Electricity saving "game"

[wyx087]

Certainly food for thought.....

I would:

In this winter, expensive fossil fuel would certainly be required to keep the lights on. It is the failing of last couple of decades.

In the near future, build up a lot more wind power is prudent. They are unpredictable but it should no longer be about installing just enough, we need more than enough for once in ten year windless days (as example). The key is to be able to produce enough when conditions are unfavourable. So that cheap energy can be offered to masses of storage that is can be automated (eg. from EV's, home batteries, to grid scale storage)

In the long term, built up a good mix of nuclear, renewable and storage devices to remove expensive peaker plants. Enough nuclear capability to cover once in 50 or 100 year windless days, while storage devices (big and small) are to cover day to day, hour to hour demand variations.

As I always said, it's about getting flexible demand to meet unpredictable supply. Living off the land but use modern solutions to get through harsh times. Whereas today's mentality comes from industrial revolution, aka the start of human induced climate change, it is to adjust (expensive, finite, polluting) supply to meet uncontrolled demand.

 

[Nod]

Human induce climate change started when man first realised that they could herd masses of animals using fire, a year or 2 before the industrial revolution.

 

[jerry12953]

Human induce climate change started when man first realised that they could herd masses of animals using fire, a year or 2 before the industrial revolution.

Weeelllll....... yeeeessss.........

Bearing in mind that fire is a natural part of certain ecosystems, the contribution that that kind of activity has made to climate change is somewhat limited....... The massive burning of fossil fuels since the industrial revolution and particularly in the last 50 years ( I would say) is far more relevant.

CanonDave made some good points in his post on the previous page. They are very difficult questions and we are in a very difficult situation. How do you stop the fossil fuel juggernaut? But when scientists say that we must leave all the remaining fossil fuels actually in the ground, you've just got to heed what they are saying - and not continue to extract as much as possible.

 

[whiteflyer]

So far that's £5,34 off my bill at some point, the 1 hour sessions are easy but now it's 2 hours ones, if they go to 3 hour sessions that'll be hard to do.

 

[wyx087]

Wow, did you turn off from breaker or something? 99% saved!

For my last 2 hr session:
You saved 0.653kWh, which earned you 1176 OctoPoints – worth £1.47

Total around £4.4 so far.



On topic of being a more flexible demand, I'm hopefully getting on Indra V2H trial in next few months for my 8 years old Nissan Leaf.

Recently uploaded very informative video on V2x:

View: https://youtu.be/oKTtERemK8A

 

[wyx087]

Email from Octopus energy founder:

This evening, coal-fired power stations are on standby to deliver extra power, should it be needed to balance the grid.

This means every kWh saved in today’s Saving Session from 5-6pm will make a real difference in reducing our need for dirty fuel.

Whatever you do, even if not on demand flexibility service (aka Octopus saving session), please try your best to reduce your use during peak hours today.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Email from Octopus energy founder:


Whatever you do, even if not on demand flexibility service (aka Octopus saving session), please try your best to reduce your use during peak hours today.

I received no such email from them. As it happened I consumed no grid electricity during that period (confirmed by my smart meter data) but I won't be getting any points.

 

[Sangoma]

The first time Octopus did it, I saved quite a bit, but now the times fall outside our usage times.
The first time I turned the mains off, we have 12V LED lighting, and battery backup for the router, I heated the house up just before the time period so the boiler didn't need to run.

Thinking of changing our daily peak to match the national daily peak so that I can benefit from the saving sessions

 

[robj20]

Email from Octopus energy founder:


Whatever you do, even if not on demand flexibility service (aka Octopus saving session), please try your best to reduce your use during peak hours today.

No chance at those times for us. Can't alter everyone's life around these times.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Email from Octopus energy founder:


Whatever you do, even if not on demand flexibility service (aka Octopus saving session), please try your best to reduce your use during peak hours today.

I wonder how long it will be before they pay more than 4p/kwH for us to discharge our batteries back to the grid?

No chance at those times for us. Can't alter everyone's life around these times.

Out of interest, how much would they have to pay to make it worth your while?

 

[robj20]

I wonder how long it will be before they pay more than 4p/kwH for us to discharge our batteries back to the grid?

Out of interest, how much would they have to pay to make it worth your while?

To the point where I stop the children doing their homework on the computer, or feeding them hot food.
Food I guess we could eat cold stuff.l, not really going to start eating right before bed at 7pm.
Homework wise of have to have a way of powering a computer or have them wake up early and do it before school.
Do I want to not play on my PlayStation or PC after a hard day's work. Not so sure it's my way of relaxing.

