Elinchrom 500's - Little Help?

danieljamesphoto

danieljamesphoto

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Hi Guys,

I have the following set up currently,

2x Elinchrom 500's with large silver brollys set up in the corners behind me bouncing light back to a 6ft white lastolite background with train. My problem is that I find it hard to get the settings right without having some PP work to do after.

The most common settings I use for all around shots of an individual are:-

1/80 (using a 17-70 Sigma f/2.8-4)
f/9
ISO 200

Elinchroms on about half power, being 500's they are a bit old now I know, they seem a bit too powerful at times, would it be better maybe to use a softbox or shoot through umbrella possibly do you think?

thanks :)
 
Yes, they're a bit old now and only have very limited adjustment, but this really doesn't matter for your purpose.

If you're having problems then it is due to one or more of these

1. Lighting is uneven, so you are using too much power to compensate
2. Lighting is uneven, you aren't using enough power to get it all perfectly white
3. Subject is too close to the background, therefore you're getting light bounced back from the background or spilled from the umbrellas.

If you can tell us exactly what the problem is (and if poss post an example) it should be easy enough to come up with solutions.
 
thanks for the help :)

I think its option 3, i'm in a very limited space and can't get enough distance between the background the subject a lot of the time.

So I should aim to get the subject a bit further from the background maybe?

Would a shoot through brolly help due to the intensity of the flashes? rather than a harsh bounce from the silver?
 
danieljamesphoto said:
thanks for the help :)

I think its option 3, i'm in a very limited space and can't get enough distance between the background the subject a lot of the time.

So I should aim to get the subject a bit further from the background maybe?

Would a shoot through brolly help due to the intensity of the flashes? rather than a harsh bounce from the silver?
Click to expand...

You need to get the maximum possible distance between subject and background.
DO NOT change to shoot through umbrellas, this will make the problem much worse.

Consider using the special background reflectors you can get to fit Elinchrom - hidiously overpriced but very effective - or use 2 x large rectangular softboxes instead, each aimed towards the other side of the wall. This has 2 benefits:
1. It produces fairly even illumination, which will allow you to turn the lights down, which in itself will reduce the problem
2. Because of cosine law, less light will reflect off of the background and on to the subject.

You say in your original post that your lights are set at about half power. You can turn them down lower than that, I believe that you can set your camera ISO to 100 - so why is it set to 200, which effectively doubles the power of your lights?

If all else fails (which it won't) you can always use a ND filter on your camera lens or ND gels on your lights

Hope this helps
 
many thanks :)

i'll snapshot a raw file I took the other day (this is just part of the image obviously). In my quick to jump to defense, I had very little time to set up for this shoot but is this simply a case of, one light being too bright against one too dim? I know that sounds obvious.

picture1wx.png


also, in a small room, may 2 500's be too bright? perhaps one would be better?
 
Daniel, to be clear, can you describe your set-up exactly? And what are the problems as you see them?

I have half an idea of what is going on, but the picture you've posted doesn't quite fit with the way I read your OP.

Thanks.
 
I agree.

Daniel, the problem with your example is that it's so grossly overexposed that we can only guess at the actual problem
In my quick to jump to defense, I had very little time to set up for this shoot
Click to expand...
You have nothing to defend, although you could apologise for your spelling of defence:)
 
Sorry i'm not making a lot of sense, i'll just focus on my main issue....

I can't seem to balance the lighting properly despite setting the flashes on the same settings and standing evenly between them.

87215235.jpg


In the image the badly drawn triangles are the flashes and the line is the background

I basically wondered if the image above (the actual photo) was purely an issue with one flash not being powered high enough or something else?

thanks :)
 
But where are you?
I'm guessing that you are somewhere between the lights and the background.
Why would you want to place a light each side of you? There is only 1 sun outdoors so it isn't a good starting point to have 2 suns indoors.

Leaving that aside, I'm guessing here that you've set the exposure so high to get the background white, and of course the exposure on you is even greater because you are nearer to the background.

If you really want the background to be white, you must light it separately. It is a separate subject. The person you are lighting needs to be lit with a different light, and the brightness of the lights/lens aperture must suit the subject
 
How are you lighting the background? It looks like you have a Lastolite jobbie for backlighting... ?
 
Assuming you want a white background.

First of all, fix your umbrellas :eek: Put one near the background, point it at the centre at 45 degs. Try to get the light coverage as even as possible and the more distance you can get the easier that will be. Just make sure you don't get any spill from the background light on the subject. Put the other light next to the camera, just above and to one side.

The tricky bit is to get the light on the background slightly brighter than the front, so that the white just blows to over exposure - pure white - but not too much. You should aim for half a stop to one stop more than the front.

If you have a flash meter that is easier, but if not I suggest you start with the main front key light and adjust that (using flash output, f/number, ISO) so it is just right. Then switch on the background light and turn it up so that the background is just detectably grey - almost white, but not quite. Then turn the flash up a fraction more so that it blows to pure white, but is not blitzed. If you overdo the background light, it will bleach the edges of your subject and create excessive lens flare which will wash out the image.
 
thanks a lot :) , i know the umbrellas are down as its in 'sitting room mode' at the moment :) and the train/backdrop is at the dry cleaners (people with muddy feet...*mutters*). My main concern is having little ones moving about the place with a flash nearer to them.

