen many a game where the team that drew deserved to win, I think if we draw as long as we look strong and create plenty of chances then we haven't had a bad result - remember these guys arent a push over and we're away from home.
 
joescrivens said:
I don't think a draw would be a poor result, they beat spain and spain went on to win the world cup. You've seen many a game where the team that drew deserved to win, I think if we draw as long as we look strong and create plenty of chances then we haven't had a bad result - remember these guys arent a push over and we're away from home.
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A draw would be a poor result. We should still have no probs qualifying, however to stand a chance against the top Eurpoean (world) teams, in Tournament finals, we need to beating teams like the Swiss side. Mediocrity, no better, if its any result but a win.
 
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wisemen said:
A draw would be a poor result. We should still have no probs qualifying, however to stand a chance against the top Eurpoean (world) teams, in Tournament finals, we need to beating teams like the Swiss side. Mediocrity, no better, if its any result but a win.
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ok so for you a win is paramount and a given, not so for most of us, we can see a draw being a realistic result too, but what needs to happen for you to concede whether capello did a good job with this game then?
 
Will actually side with Joe here, very few teams qualify with 100% records, even Germany drop points, and i think Swiss away is the toughest. I think if we can draw tomoro, draw away to Wales and win the rest we will qulaify with ease comfortably, maybe even dropping a further point will be fine too.

ok but i originally asked what outcome for that game would mean to you that capello had done a good job? I'm just curious so that we can quantify the result against what you deem him to be doing as good or bad.
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I dont think he becomes good or bad based on 1 result - unless we win 15-0 or lose 10-0 !!! I mean, any player could have a fantastic or crap game and that doesnt mean they should stay in or out the squad. If say Hart has a stinker do we drop him and say his a bad player, or if say Cole was injured and Gibbs played very well, would you keep him in at the expense of Cole next game?

If Capello qualified with 4-0 wins in every game that is a good job, but its how he performs at the main event thats important.
 
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