 

[wyx087]

Again today 4:30 to 6pm. I'm sure we all make an effort, we can collectively save enough to prevent drawing loads from expensive and super polluting coal plants.

It's really about knowing what is happening with the grid and doing what you can. Most importantly NOT doing optional stuff such as washing machine, dryer and dish washer during that time. No point picking on people who cannot shift their load......

I received no such email from them. As it happened I consumed no grid electricity during that period (confirmed by my smart meter data) but I won't be getting any points.

That's probably because you haven't signed up to "saving sessions".

Thinking of changing our daily peak to match the national daily peak so that I can benefit from the saving sessions

I'm sure you understand, that's not going to help in grand scheme of things. As in, grand scheme of everyone getting cheaper energy and reduce reliance on fossil fuel.

 

[Sangoma]

I'm sure you understand, that's not going to help in grand scheme of things. As in, grand scheme of everyone getting cheaper energy and reduce reliance on fossil fuel.

Yes, of course, it just shows another way that these schemes won't help in the long run.

The only way to be sure of limiting demand is planned load shedding, ie switch off the power to areas on a rotational basis.

The whole problem has been on the horizon for years, just been made more obvious and sooner by the current situation

 

[JonathanRyan]

To the point where I stop the children doing their homework on the computer, or feeding them hot food.
Food I guess we could eat cold stuff.l, not really going to start eating right before bed at 7pm.
Homework wise of have to have a way of powering a computer or have them wake up early and do it before school.
Do I want to not play on my PlayStation or PC after a hard day's work. Not so sure it's my way of relaxing.

But you would figure out a way for say £1000, right?

The payout is getting bigger. Other people will have a lower number they are happy with.

 

[robj20]

But you would figure out a way for say £1000, right?

The payout is getting bigger. Other people will have a lower number they are happy with.

Well yes £1000 would buy a laptop for their homework.
But that amount will never happen. In an ideal world they should heavily subsidise home batteries and have them charge off-peak to be used at peak times.

I'd have solar and batteries in a heart beat but at my age the return on investment I'd have to live to an insane age.

 

[ecoleman]

Again today 4:30 to 6pm. I'm sure we all make an effort, we can collectively save enough to prevent drawing loads from expensive and super polluting coal plants.

Knock yourself out. I pay a fortune for electricity now so it's up to them to deliver, not me.
It's not me who decided that wind and solar in Great Britain was a good idea.

 

[ecoleman]

The only way to be sure of limiting demand is planned load shedding, ie switch off the power to areas on a rotational basis.

You can tell you're from SA. Don't give them any ideas

 

[JonathanRyan]

Knock yourself out. I pay a fortune for electricity now so it's up to them to deliver, not me.
It's not me who decided that wind and solar in Great Britain was a good idea.

We all pay a lot for electricity. But they are offering you 10 times as much not to buy it.

Knock yourself out. Or don't.

 

[robj20]

Even with everyone's effort the grid right now sits at 57.4% fossil fuels.

 

[Sangoma]

Even with everyone's effort the grid right now sits at 57.4% fossil fuels.

Thers's no wind, and surprise, no sun at the moment

 

[robj20]

Thers's no wind, and surprise, no sun at the moment

14.5% wind.
Only 11% nuclear is the main reason we're in the s..t. We should have the capacity to do 100% nuclear.

Were actually trying really hard tonight to save, of it's only pennies I earn from this it definitely isn't worth it.

 

[Sangoma]

14.5% wind.
Only 11% nuclear is the main reason we're in the s..t. We should have the capacity to do 100% nuclear.

Were actually trying really hard tonight to save, of it's only pennies I earn from this it definitely isn't worth it.

Several opportunities have been missed.
Small reactors would be the ideal solution for the UK because of lack of grid capacity.
SA was supposed to bring pebble bed reactors online in 2010, but that was shelved because of interference from the "biggest" country in the world, and political problems in SA.

We have the RR modular system, which would serve the same purpose, but that has only just got half going and will be another 10 years!

Fusion is hardly any nearer to reality than it was when I did A levels in '72, and big plants take years to build even without all the squabbling.

We are trying too, I turned the main switch off at 16:28, but it has made no difference to activities here

 

[robj20]

I looked up the previous two days and between 16:00 and 18:00 or average usage for the 2 hours is 0.45kwh.
So at best I can save that, which is what less than £2.

 

[whiteflyer]

My seventh session

#candlelight

 

[hunnymonster]

14.5% wind.
Only 11% nuclear is the main reason we're in the s..t. We should have the capacity to do 100% nuclear.