I have a group of 9 coming in, in November, should be interesting...

We are currently in the process of selling our house and hopefully, when we move we'll purpose build a studio so it'll be done a lot differently.
 
I think you're confusing terms too which makes it harder to sort your problrm - just by definition you can't have 'lights at the front' producing 'backlighting'! I think you may be confusing backGROUND lighting - which is lighting your white background - and which needs to be done as a subject itself - with backlighting - which is light behind the subject - typically lighting their hair and shoulders and pointing towards the camera position.
 
danieljamesphoto said:
So is the best setup going to be the one brolly and flash behind me in the corner and one flash (without a brolly) pointing at the center of the background over the opposite side to the one behind me?

if that makes sense? sorry it's been a long day and i'm rambling a bit
Click to expand...

More or less, but I'll go a bit further and say don't light the background at all.
As I said, the background needs to be lit as a separate subject, and you're struggling to light one subject at the moment so it makes sense to keep things simple, and to not let lighting mistakes from one of those subjects affect the lighting of the other.

You may of course like white backgrounds, and if so that's fine, but forget about the background until you've learned how to light the foreground subject.
 
danieljamesphoto said:
So is the best setup going to be the one brolly and flash behind me in the corner and one flash (without a brolly) pointing at the center of the background over the opposite side to the one behind me?

if that makes sense? sorry it's been a long day and i'm rambling a bit
Click to expand...

Not quite. As per my previous post #13, place your main subject light next to the camera (not miles away in the corner of the room) just above the subject's head height. The closer you can get that umbrella to the subject, the softer and more attractive the light will be.

Place the second light, with umbrella, inbetween the subject and the background, pointing at the centre of the background at 45 degs. It doesn't matter which side it's on. Basically as far away from the background as you can get it, to even out the light, but not so much that it spills on to the subject.

Adjust the power of the lights so that the background light is giving slight over exposure relative to the main subject light, so that it blows to pure white. But don't blitz it.

This is basic technique for a pure bright white background, okay for single portraits and couples. Anymore people than that and you'll need two lights to get even coverage right across the background - things get much more difficult. For larger groups, I would forget it (you won't be able to see much background anyway).
 
thanks for all the help guys :) i'm watching a few lighting dvds and feel like im constantly being bombarded with learning new things. I want to get the shots right in the camera more and less use of PP really.

I think space is a major issue really when it comes down to it.

Garry:- "don't light the background at all."

by this do you mean simply have one light with the brolly by me above the subject instead of two, or to use the two still?
 
danieljamesphoto said:
thanks for all the help guys :) i'm watching a few lighting dvds and feel like im constantly being bombarded with learning new things. I want to get the shots right in the camera more and less use of PP really.

I think space is a major issue really when it comes down to it.

Garry:- "don't light the background at all."

by this do you mean simply have one light with the brolly by me above the subject instead of two, or to use the two still?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I crossed earlier with Garry's post #17 which may be causing your confusion. Garry is now off-line so...

I think Garry is saying forget trying to get a white background until you have sorted out the main subject. In which case, just use one light, on the subject, positioned just to one side and above head height, and fairly close to the subject. No other lights - one is all you need/want, perhaps with a reflector to fill in the shadow side a little. In this case, the white Lastolite background will be under exposed (because it is further from the light) and will appear grey.

I have been describing a two-light set up to give a white background. Since you are struggling a bit, Garry's advice to get the main subject lighting right, with just one light, is good. When you have got that cracked, moving in a second light should be easy.
 
Also, if you are in a small room (assuming you have light walls) you will get a lot of reflected light bouncing around. So in the long-term you could possibly use a single front light and your other light to light your background. When you do, be careful with your lighting ratios and experiment. Learn what works right eg if you are consistently having to push it by half a stop on photoshop for instance then adjust the lighting so you don't.

www.timothycook.co.uk
 
i think im having one of those 'hate everything' times and questioning my abilities. I just want to reduce the PP time and get it better in the camera.

Strange question but when dealing with strobes what sort of shutter speed am I going to be needing? as researching on flickr etc people are usually around f/9-10 with 1/125 and i'm getting no where near that (usually around 1/30 f/10) unfortunately i haven't got a light meter so its a big game of trial and error. I'm going for the high key effect basically if possible.

I find it really tough to get it right in such a small studio space, there's barely enough space to swing a cat (please note this isn't said from exprience :P)
 
To be honest Daniel, the main problem you have is a slight lack of basic knowledge ;) I know you know that, but you just need to keep trying, don't try to run before you can walk, analyse your results, and learn from them.

Very happy to help, but we need to see your pics with full details of how everything was set up. Post a pic from your one-light-only trial. Getting a pure white background is not easy, especially in a small space, but with just one or two people, head and shoulders only (not too large an area) it can be done, one step at a time.

Why are you adjusting the shutter speed? It has no effect on the flash exposure. 40D x-sync speed is 1/250sec. If you are using a cheap radio trigger, they can have a slight delay in which case you should reduce that 1/200sec or 1/160sec to be absolutely safe. If you go any slower the ambient light from the modelling lights and room lights will start to interfere and introduce a yellow tinge.
 
As mentioned already your shutter speed should never need to drop below 1/125th second.. camera should be on iso 100 then your aperture adjustment and light source power controls are used to adjust the exposure..

Do you have a light meter?
 
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