Were actually trying really hard tonight to save, of it's only pennies I earn from this it definitely isn't worth it.

Just you wait - when we're "all" on Smart Meters there will be more or less compulsory demand sensitive pricing (ie you use at peak, you will pay peak prices) - if we can smooth the peaks out the most expensive (and polluting) generators must fall by the wayside. The risible amount you get as an incentive is simply a nudge to turn around a supertanker.

Throwing up your hands and saying "it's too hard" is not a.sustainable solution, the alternative to peak management as a nation is being forced to pay for more generation capacity that will lie idle for 20+ hours per day is not a great idea either. You can bet if it costs a billion quid to build they will stick at least two on our bills. If you must use electricity at peak times - pay for the consequences.

As a nation we need to rethink how we use electricity (and how it is generated) - both of which feed in to how much it costs per kWh at any given time of day to consume it.

 

[robj20]

Just you wait - when we're "all" on Smart Meters there will be more or less compulsory demand sensitive pricing (ie you use at peak, you will pay peak prices) - if we can smooth the peaks out the most expensive (and polluting) generators must fall by the wayside. The risible amount you get as an incentive is simply a nudge to turn around a supertanker.

Throwing up your hands and saying "it's too hard" is not a.sustainable solution, the alternative to peak management as a nation is being forced to pay for more generation capacity that will lie idle for 20+ hours per day is not a great idea either. You can bet if it costs a billion quid to build they will stick at least two on our bills. If you must use electricity at peak times - pay for the consequences.

As a nation we need to rethink how we use electricity (and how it is generated) - both of which feed in to how much it costs per kWh at any given time of day to consume it.

Yeah we should all use candles instead. Save the planet.

I'm happy to pay peak pricing. My heating is 90% free anyway. No way I'm sitting in the dark to save a few pence.

 

[Deleted member 68495]

We could save an absolute fortune in our house. We hit one breaker and out go the kitchen lights, the microwave, the fridge, two freezers, a large fish tank pump and heater, a pond pump and the TV. We could knock 400w per hour off our consumption. Only one problem. We are with Bulb and while at some point in the future we will become Octopus customers, for now, we have no way of getting involved.

Our consumption is quite high, usually running to about 1 KW every two hours. It's the fish tank that does it, it's a 700 litre, six foot long, tank with a 300w heater and two pumps pulling 50w between them. It's our choice and we can afford it but it would be nice to join in with this new power-diversion effort; we could quite easily knock everything off for a couple of hours without ill-effect.

We are fortunate indeed that we have no dependency on gas or electricity for our heating as we have a multi-fuel stove on which we burn anthracite. I have two tons stockpiled in the garden, enough until Spring 2024. It's always warm here.

 

[ecoleman]

We all pay a lot for electricity. But they are offering you 10 times as much not to buy it.

Knock yourself out. Or don't.

Who cares, it’s still a quid here and a quid there. Really not worth it and stuffed if I’m installing a smart meter

 

[ecoleman]

Just you wait - when we're "all" on Smart Meters there will be more or less compulsory demand sensitive pricing (ie you use at peak, you will pay peak prices) - if we can smooth the peaks out the most expensive (and polluting) generators must fall by the wayside. The risible amount you get as an incentive is simply a nudge to turn around a supertanker.

Throwing up your hands and saying "it's too hard" is not a.sustainable solution, the alternative to peak management as a nation is being forced to pay for more generation capacity that will lie idle for 20+ hours per day is not a great idea either. You can bet if it costs a billion quid to build they will stick at least two on our bills. If you must use electricity at peak times - pay for the consequences.

As a nation we need to rethink how we use electricity (and how it is generated) - both of which feed in to how much it costs per kWh at any given time of day to consume it.

Here a novel idea, stop thinking we can run everything on bloody electricity.

They want to ban gas boilers and run our heating on electricity, they want to ban ice cars and run them on electricity.

This country is simply run by stupid people who think they’re going to save the world.

 

[robj20]

Here a novel idea, stop thinking we can run everything on bloody electricity.

They want to ban gas boilers and run our heating on electricity, they want to ban ice cars and run them on electricity.

This country is simply run by stupid people who think they’re going to save the world.

Couldn't agree more.
Use more electric but save electric at the same time.
They think we all have solar and batteries.

I mean my neighbor half the time is sat in the dark with his coat on in the house, it's ridiculous.

 

[Sangoma]

the alternative to peak management as a nation is being forced to pay for more generation capacity

It is not the only alternative, here is another, the times are the times the power is off completely.



And you don't need a smart meter to reduce load, a remote controlled switch can be fitted where a signal is sent through the supply to disconnect cookers, water heaters, electric showers and other high current equipment. Not much cheaper, but there is an alternative.

The other way is to reduce the maximum current each household can draw. Most now are 100A, but reducing that to 30-40A would have a major effect. If you want a 100A supply, you pay a much bigger standing charge. And it would be simple and relatively cheap to implement.

 

[hunnymonster]

Ok - it's the only alternative unless you have a supplier like Eishkom. They've been at the loadshedding thing for at least a decade...

 

[Sangoma]

Ok - it's the only alternative unless you have a supplier like Eishkom. They've been at the loadshedding thing for at least a decade...

True, but we are close to running out of capacity, which would then put us in the same bracket as them (for different problems), and in fact for the same reason, ignoring the problem until it is too late.

Get rid of gas boilers and use more electricity, get rid of ICE cars, and use more electricity, electrify blast furnaces and use more electricity etc etc.

There are two problems here, lack of generation capacity (unless we start up all the old coal plants and open new mines) and lack of distribution capacity.

I think because of the climate here, the first to suffer will be industry, as they will have to keep power to households, hospitals, accommodation etc.

One of the worst things at the moment is people saying and thinking it will never happen and continuing to delay solution building.

 

[robj20]

One thing I don't get. For that hour and a half last night where they wanted to avoid using coal.
Why did Dinorwig go almost unused?

 

[Sangoma]

One thing I don't get. For that hour and a half last night where they wanted to avoid using coal.
Why did Dinorwig go almost unused?

Possibly as it is kept in reserve when there is nothing left elsewhere?

 

[wyx087]

One thing I don't get. For that hour and a half last night where they wanted to avoid using coal.
Why did Dinorwig go almost unused?

For most of last week and this week, there hasn't been much wind. May be pumped hydro had been used up by end of last week.
Then it's a judgement call by grid, if it's more polluting to charge up Dinorwig using gas or put coal plants on standby.

Of course, we all know least polluting method is to not have the peak demand. The grid is paying over £4 per kWh to cut demand, just shows how much peak price skews the average tariff everyone has to pay.

Use more electric but save electric at the same time.

There are two problems here, lack of generation capacity (unless we start up all the old coal plants and open new mines) and lack of distribution capacity.

It's not about overall usage/capacity. It's all about time of use:
Use more electricity during off peak times, please, sometimes we even pay you to use.
Save electricity at peak times.
Not at same time

The other way is to reduce the maximum current each household can draw. Most now are 100A, but reducing that to 30-40A would have a major effect. If you want a 100A supply, you pay a much bigger standing charge. And it would be simple and relatively cheap to implement.

This would work on some degree, but would not help the electrification of stuff. They want us to use MORE during off-peak periods, so 100 A fuse will help with that.

Norway has a similar but better idea: you pay less if you demand less from the grid during a certain period. For example, you pay cheapest price per kWh for that period if you don't exceed 7 kW during that period, you pay mid tier price if you consumption don't exceed 15 kW, and you pay most most expensive price even if your consumption exceeds 15 kW for just 1 second during that period. Easy to understand, simple to keep costs down (turn off oven momentarily to use kettle) and doesn't impact the less well-off.

 

[Sangoma]

Agreed, but peak and average apply to a lot things and situations in life, and you need to plan for the peaks as there are many times when you can't plan the peaks.

Changing times of domestic and industrial use may well help most of the time, but there will be times when that falls down, then if you can't meet the demand, there will be a problem.

And it can come so easily, and happen so quickly, there will be no stopping a major loss of power.

Unfortunately you can't plan on averages with no contingency plans for the unplanned, that is exactly what got us into the current situation.

 

[wyx087]

Yes, big freezes will always put strain on the grid and they need the capacity to meet the peak demands. I believe those coal plants on stand-by are the contingency.

But that' doesn't remove the need for general population to reduce their demand during the peak period wherever possible. For example, running washing machine during 4-7pm is just selfish.

 

[jerry12953]

Yes, big freezes will always put strain on the grid and they need the capacity to meet the peak demands. I believe those coal plants on stand-by are the contingency.

But that' doesn't remove the need for general population to reduce their demand during the peak period wherever possible. For example, running washing machine during 4-7pm is just selfish.

The key word in your post is right at the end. We ALL know there's a real crisis coming up and it is selfish not to do all we can to try to avoid it. There is far too much "I'm alright Jack" in this world.

 

[Nod]

That can be the only time possible - between getting home and putting the kids to bed. Or should the wives stay at home to do all the chores?